Rejecting the Motu Proprio....at Steubenville?

[latinmass]

How can anyone support the actions of FUS? By the way a Catholic University can’t be very orthodox and very charismatic, it’s a contradiction. Maybe the truth is coming out on this “conservative” university. I am interested to see what transpires.

 

[DustinsDad]

Except that the petitioning spoken of in the Motu Proprio is to the bishop, not a University. The bishop is the local ordinary who is responsible for all public celebrations of the Mass within his jurisdiction.

I thought it first went to the priest - and the bishop only got involved if the priest couldn’t or wouldn’t help.

 

[Windmill]

As a parent, I have always thought that I could send my child to certain universities without reservation. Steubenville has been one of them. However, with the events transpiring before us, I will be paying very close attention to how things work out.

 

[catharina]

A petition is merely a request. Following the guidelines of the motu proprio, it would only make sense that those who desire the Extraordinary Form would look around and see how much interest there is before making the request. That would be be the first question the powers-that-be would ask, and the first reason for declining the request if they didn’t have the information or were only guessing.

I mean good grief folks.

DustinsDad

Yes. I’m aware of the nature of a petition. To petiton, i.e., to make a request, is one thing. To present a petition is a play out of another ballpark. We KNOW that. I mean good grief folks.

 

[catharina]

Petitioning is very Catholic. If you go to the Catholic Encyclopedia and enter petition you can learn more about it. Individuals can petition or many individuals can petition. The Vatican even has forms and procedures for petitioning.

newadvent.org/cathen/11777a.htm

Actually, no. From the very link you provided it’s clear that an individual makes a petition - though often advisable that he provide additional letters from others as to the sincerity and authenticity of his request. I refer you back to your link:

“Under the new constitution of the Roman Curia by Pius X, any private person may personally approach and petition the Holy See. But it is always well, and often necessary, to present commendatory letters of the petitioner’s ordinary, as in the case of faculties, dispensations, and such like. It is also frequently advisable to make use of an agent in Rome, who can attend to the matter personally. For this purpose any trustworthy man may be chosen, provided he be acceptable to the Sacred Congregation with which he has to treat. (Cf. Const., “Sapienti Consilio”, Normæ communes, c. ix.)”

 

[Brennan_Doherty]

Yes. I’m aware of the nature of a petition. To petiton, i.e., to make a request, is one thing. To present a petition is a play out of another ballpark. We KNOW that. I mean good grief folks.

What are the students who initiated this supposed to do? Of course you would draw up a list of students who want the TLM at Steubenville and present it to the University. I think there are around 200 students who signed the petition. That way the University would know there is a genuine interest.

 

[catharina]

Except that the petitioning spoken of in the Motu Proprio is to the bishop, not a University. The bishop is the local ordinary who is responsible for all public celebrations of the Mass within his jurisdiction.

Indeed. Thank you.

 

[catharina]

How can anyone support the actions of FUS? By the way a Catholic University can’t be very orthodox and very charismatic, it’s a contradiction. Maybe the truth is coming out on this “conservative” university. I am interested to see what transpires.

Re this: "By the way a Catholic University can’t be very orthodox and very charismatic … "

On what do you base such a conclusion?

 

[catharina]

What are the students who initiated this supposed to do? Of course you would draw up a list of students who want the TLM at Steubenville and present it to the University. I think there are around 200 students who signed the petition. That way the University would know there is a genuine interest.

It would be far more simple, charitable, supportable and respectful for ONE individual (preferably, a faculty priest) to present a request with the information that the likelihood is that several hundred students/faculty would appreciate the change at issue.

This way it’s been handled? It smacks of politics that we’re more accustomed to seeing in leftist POLITICS. Not a good thing.

 

[Cathryn]

Actually, no. From the very link you provided it’s clear that an individual makes a petition - though often advisable that he provide additional letters from others as to the sincerity and authenticity of his request. I refer you back to your link:

“Under the new constitution of the Roman Curia by Pius X, any private person may personally approach and petition the Holy See. But it is always well, and often necessary, to present commendatory letters of the petitioner’s ordinary, as in the case of faculties, dispensations, and such like. It is also frequently advisable to make use of an agent in Rome, who can attend to the matter personally. For this purpose any trustworthy man may be chosen, provided he be acceptable to the Sacred Congregation with which he has to treat. (Cf. Const., “Sapienti Consilio”, Normæ communes, c. ix.)”

If there is some rule about not having more than one signature on a petition, which I don’t see, each person who wants the Extraordinary Mass can have a separate petition.

Originally Posted by catharina
Roman Catholics do not “petition” for change. I can’t think of an instance where such (political) action has worked within the Church - maybe because a public petition can so easily be seen as a source of scandal.

The idea that petitions are un-Catholic is not true. Obviously petitioning is a good and useful tool provided by the Church.

 

[Brennan_Doherty]

It would be far more simple, charitable, supportable and respectful for ONE individual (preferably, a faculty priest) to present a request with the information that the likelihood is that several hundred students/faculty would appreciate the change at issue.

This way it’s been handled? It smacks of politics that we’re more accustomed to seeing in leftist POLITICS. Not a good thing.

Yes, that certainly would be a valid way to do it. I have no idea why it would necessarily be more charitable or respectful. After all, the students are most likely acting in good faith and asking for something the Pope himself has provided for in his Motu Proprio. It’s not like they’re petitioning the University to stop teaching Catholic doctrine.

And, as far as I know, the students have already contacted one priest or more who is willing to celebrate the TLM.

 

[catharina]

If there is some rule about not having more than one signature on a petition, which I don’t see, each person who wants the Extraordinary Mass can have a separate petition.

The idea that petitions are un-Catholic is not true. Obviously petitioning is a good and useful tool provided by the Church.

I didn’t notice anyone saying petitions are unCatholic. Any parish that decides to offer two grand prizes for a sweepstakes-offering might decide first to petition parishoners as to their opinions regarding the choices. That’s an example of a workable public petition. However in Chruch governance, the notion of request by petition seems way out of bounds; at least my imagination won’t stretsh that far. Issues are presented and resolved by going up the chain of command, indidvidual to individual (not unlike in the military). The Church does not respond as the government would. Different goals, different structures.

 

[allstarhandmaid]

I just spoke with my sister who is currently a student at Franciscan. Her perspective was that there are many requests by students for various forms of the Mass: Mass in German, a schola Mass (singing) and this was another request. My sister seemed to think that the Franciscans are receiving many requests like this and have to turn some down. While I was a student there, they did have a Latin Mass once in awhile as well as a Byzantine Mass and a Schola Mass once or twice a semester. There was a lot of advertising for these Masses to make students aware they were available. It could be that the Franciscans are overwhelmed with requests at this point. The people who signed the petition for the TLM are very passionate about their petition so it has become a much bigger deal.

 

[daughterofmary]

From what I understand it was not the petition that got the students the remark, “You should seek mental health care.” It was the fact that they wanted the TLM. It does not seem the petition in itself phased the clergy at Steubenville. It was the students actually wanting the TLM which got them odd and angry looks (not to mention that very rude comment).

The students wanted it. The school is there to serve the students. If a couple staff members brought it up then what is the school suppose to do? Bend to the requests of those two theology professors? No. It is not going to do that. Now, what if two-hundred paying students request the TLM? That sounds more like it. I am thinking that is what the kids were thinking. I seriously doubt the professors rallied students for this. These are twenty something year old adults. They can think for themselves and they have their own preferances and desires. I am thinking this was all their idea and the professors, wanting the TLM, signed the petition. Actually, from what I understand at phatmass, the students* are* the one’s behind this. Not the professors.

I am not seeing how they went about it wrong. They, probably with good intentions, asked if they could have the TLM. They were told to go seek mental health care. I do not see the students doing anything wrong in this situtation.

There is probably a lot more going on behind the scenes on both sides. And it is not as if anyone of us know exactly what happened so there is no use in us saying: Well, they should have done this. We do not know what they have done before this or are doing now.

 

[catharina]

Yes, that certainly would be a valid way to do it. I have no idea why it would necessarily be more charitable or respectful. After all, the students are most likely acting in good faith and asking for something the Pope himself has provided for in his Motu Proprio. It’s not like they’re petitioning the University to stop teaching Catholic doctrine.

And, as far as I know, the students have already contacted one priest or more who is willing to celebrate the TLM.

I think it would be more charitable AND more respectful because it takes into account the legitimate authortiy of the Franciscan setting. I have no doubt that most, maybe all, of the students have acted in innocence. I have BIG questions as to who (in any position of authority) led them in the direction of “petition.” One has difficulty in seeing how that individual wouldn’t have known better. Especially, I recall “do not give even the appearance of scandal.”

 

[Brenda_V]

There is an updated “blog” now with e-mails etc. from those “in the know”. So, if you didn’t get a chance to read it earlier, it is there now.

Brenda V.

 

[catharina]

From what I understand it was not the petition that got the students the remark, “You should seek mental health care.” It was the fact that they wanted the TLM. It does not seem the petition in itself phased the clergy at Steubenville. It was the students actually wanting the TLM which got them odd and angry looks (not to mention that very rude comment).

The students wanted it. The school is there to serve the students. If a couple staff members brought it up then what is the school suppose to do? Bend to the requests of those two theology professors? No. It is not going to do that. Now, what if two-hundred paying students request the TLM? That sounds more like it. I am thinking that is what the kids were thinking. I seriously doubt the professors rallied students for this. These are twenty something year old adults. They can think for themselves and they have their own preferances and desires. I am thinking this was all their idea and the professors, wanting the TLM, signed the petition. Actually, from what I understand at phatmass, the students* are* the one’s behind this. Not the professors.

I am not seeing how they went about it wrong. They, probably with good intentions, asked if they could have the TLM. They were told to go seek mental health care. I do not see the students doing anything wrong in this situtation.

There is probably a lot more going on behind the scenes on both sides. And it is not as if anyone of us know exactly what happened so there is no use in us saying: Well, they should have done this. We do not know what they have done before this or are doing now.

“The school is there to serve the students.”

???

The school is there in service to the Church and the Franciscan community. It is there to EDUCATE the students.

 

[daughterofmary]

I think it would be more charitable AND more respectful because it takes into account the legitimate authortiy of the Franciscan setting. I have no doubt that most, maybe all, of the students have acted in innocence. I have BIG questions as to who (in any position of authority) led them in the direction of “petition.” One has difficulty in seeing how that individual wouldn’t have known better. Especially, I recall “do not give even the appearance of scandal.”

As someone who is about the age of the students there: If I wished for the TLM at FSU, wanted to know how many students wanted it, and wished to present a convincing cause to the Franciscans so that they would allow it, then I too would think up a petition. A petition, I would think, would be a common thought about how to go about things. How else is one to show the number of people wanting it?

From what I understand from the students, the professors and important people at the school are not the ones behind this. It is the students.

 

[Cathryn]

I didn’t notice anyone saying petitions are unCatholic. Any parish that decides to offer two grand prizes for a sweepstakes-offering might decide first to petition parishoners as to their opinions regarding the choices. That’s an example of a workable public petition. However in Chruch governance, the notion of request by petition seems way out of bounds; at least my imagination won’t stretsh that far. Issues are presented and resolved by going up the chain of command, indidvidual to individual (not unlike in the military). The Church does not respond as the government would. Different goals, different structures.

I believe you said that “Catholics do not petition for change”. :

Originally Posted by catharina
Roman Catholics do not “petition” for change. I can’t think of an instance where such (political) action has worked within the Church - maybe because a public petition can so easily be seen as a source of scandal.

Which is why I showed you how it is a tool that is used by the
Church. The petition or petitions can go to a priest, a college, even the Vatican. There is nothing bad or wrong with petitions.

 

[daughterofmary]

“The school is there to serve the students.”

???

The school is there in service to the Church and the Franciscan community. It is there to EDUCATE the students.

You are right. Wrong choice of words on my part. I meant that. Excuse me.

It is there to minister to the students.

The point of that particular post was to express my ideas that the petition thing is really not that big of a deal and that the professors are close to innocent in this.