Reincarnation and Catholicism

[water]

Do we really know what He looked like the first time?

He was a Jewish When He died on the Cross, He was 33 years old, with holes in His Hands and Feet. Well, when we all see Him face-to-face, everything will be very clear to us, right now, we are ‘looking through a glass’.

 

[Ahimsa]

Ohh, hehe, you’re tricky.
I hope one day we all have the same faith and belief. I am praying for it everyday. I am glad that you are believing in Christ. I probably read some info on the belief of “Hindu Christianity” and hopefully we can have some more discussions - or I can welcome you to start a new thread on other Hindu beliefs that you hold.

Thanks. I might do that from time to time.:yup:

 

[water]

Thanks. I might do that from time to time.:yup:

That would be great, but if it takes you too long to start, I will

It was nice discussing with you, Ahimsa.

 

[Ahimsa]

That would be great, but if it takes you too long to start, I will

It was nice discussing with you, Ahimsa.

Same here, Water.

 

[Mr.Ex_Nihilo]

Yes, the CCC says that there is just one birth and one death (that is, physical birth and physical death on earth). But is there a way in which reincarnation might be consistent with Catholic thought?

Hypothesis: Reincarnation existed in the pre-Christian world, and when Christ came, Christ ended the reincarnation process totally.

Could someone hold such a view, and be within the Catholic framework?

I don’t think anything with either the Hebrew or Christian Scriptures would point towards reincarnation. If it does, it would have to be interpretted so losely so as to lose its meaning.

The only thing that I can think of in terms of a reincarnation-like concept is the idea of Christ dying so that his spirit could live within us by the Holy Spirit. Certainly, Jesus died so that his spirit might live in those who believe.

But, even then, this would be a probably constitute a gross distortion of Christian teachings done specifically to conform to the idea of reincarnation. More importantly, Jesus did not stay dead. In fact, he rose from the dead.

So if indeed someone wanted to recast his presense living within us as a form of reincarantion of his spirit within all who believe in him, it would certainly be the bizarrest form of reincarnaiton yet conceived.

Can someone be reincarnated before they die?

Can someone be reincarnated while they’re still alive?

Can someone’s future spirit be reincarnated into a past body?

I know that there are some wild theories for the ‘transmigration of the soul’ within Hinduism and Buddhism. But one Divine Person dying and rising again so that he may share his spirit with all people who believe in him – past, present and future – would represent a significant departure from the standard ideas of reincarnation that I’ve read.

In most cases that I’ve read about reincarnation, it seems as those the claims have rarely been verified in historical records. The claims seem to be made without any possible way to verify what’s actually been claimed.

Personally, if there is any truth to reincarnation, it would seem to me more related to angelic or demonic spirits which have been around since creation began.

Over the many thousands of years since modern humans have appeared on earth, these spiritual beings would have had ample time to observe humanity be in possession of a long memory of human events that they could relay to later generations.

Certain more subtle cases of demonic possession seem to have characteristics which are similar to accounts of reincarnation. In other cultures, it remains possible, that certain angelic revelations may have been distorted by the cultural bias and recast into a kind of reincarnation account.

In other words, if some who were contacted by these spiritual beings mistook these ‘contemporary revelations’ for ‘past memories’ they shared with their ancestors, they could erroneously conclude that their souls lived in the past in another body.

Another factor that might explain some reincarnation-like phenomena is that, in certain odd conditions, perhaps it’s possible to inherit memories from previous ancestors. In other words, the soul of their ancestor would have long departed, but, in some strange way, perhaps their memories were encoded in some off way in the genetic make-up.

In this later biological sense, the only Scriptural reference I could give which ‘might’ indicate this, could be this…
Hebrews 7:8-10:

In the one case, the tenth is collected by men who die; but in the other case, by him who is declared to be living.

One might even say that Levi, who collects the tenth, paid the tenth through Abraham, because when Melchizedek met Abraham, Levi was still in the body of his ancestor.

On the whole, I’m in agreement with G.K. Chesterton on this…

But Reincarnation is not really a mystical idea. It is not really a transcendental idea, or in that sense a religious idea. Mysticism conceives something transcending experience; religion seeks glimpses of a better good or a worse evil than experience can give. Reincarnation need only extend experiences in the sense of repeating them. It is no more transcendental for a man to remember what he did in Babylon before he was born than to remember what be did in Brixton before he had a knock on the head. His successive lives need not be any more than human lives, under whatever limitations burden human life. It has nothing to do with seeing God or even conjuring up the devil. In other words, reincarnation as such does not necessarily escape from the wheel of destiny; in some sense it is the wheel of destiny. And whether it was something that Buddha founded, or something that Buddha found, or something that Buddha entirely renounced when he found, it is certainly something having the general character of that Asiatic atmosphere in which be had to play his part. And the part be played was that of an intellectual philosopher with a particular theory about the right intellectual attitude towards it.

 

[Ahimsa]

I don’t think anything with either the Hebrew or Christian Scriptures would point towards reincarnation.

Tell that to Hasidic Jews.

 

[ALotLessThumb]

Hasdic Judaism does believe in reincarnation (or at least a lot of them do) but I believe that this argument is neither here nor there due to the wide range of beliefs held on the afterlife in Judaic practices (if the poster, Valke2, were to read this thread, I hope he could give insight on these beliefs.)

When I studied Judaism, the gentleman who directed those studies was Hasidic himself, and he espoused these beliefs; but he also stressed that what happened at the end wasn’t necessarily important, it was doing the right thing now that should be more of a concern. And (unless I am mistaken) that is the general message to come out of all corners of Judaism in some form or another. The Hasdic belief in reincarnation is very complex and more nuanced, in my opinion, than other philosophical and theological systems that believe in the transmigration of souls.

Even with all of that, it is hard to read reincarnation into Catholicism, or say that it actually existed pre-Incarnation. With very few exceptions, the very idea has never had any real support in the Church. If reincarnation existed at one point- it is the kind of thing that would have been mentioned. (for example, it would have been important for the Gospel writings to note that Christ defeated the cyclic rebirth of souls than just simplying rising from the dead.

 

[Contarini]

Yes, the CCC says that there is just one birth and one death (that is, physical birth and physical death on earth). But is there a way in which reincarnation might be consistent with Catholic thought?

Hypothesis: Reincarnation existed in the pre-Christian world, and when Christ came, Christ ended the reincarnation process totally.

Could someone hold such a view, and be within the Catholic framework?

I’ve toyed with something like this–my version was that reincarnation is what happens if you have not decisively either accepted or rejected the Gospel. But I don’t think it works. There are probably a number of reasons, but the clincher for me is that it implies a body-soul dualism that I don’t think is compatible with orthodox Christianity. Souls are not the sort of thing that can just be plugged into a bunch of different bodies. The soul-body is a unique compound, and its separation is a temporary thing. A soul without a body is a ghost that yearns for its body–not any body but the body proper to it. I don’t think one can maintain strict soul-body dualism without making nonsense of orthodox Christian eschatology.

I don’t think the Buddhist version is compatible with Christianity either, because it denies the existence of a permanent self.

I think we may have had this argument before. . . .

It’s certainly an issue worth debating (especially relevant for me since I’m teaching Religions of the World this coming semester).

Edwin

 

[wcknight]

When I was a lapsed Catholic and just about totally nuts (they literally sent me to a loony bin for a week), I thought reincarnation was viable.

But when I became semi lucid and thought I had died and did not reincarnate into anything else, I became totally convinced that this was not the case.

At that point I thought I had died was doomed to h*** in an institution… very depressing !!!.

I think there is just about 0 probability of reincarnation. Otherwise one of the many saints would have mentioned it. Besides who in their right mind would ever want to have to go through another lifetime of pain, suffering and uncertainty.

 

[Contarini]

On the whole, I’m in agreement with G.K. Chesterton on this…

I am too, and I don’t think Chesterton’s argument really pertains to the Eastern version. What Chesterton didn’t know about Eastern religions was pretty vast (Chesterton admitted this, though he added, illogically in my opinion, that he didn’t like what he knew–he clearly didn’t know enough to have a meaningful opinion one way or the other). Chesterton did, however, have a lot of experience of British proto-New-Age circles (you can read about this in his Autobiography). New Agers do think reincarnation is a mystical idea.

I suppose it is insofar as it presupposes the existence of a soul, which is the truly mystical idea. But Hinduism and Buddhism don’t claim that there’s anything particularly special about having past lives in and of itself (as Chesterton suggests, this belief was just part of the cultural equipment of ancient India). What is mystical is the *transcendence *of the cycle of reincarnation and the achievement of Brahma or Nirvana (or more temporary states that are foretastes of this ultimate liberation).

Edwin

 

[Ahimsa]

I’m not suggesting that Catholicism change its current teachings. Nor, am I suggesting that one need believe in reincarnation to be Catholic, only that (properly understood) such belief could be seen as non-inconsistent with Catholic teaching.

For instance, in Hindu thought (I’ll just pick one particular tradition from South India, a Shaiva school), a ‘person’ is always constituted of a ‘body’ and ‘mind’ (or ‘soul’). Reincarnation, then, would actually be a misnomer (which is par for the course when Western terms are used to described Hindu or Buddhist ideas). After death, the ‘mind’ (or ‘soul’) would not exist separately from a ‘body’ – it’s just that the ‘body’ just after death is a subtle body, just as real (to the person who has died) as a physical body is to us. Therefore, then, there would be nothing to "re-"incarnate, since the ‘mind’/‘soul’ had never become "dis-"carnate to begin with.

The problem with previous Christian rejections of reincarnation is that they dealt primarily with Greek notions. Now, I admire the Greek philosophical and scientific tradition as much as the next theistic evolutionist, but the Indic traditions possessed (and possess) a more finely nuanced and technical elaboration of noetic, transsomatic, and transmortem experiences. For instance, the Greeks rejected the concept of bodily resurrection, whereas for Indic traditions, resurrection, along with reincarnation, are part of their heritage.

I could go on, but I’ll stop for now.

 

[Mr.Ex_Nihilo]

Tell that to Hasidic Jews.

But how does that pertain to reincarnation and Catholicism?

For that matter, many other Jews disagree with these Hasidic Jewish teaching-- so they certainly don’t speak for all Jews as far as I can tell.

 

[Ahimsa]

But how does that pertain to reincarnation and Catholicism?

For that matter, many other Jews disagree with these Hasidic Jewish teaching-- so they certainly don’t speak for all Jews as far as I can tell.

You claimed that the Hebrew scriptures would not point to reincarnation. Just wanted to clarify on that particular point.

 

[Mr.Ex_Nihilo]

I am too, and I don’t think Chesterton’s argument really pertains to the Eastern version. What Chesterton didn’t know about Eastern religions was pretty vast (Chesterton admitted this, though he added, illogically in my opinion, that he didn’t like what he knew–he clearly didn’t know enough to have a meaningful opinion one way or the other). Chesterton did, however, have a lot of experience of British proto-New-Age circles (you can read about this in his Autobiography). New Agers do think reincarnation is a mystical idea.

I suppose it is insofar as it presupposes the existence of a soul, which is the truly mystical idea. But Hinduism and Buddhism don’t claim that there’s anything particularly special about having past lives in and of itself (as Chesterton suggests, this belief was just part of the cultural equipment of ancient India). What is mystical is the *transcendence *of the cycle of reincarnation and the achievement of Brahma or Nirvana (or more temporary states that are foretastes of this ultimate liberation).

Edwin

The only other Catholic teaching that could even remotely be connected with reincarnation is perhaps the the idea of the bilocation of the saints. In this sense, moving purely in the Spirit, they are somehow, by God’s grace, able to be in more than one place at once.

Now whether this kind of bilocation could extend beyond the ‘temporal confines’ of the saint’s life, extending before or after the saint physically lived and died, would be extremely debatable. I’m not aware of any Catholic teachings which remotely reflect this possibility-- except perhaps the communion of the saints.

But, if it is possible, I suppose that one could loosely say that some may have moved in the spirit of an ancestor, just as John the Baptist moved in the spirit and power of Elijah. Again, I think this would be a gross distortion of what the Scriptural record actually revealed if one were to claim that this meant any kind of reincarnation-- and it would certainly go contrary to any teachings the early fathers taught regarding the coming of John the Baptist.

Lastly, in the sense of the communion of saints, all being alive in Christ, I suppose that once again one could point toward a loosely spoken of kind of reincarnation. But even that is pushing the parameters of Christian revelation far past anything ever taught by the early fathers-- and I think it would certainly be considered a heresy if not an outright apostasy from Christian revelation.

Again if all are alive in Christ, if Christ is indeed our very life, then this would indicate that one man was reincarnated into billions of lives throughout the ages-- and yet this one man is still alive so he was able to reincarnate into billions while still alive-- and in heaven even. This kind of thought does not appear to exist within the various forms of reincarnation that I’m aware of. If this were true, then it would imply that Christ himself is the living embodiment of The Absolute– something which no doctrine of reincanation, except perhaps that of the ‘oversoul’, ever dared to teach let alone even think of.

 

[Mr.Ex_Nihilo]

You claimed that the Hebrew scriptures would not point to reincarnation. Just wanted to clarify on that particular point.

Yes. But this is apparently a teaching within Hasidic Judaism, a retrofit teaching at that which doesn’t seem to be very present within the earliest Jewish writings that I’m aware of.

Many people can reinterpret a particular passage in order to conform to later thoughts. But Orthodox Judaism (what I consider to be the modern form of Judaism which remains closest to the Pharisaic thoughts portrayed in Jesus’ age) certainly does not allow such teachings. They never did as far as I can tell.

I’m not as familiar with Reform and Conservative forms of Judaism. But, even then, at least within Conservative branches, the teaching appears to be lacking as well.

Perhaps Valke2 could advise us on Reform Judaism’s thoughts about reincarnaiton if he has a chance. If they are present within Reform Judaism, I suspect these teaching would reflect a minority within these schools of thought. And, again, I suspect that they would be hard pressed to find many ancient Judaic writings which were approved by Rabbical schools of thought and actually supported this view of supposedly Jewish reincarnations.

Just saying.

 

[Ahimsa]

Again if all are alive in Christ, if Christ is indeed our very life, then this would indicate that one man was reincarnated into billions of lives throughout the ages-- and yet this one man is still alive so he was able to reincarnate into billions while still alive-- and in heaven even. This kind of thought does not appear to exist within the various forms of reincarnation that I’m aware of. If this were true, then it would imply that Christ himself is the living embodiment of The Absolute– something which no doctrine of reincanation, except perhaps that of the ‘oversoul’, ever dared to teach let alone even think of.

Actually, the idea that one soul can be in a heavenly realm, and also reincarnate on earth, is explicit in the Tibetan traditions; and, I would suggest, implicit in certain Hindu traditions. Certain West African traditions also have some idea of this double “reincarnation/non-reincarnation” after-death process – one part of the soul reincarnates, another part does not.

 

[Ahimsa]

Yes. But this is apparently a teaching within Hasidic Judaism, a retrofit teaching at that which doesn’t seem to be very present within the earliest Jewish writings that I’m aware of.

Do you think Hasid is a valid expression of Jewish faith?

 

[Mr.Ex_Nihilo]

Do you think Hasid is a valid expression of Jewish faith?

I think there’s many valid teachings within Hasdic Judaism. Reincarnation isn’t one of them though. It doesn’t seem to appear in Jewish literature until after A.D. 1000 as far as I can tell. Likewise, at one time is was beleived by some that one could be reincarnated into an animal for example. But this has since mostly dissapeared. For those Jews who do hold to some kind of reincarnation doctrine today, it seems to be a belief of strictly human to human enfleshment.

While there are Hasidic Jews who do believe this, the greatest number of Orthodox Jews who reject the concept of reincarnation include students of Maimonides (the Rambam), among Dor Daim, and among Gaonists. One can also find Orthodox Jews who deny the compatibility of reincarnation with Judaism among segments of Modern Orthodox Judaism too.

The idea is not found in the Hebrew Scriptures, except where people have later reinterpretted certain sacred texts in order to make the Hebrew Scriptures conform to these eastern teachings.

 

[Contarini]

Yes. But this is apparently a teaching within Hasidic Judaism, a retrofit teaching at that which doesn’t seem to be very present within the earliest Jewish writings that I’m aware of.

Many people can reinterpret a particular passage in order to conform to later thoughts. But Orthodox Judaism (what I consider to be the modern form of Judaism which remains closest to the Pharisaic thoughts portrayed in Jesus’ age) certainly does not allow such teachings. They never did as far as I can tell.

That makes no sense. You implicitly admit in your later post that many medieval Jews believed in reincarnation (you imply that Maimonides rejected it, which may well be true but I’d like to see a citation). These were obviously Orthodox Jews, because nothing else existed (except for the Karaites and Samaritans). Orthodox Judaism today, like most of the more liberal denominations, has become more rationalistic and has purged out many of the mystical elements that existed in the past.

Kabbalism, which appears to go along with a belief in reincarnation for the most part, *was *mainstream, Orthodox Judaism until the 18th century. The Kabbalistic elements in Hasidism (including belief in reincarnation) are not some novelty peculiar to Hasidism but are part of the earlier Jewish heritage that the Hasidim kept when many other Jews abandoned it.

That at least is what I was taught in the one class I took on Judaism, a class that focused on Jewish mysticism. Certainly the professor had an axe to grind (and arguably even the great Gershom Scholem, whose work we read in that class, did as well–in a sense everyone does). So I’m open to hearing an alternative paradigm. But the view I’ve just sketched fits all the evidence about Jewish history I’ve run into.

In Christ,

Edwin

 

[nkelly]

Hello Ahimsa.

Yes, the CCC says that there is just one birth and one death (that is, physical birth and physical death on earth). But is there a way in which reincarnation might be consistent with Catholic thought?

Absolutely not! Re-incarnation would make the Passion of our Lord and Saviour un-necessary. If re-incarnation were true, it would mean that we could save ourselves from damnation by our OWN efforts. Jesus didn’t die for the fun of it! It’s also beleived by many that Jesus’ death wiped out a whole heap of Karma which again is utter nonsense.

Hypothesis: Reincarnation existed in the pre-Christian world, and when Christ came, Christ ended the reincarnation process totally.

It never did exist and so it never ended! It’s a doctrine of the devil!

Could someone hold such a view, and be within the Catholic framework?

No!

Much to my own regret, I used to believe in reincarnation and then I had my eyes opened one day…

God bless,
Noel.