Reincarnation Reasons Pro or Con?

[Ahimsa]

Hello,

I know that the essential reason Catholics have for rejecting reincarnation is that it is rejected by the Church. But I would like to know, are there any other reasons to reject reincarnation?

I should give a definition of “reincarnation”: the idea that the soul – after a brief or long period of time spent in a spiritual world – may enter into a physical form again (a human form, most likely, but not necessarily).

Ahimsa

 

[Exporter]

Catholics have three authorities: the Bible, the Traditions of the Early Fathers and the Holy Spirit who acts through the Magisterium today.

It is contrary to any of the three aformentioned authorities that a soul comes back to the earth. It is written that after death the soul of man has one of three destinations: Heaven, Purgatory or Hell. Christians universally belive the soul of the desceased never returns to earth.

 

[RobedWithLight]

Reincarnation is rejected by the Church because it contradicts the teaching on the Resurrection, for as Scripture says “It is appointed for men to die once”, and that in the last days, the dead shall rise again for Final judgment,as the book of Revelation clearly affirms.

Reincanation on the other hand, speaks nothing about the resurrection of the dead, and in fact contradicts it, by referring to the body as a worn-out garment to be cast away at death, and makes no further mention of it. It then speaks about the soul inhabiting a “new” body after death, a process that may be repeated many times, like what the Bhagavad Gita clearly says:

       * Worn out garments are shed by the body*

•        Worn out bodies are shed by the dweller.*

However, the relationship of the soul to the body is far more intimate and profound than the mere relationship of garment to the body. When a garment(your clothes) are removed, your clothes do not automatically decay. But when the soul leaves the body, the body corrupts.

Or, as a better analogy, reincarnationists compare the relationship of soul with body with that of a driver and his car. Just as our soul "drives our body, the driver likewise “drives” the automobile. The problem is that when the driver leaves the car, the car does not corrupt, but the body does decay when the soul leaves it at death.

Those who view reincarnation as a form of “second chance” for the soul to make amends for past sins (the popular view), the question must be asked, why is it we don’t remember our past lives? If we cannot remember them, how can you correct them?

If reincarnation is true, that after death, one is reborn, then mathematically, there must be exactly one birth for every death that occurs, that is, if there are five billion people alive now then, there should likewise be five billion people alive a thousand years ago, and there would still be the same number of people alive a thousand years hence. The problem is that there are more human beings alive now than there were a hundred, five hundred or a thousand years ago. How do we account for this imbalance then?

Gerry

 

[Greg_McPherran]

I don’t even need to think about it because my life is to follow Jesus. As soon as I even consider it, I find it unworthy of thought.

 

[Ahimsa]

Exporter:

Catholics have three authorities: the Bible, the Traditions of the Early Fathers and the Holy Spirit who acts through the Magisterium today.

It is contrary to any of the three aformentioned authorities that a soul comes back to the earth. It is written that after death the soul of man has one of three destinations: Heaven, Purgatory or Hell. Christians universally belive the soul of the desceased never returns to earth.

Exporter,

I agree that the three authorities teach those ideas. But can those ideas also be supported by logic, or experience, or other ways? Or are those ideas only supported by authority?

Ahimsa

 

[Ahimsa]

RobedWithLight:

Reincanation on the other hand, speaks nothing about the resurrection of the dead

RobedWithLight,

Reincarnation simply refers to the notion that it is possible to take a human birth again, after death. This does not mean that this reincarnation process will never come to an end, nor that resurrection of some sort can’t be a way to end it.

However, the relationship of the soul to the body is far more intimate and profound than the mere relationship of garment to the body.

I agree with this. That particular Gita quote was simplifying things. But if you read the Gita further – not to mention other Hindu scriptures – you’ll find that it too gives a much more profound explanation of the relationship between soul and body.

Those who view reincarnation as a form of “second chance” for the soul to make amends for past sins (the popular view), the question must be asked, why is it we don’t remember our past lives? If we cannot remember them, how can you correct them?

One response would be that the specific sins aren’t important – what’s important is that we, in this life, make the effort to overcome whatever limitations we see in ourselves. In fact, I would propose that there are signs – such as our awareness of our limitations – that indicate areas of life that challenged us most, in previous lives. If you have a problem with sharing your feelings, in this life; then maybe you had that same problem in a previous life. But no need to brood over it – just understand and overcome it.

If reincarnation is true, that after death, one is reborn, then mathematically, there must be exactly one birth for every death that occurs, that is, if there are five billion people alive now then, there should likewise be five billion people alive a thousand years ago, and there would still be the same number of people alive a thousand years hence. The problem is that there are more human beings alive now than there were a hundred, five hundred or a thousand years ago. How do we account for this imbalance then?

This problem assumes that reincarnation involves the direct process of dying, then taking a physical birth on earth immediately thereafter. Whereas reincarnation actually means (at least in many forms of Hinduism) that after you die there are several possibilities: after you die, you might (1) be reborn in a physical human body immediately thereafter [a possibility that, in the Hindu case, would be considered unlikely]; (2) be reborn in a hellish realm, a spiritual realm of nastiness and pain; after a period of time there – a few seconds, or eons and eons – one takes birth someplace else; (3) be reborn in a heavenly spiritual realm, where you meet your ancestors and relatives who are also spending some time there; again, after a period of time – a few seconds or eons and eons – one leaves that place and takes birth elsewhere; (4) be reborn in a divine realm, where one communes with God; one could live in this divine realm for ever and ever, or perhaps God might want to send you back to earth (or to some other plane of existence) for a job He wants you to do.

The fact that there are more human beings alive would only mean that more souls are being born on earth, and that these souls (which would be infinite in number) are coming from other planes of existence (hellish, heavenly, or perhaps even divine realms). Some of these souls might even be coming from animal or plant realms (in a process of spiritual evolution of sorts).

Ahimsa

 

[Ahimsa]

Greg_McPherran:

I don’t even need to think about it because my life is to follow Jesus. As soon as I even consider it, I find it unworthy of thought.

Greg,

The Hindu bhakta (devotee of God) would agree: total devotion to God makes God the center of one’s life; and concern about the fate of one’s soul in the afterlife would then merely take one’s mind off of God.

Ahimsa

 

[HagiaSophia]

Ahimsa:

the idea that the soul – after a brief or long period of time spent in a spiritual world – may enter into a physical form again (a human form,

That indeed is the definition of reincarnation.

Ahimsa:

most likely, but not necessarily).

That is something else, most usually called transmigration.–usually denoting belief that souls can come back as animals or other things.

It should also be noted that all believers in reincarnation do not believe in transmigration. They are called “strict reincarnationits”.

 

[HagiaSophia]

RobedWithLight:

Those who view reincarnation as a form of “second chance” for the soul to make amends for past sins (the popular view), the question must be asked, why is it we don’t remember our past lives? If we cannot remember them, how can you correct them?

Actually their position is that your life story will present you with the opportunity once again to make better choices. Since it is a choice, remembering would only conflict with the purpose of your free will to be presented with options and choose for yourself.

RobedWithLight:

How do we account for this imbalance then?

Their response would be that all people do not come back in each era of the world; so all of them would not be present at all times.

I agree with much of what you said in your post but just wanted to clarify these two points.

 

[RobedWithLight]

HagiaSophia:

Their response would be that all people do not come back in each era of the world; so all of them would not be present at all times.

I agree with much of what you said in your post but just wanted to clarify these two points.

Some New Age reincarnationists offered an explanation for this. They reasoned that the numerical imbalance between births and deaths is due to the fact that some of the “excess” souls came from other planets, thus compensating for these differences. However, they have yet to prove that those souls did indeed come from other worlds.

Gerry

 

[RobedWithLight]

HagiaSophia:

That indeed is the definition of reincarnation.

That is something else, most usually called transmigration.–usually denoting belief that souls can come back as animals or other things.

It should also be noted that all believers in reincarnation do not believe in transmigration. They are called “strict reincarnationits”.

That is correct. Transmigration is not accepted by all reincarnationists, especially in the West. The Church Fathers have strongly condemned the idea that men can be reborn as lower animals like monkeys, dogs or flies. HERE is a sampling of how the early Church viewed this doctrine, not just reincarnation but Transmigration as well.

Gerry

 

[RobedWithLight]

Ahimsa:

Greg,

The Hindu bhakta (devotee of God) would agree: total devotion to God makes God the center of one’s life; and concern about the fate of one’s soul in the afterlife would then merely take one’s mind off of God.

Ahimsa

Christians do not take the view that concern for one’s soul in the afterlife “conflicts” with concern for God. The opposite is much more true. Concern for the fate of the soul in the afterlife actually helps to bring you closer to God here and now.

Gerry

 

[RobedWithLight]

Finally, one more point.

Christian philosophical tradition denies that man can be reincarnated as animals, not only because it contradicts the Resurrection, but also because fitting a human soul into an animal body with an animal nature would in fact frustrate the soul in the sense that it can no longer act and think like a human while imprisoned in an animal body, which does not possess the faculties of a human one. In an animal body, the soul can no longer make real choices, but would likewise be forced to act like any other animal, inexorably following the demands of its irrational, brutish nature. Hence how can the soul “improve” upon its previous life and attain a higher spiritual state?

With this in mind, when a soul is reborn as a mosquito, is this punishment, or a form of correction? If we view it as punishment, then we must deny it because an animal is unaware it is being punished, and hence such punishment is pointless and superfluous. If we view it as a form of “correction”, how can anything be corrected when a mosquito in this case has no way of correcting its behaviour simply because it is irrational?

Where then is divine justice?

Gerry

 

[nordskoven]

Hinduism, which teaches reincarnation, and has influenced some schools of Buddhism, is a Babylonian Mystery Religion. This is simply civilized satanism, literally an “adversarialism” which contradicts all God has revealed of His nature and His will.

Reincarnation is one of a plethora of direct Hindu contradictions of God as revealed in Moses’ Torah and before by widespread civilizations showing consonance with Torah and monotheism. Hinduism comes from the Arya culture of looters and predators who invaded India from the north. The conjoining of Babylonian invader and Indian culture is called Aryan.

God made the world and called it “good.” Reincarnation implies that physicality is itself a curse, like the gnostics who call the material world evil. One must reincarnate because of karma, anti-grace. In this system there is no forgiveness of karmic debt, no grace. And more erosively, there is no firm definition on the nature of such “sin.”

Caste is an element of Babylonian Mystery Religions, whether Temple Mormons are the 33rd degree Masons. Elitism directly contradicts God’s chosing man. Election is virtually ignored in Christian apologetics, leading to an acceptance of militant elites like the condemned Catholic group, Tradition, Family & Property. Christ taught that those who serve would rule, the lowly would be exalted. No master race in Christianity. All souls are equal whether Jew or Gentile, slave or free, male or female.

A Hindu believing in karma looks at the low estate of his fellows and says that is their punishment for behavior in a previous life. Their fate is to simply suffer and reincarnate–up or down depending on one’s actions. So there has been no tradition of charitable works of mercy in Hinduism, only disdain. And this is one ugly offshoot of reincarnation.

Real reincarnation as taught by Hindus incorporates transmigration of souls into lower life forms, not the prettied-up human-to-human reincarnation. This parallels Mormon Babylonian Mystery Religion’s twist on changing natures by saying that a Mormon can and will become a god on another planet. Dyslexic atheists wonder if their is a doG, but Hindusim has millions of them.

And what happens when the Hindu is ready to attain that highest state and reincarnate no more? Like the Babylonian Mystery Religion of Gnosticism, as in the Gnostic Gospel of Thomas, one cannot do so as a female. The phony Thomas questions phony Jesus as to how a woman could ever attain Heaven. Phony Jesus says a woman cannot attain Heaven unless he deigns to perform a miracle.

The only equality in Hindusim is the equality of good and evil… One’s final reincarnation must be as a male before “moving up.” Lower castes are free to be abused. Show no mercy. If you want reincarnation, you have to swallow the whole cruel, rotten, elitist mess that goes with it.

 

[Ahimsa]

RobedWithLight:

Christians do not take the view that concern for one’s soul in the afterlife “conflicts” with concern for God. The opposite is much more true. Concern for the fate of the soul in the afterlife actually helps to bring you closer to God here and now.

I agree that for most people concern with the afterlife helps bring one closer to God. But I would suggest that, at a certain level of development, concern for one’s own afterlife state becomes less and less important.

Ahimsa

 

[Ahimsa]

RobedWithLight:

Finally, one more point.

Christian philosophical tradition denies that man can be reincarnated as animals, not only because it contradicts the Resurrection, but also because fitting a human soul into an animal body with an animal nature would in fact frustrate the soul in the sense that it can no longer act and think like a human while imprisoned in an animal body, which does not possess the faculties of a human one. In an animal body, the soul can no longer make real choices, but would likewise be forced to act like any other animal, inexorably following the demands of its irrational, brutish nature. Hence how can the soul “improve” upon its previous life and attain a higher spiritual state? It’s not clear that animals truly lack the capability to make choices. Certainly in the case of chimpanzees, elephants, dolphins, probably birds and reptiles as well, I haven’t seen any evidence that these animals in particular lack the ability to make choices. If we take evolution seriously, then we would not assume that animals do not have some degree of awareness and the ability to make a choice.

With this in mind, when a soul is reborn as a mosquito, is this punishment, or a form of correction?

It would be neither, really. If you were reborn as a mosquito, then you would take that as a given, and make your choices. (Assuming a human would ever take birth as a mosquito, of course, which is something not agreed upon by all reincarnationists.)

If we view it as punishment, then we must deny it because an animal is unaware it is being punished, and hence such punishment is pointless and superfluous. If we view it as a form of “correction”, how can anything be corrected when a mosquito in this case has no way of correcting its behaviour simply because it is irrational?

Seeing reincarnation as a process of “punishment and reward” is one way to look at it, but not a very profound or even useful way. Fearing being reincarnated in a hell, or as a mosquito, might be useful for some people in order to get them to be moral, ethical, and loving. And hoping for reincarnation in a heaven, or as a human being, might encourage one further along the spiritual path. But the purpose of all of this is not to get all the “reward” all for oneself. Real devotion to God is not predicated on God giving you the goodies if you act the way He wants you to act. At a certain point (at least in Hinduism), you cease to be concerned with where you end up after death, because your total life is devoted to God. If, for some reason, my actions in this life produce a mosquite reincarnation in the next life – well, if God made mosquitos, would that be such a profoundly negative or destructive or damnable state in which to exist? If we evolved from other life forms, what would be the harm of visiting our distant relatives every now and then?

Ahimsa

 

[Ahimsa]

nordskoven:

God made the world and called it “good.” Reincarnation implies that physicality is itself a curse, like the gnostics who call the material world evil. One must reincarnate because of karma, anti-grace. In this system there is no forgiveness of karmic debt, no grace. And more erosively, there is no firm definition on the nature of such “sin.”

Nord,

You raise some interesting points. I’ll just focus on what I see as your central point, the role of karma, forgiveness of karmic debt, and sin. My reply to this is actually quite short, because in Hinduism the average person reincarnates because he or she has not yet become in communion with God. And this communion with God is only possible by God’s grace. Grace is actually an important concept in Hinduism, especially in the devotional traditions of Hinduism. God reveals His grace on whom he pleases, as the devotees of Shiva claim in South India. It is this grace that makes liberation from the cycle of reincarnation possible. Sin, then, is that which keeps you in the cycle. Examples of sin would be: harming others in thought, word, deed; communicating untruths; taking possession of what is not one’s own; sexuality outside of marriage; and so on.

Reincarnation, in Hinduism, serves a functional role similar to the role that eternal hell and purgatory serve in Christianity: as warnings to get right with God. The goal is not to worship reincarnation, or fear it; the goal is to commune with God, who liberates one from the cycle.

Ahimsa

 

[Hans_A]

Reincarnation does not fit with Christianity for many reasons, but I will present only one.

We are all born with Original Sin. When we are baptized, the Original Sin is washed away and an indelible mark is made upon our soul. Now, when we die that mark is still there. If we were “born again” (not the fundamentalist way by the reincarnation way ), how could we be born with original sin? The mark is still on our soul. How would anyone know that a person’s soul had already been baptized, for we are only to be baptized once?

In Christ,
Hans

 

[RobedWithLight]

It also conflicts with Christianity this way.

If suppose we assume that Reincarnation is true and likewise the Resurrection is also true. If suppose at the last Judgment a person has already been reincarnated 100,000 times, therefore it means he has already inhabited 100,000 bodies. Now, which among those physical bodies would be resurrected on the day of judgment? All of them? Some of them? With which physical body would he be reunited finally, and what would happen to the other 99,999 physical bodies which he would not be reunited with in the last day?

These two doctrines are so diametrically opposed that this absurdity is one of its unfortunate consequences.

Gerry

 

[HagiaSophia]

RobedWithLight:

With which physical body would he be reunited finally,

Hey, I thought I was going to get a “glorified body”? I don’t need any more bad news, hurricanes, wars, election…