Rejecting the Motu Proprio....at Steubenville?

[catharina]

I’m not Catharina. The disdain for petitions is more about keeping the Extrordinary Form of the Mass from happening.

Are you certain that you want to insult me that personally in public? I speak of no disdain at all, but of historical and common practices of authority in dealings in the RC Church. How dreadfully odd of you to imagine and state that I dislike the Latin Mass - and how untrue.

However if any sidetracking leads to less slamming of the the Franciscans and a slamming of me instead, I can live with that. The Franciscans are an 800 year-old Order in the RC Church. They have been (and are responsible) for untold goodness. This thread is sort of shocking to me. St. Francis of Assisi, pray for us!

 

[Cathryn]

Are you certain that you want to insult me that personally in public? I speak of no disdain at all, but of historical and common practices of authority in dealings in the RC Church. How dreadfully odd of you to imagine and state that I dislike the Latin Mass - and how untrue.

However if any sidetracking leads to less slamming of the the Franciscans and a slamming of me instead, I can live with that. The Franciscans are an 800 year-old Order in the RC Church. They have been (and are responsible) for untold goodness. This thread is sort of shocking to me. St. Francis of Assisi, pray for us!

If you look I said “disdain for petitions.”, not a disdain for the Latin Mass. I thought this because you equated petitions with leftist politics. Earlier you said: "It smacks of politics that we’re more accustomed to seeing in leftist POLITICS. " These are strong words used in relation to these students. I am sorry you were offended, but your strong words gave me this impression. I don’t believe any Catholic could or should have disdain for any valid Mass, and am not accusing you of disdain for the Latin Mass.

 

[catharina]

I have no idea what you meant but I’m clear as to what you said:

“I’m not Catharina. The disdain for petitions is more about keeping the Extrordinary Form of the Mass from happening.”

My “disdain for petitions” is no disdain at all. I’m saying that HISTORICALLY, changes attained by popular demand (the numbers of collected signatures) don’t happen. Yes, you attributed my intention to “keeping the Extrordinary Form of the Mass from happening” and that’s perfectly clear to me. That 9is truly uncharitable and untrue. Saying (now) that you thought you were responding to something you thought I said belabors your point - which you have left standing. That’s very sad. I’m defending the Francsicans and their practice. You’re defending the students - by insulting me? Then so be it.

 

[BobP123]

I don’t know why any devotee of the TLM would even want it to take place in a gym, anyway.

Why not? During the pre-Vatican II days, they let us play basketball on Saturday nights if we agreed to set up chairs for the next morning’s Mass. And this was to handle the overflow of the regular Mass in the Church.

That same Church is lucky to draw 20-30 in the main Church today. No basketball probably either.

 

[BobP123]

My “disdain for petitions” is no disdain at all. I’m saying that HISTORICALLY, changes attained by popular demand (the numbers of collected signatures) don’t happen.

Maybe, but I think you would have been more correct to say that petitions may get the benefit desired but most of the petitioners do not live up to their end of the bargain. The theory is that you can always get petitioners to sign almost anything, but if you get enough of them it must mean something.

I say this because some 10 years ago they managed to collect over 1000 signatures for a TLM in Joliet. So the bishop managed to get a retired priest to say it and a very talented choir to sing it once a month. You would think there would be a sizeable crowd but the truth is, it didn’t. At least not for more than a few Masses. It was discontinued only a few years after the petition.

But that is not to say you shouldn’t try petitioning if there is no other venue available.

 

[catharina]

Maybe, but I think you would have been more correct to say that petitions may get the benefit desired but most of the petitioners do not live up to their end of the bargain. The theory is that you can always get petitioners to sign almost anything, but if you get enough of them it must mean something.

I say this because some 10 years ago they managed to collect over 1000 signatures for a TLM in Joliet. So the bishop managed to get a retired priest to say it and a very talented choir to sing it once a month. You would think there would be a sizeable crowd but the truth is, it didn’t. At least not for more than a few Masses. It was discontinued only a few years after the petition.

But that is not to say you shouldn’t try petitioning if there is no other venue available.

I remember that the situation in the Diocese of Joliet has been unusual for sometime. Yet students who want to make a point in that way? Really a different thing, imo.

 

[Cathryn]

The disdain for petitions is more about keeping the Extrordinary Form of the Mass from happening."

OK, one more time. From what you said about petitions, (smacks of leftist politics, etc.) . I got the impression your disdain for petitions had more to do with the Traditional Mass becoming popular and making it harder to have any idea of how many students want it on this campus, than any real disdain for petitions. I believe someone else said basically the same thing. The idea that there would be no gathering of names to even know how many students would want the Mass makes no sense at all. A simple respectful petition seems to be a reasonable Catholic way for students to let their needs be known. No one is going on hunger strikes. A prohibition on petitions however severely limits how anyone can know what the need for the Mass really is. I have never accused you of disdain for the Latin Mass. I apologize however if I gave that impression. I would like to see something in writing from the Church about how petitions are not the way to express needs such as this. This seems to be the only way to know what the needs are and how to present these needs. Like I said earlier no one is asking for something they are not entitled to. No one here is asking for women priests, or anything that is not reasonable and good.

 

[catharina]

I think I have far better reasons to trust the discretion of the Franciscans rather than the discretion of students and those who would support the students.

Yes. It’s too bad it came to this.

 

[catharina]

OK, one more time. From what you said about petitions, (smacks of leftist politics, etc.) . I got the impression your disdain for petitions had more to do with the Traditional Mass becoming popular and making it harder to have any idea of how many students want it on this campus, than any real disdain for petitions. I believe someone else said basically the same thing. The idea that there would be no gathering of names to even know how many students would want the Mass makes no sense at all. A simple respectful petition seems to be a reasonable Catholic way for students to let their needs be known. No one is going on hunger strikes. A prohibition on petitions however severely limits how anyone can know what the need for the Mass really is. I have never accused you of disdain for the Latin Mass. I apologize however if I gave that impression. I would like to see something in writing from the Church about how petitions are not the way to express needs such as this. This seems to be the only way to know what the needs are and how to present these needs. Like I said earlier no one is asking for something they are not entitled to. No one here is asking for women priests, or anything that is not reasonable and good.

I accept your apology. Thank you for offering it.

 

[latinmass]

Why are people making this so complicated? The leaders of the FSU have denied the TLM on campus. THIS SPEAKS VOLUMES. GO SOMEWHERE ELSE FOR THE TLM, WE’LL PROVIDE TRANSPORTATION. If the TLM takes over the school, then the charismatic movement which the leaders hold dear (Hahn, Scanlan) will decline. Are their any TLM attendees who are in the charismatic movement out there? I bet not many. The novelty of the charismatic movement is by no means an official Church teaching or doctrine, but has been tolerated and has become a distraction in the Church. This movement is neither orthodox or conservative, and certainly not traditional.

 

[jmcrae]

Why are people making this so complicated? The leaders of the FSU have denied the TLM on campus. THIS SPEAKS VOLUMES. GO SOMEWHERE ELSE FOR THE TLM, WE’LL PROVIDE TRANSPORTATION. If the TLM takes over the school, then the charismatic movement which the leaders hold dear (Hahn, Scanlan) will decline. Are their any TLM attendees who are in the charismatic movement out there? I bet not many.

That’s what I would have thought, too - and yet, just about everyone I know in the Charismatic movement also attends the TLM at least once a month.

The novelty of the charismatic movement is by no means an official Church teaching or doctrine, but has been tolerated and has become a distraction in the Church. This movement is neither orthodox or conservative, and certainly not traditional.

The interesting (and totally counter-intuitive) thing about the Charismatic movement is that it produces people who know their faith quite well - there must be something to this glossalalia thing, because despite apparently babbling incomprehensibly at their meetings, they seem to learn quite a lot - more, even, than people who attend more traditional Catechism classes and/or Bible study groups.

 

[VociMike]

That’s what I would have thought, too - and yet, just about everyone I know in the Charismatic movement also attends the TLM at least once a month.

I guess different people touch different parts of that elephant. The Charismatics I know here in Naples (older ones, at least) are highly dismissive of Latin, chant, polyphony, etc. and even mock the pope and the MP in private while saying all the right things in public.

If the Charismatics at FUS were attending the TLM once a month it would seem reasonable to expect that they’d have gotten one on campus by now.

 

[dbacks5439]

I just talked to a friend of mine yesterday who is a student at Franciscan. He says that in the eyes of the university, the motu proprio makes no mention of college campuses, so they don’t have it. Rather odd, wouldn’t you say? He says students are still petitioning, but he finds the NO to be very reverent so he’s glad either way. Also, he sometimes goes to St. Peter’s church in town that has the Tridentine Mass. So even if it isn’t on campus, the EO is still available in town.

 

[VociMike]

I just talked to a friend of mine yesterday who is a student at Franciscan. He says that in the eyes of the university, the motu proprio makes no mention of college campuses, so they don’t have it. Rather odd, wouldn’t you say? He says students are still petitioning, but he finds the NO to be very reverent so he’s glad either way. Also, he sometimes goes to St. Peter’s church in town that has the Tridentine Mass. So even if it isn’t on campus, the EO is still available in town.

Are the churches at FUS “churches that are not parish or conventual churches” (SP 5.5)? If they are not then the MP addresses them. If they are, then it would seem that the pastor of the associated parish is the one who should decide, not the administration at FUS. Either way, the claim “it doesn’t apply to us” seems clearly false.

 

[Brenda_V]

I just talked to a friend of mine yesterday who is a student at Franciscan. He says that in the eyes of the university, the motu proprio makes no mention of college campuses, so they don’t have it. Rather odd, wouldn’t you say? He says students are still petitioning, but he finds the NO to be very reverent so he’s glad either way. Also, he sometimes goes to St. Peter’s church in town that has the Tridentine Mass. So even if it isn’t on campus, the EO is still available in town.

My daughter is a graduate of FUS - when she heard about this thread and then heard that St. Peter’s has a TLM she said, “well why don’t those who want it walk on over to St. Peter’s.” “In town” is not that far from the campus of FUS. You must understand that if anyone wanted to you could easily walk all over the little tiny burg of Steubenville.

Brenda V.

 

[Friar_David_O.Carm]

What I find most disappointing about this whole incident is Fr Z.

His choice to post an email with such a negative view of clergy, the who issue of a priest telling the person who wants the TLM that they need counseling with out attempting to find out if this is true.

Then when he does find out it is not true he choses not to remove the offending email and only says “* I sure hope that it is true that no one ever said that. I sincerely do.*”

So he was quick to take the negative and when someone in a position to know the truth says it didn’t happen Fr Z is not sure if it is true that it didn’t happen.

Its a said day when a priest is quick to believe such a bad thing about a fellow priest and then slow to believe the opposite when told it by someone who should know.

 

[cothrige]

My daughter is a graduate of FUS - when she heard about this thread and then heard that St. Peter’s has a TLM she said, “well why don’t those who want it walk on over to St. Peter’s.” “In town” is not that far from the campus of FUS. You must understand that if anyone wanted to you could easily walk all over the little tiny burg of Steubenville.

Brenda V.

I still don’t understand why this is an acceptable position. If it is then why not ask why FUS offers NO Masses? Aren’t they celebrated in town too? And most likely in much greater numbers than are the TLM, and yet from what I am reading it would appear that FUS has quite a few of these.

Patrick

 

[palmas85]

What I find most disappointing about this whole incident is Fr Z.

His choice to post an email with such a negative view of clergy, the who issue of a priest telling the person who wants the TLM that they need counseling with out attempting to find out if this is true.

Then when he does find out it is not true he choses not to remove the offending email and only says “* I sure hope that it is true that no one ever said that. I sincerely do.*”

So he was quick to take the negative and when someone in a position to know the truth says it didn’t happen Fr Z is not sure if it is true that it didn’t happen.

Its a said day when a priest is quick to believe such a bad thing about a fellow priest and then slow to believe the opposite when told it by someone who should know.

You want to know what is sadder than that? The fact that a charismatic Mass would be favored over the Traditional Mass. That is not only sad, it is downright scary.

 

[DustinsDad]

…His choice to post an email with such a negative view of clergy, the who issue of a priest telling the person who wants the TLM that they need counseling with out attempting to find out if this is true.

Father Z has alot more experience in dealing with this matter than you or I. This sort of reccomendation has not been uncommon at all…many a priest and seminarian have been been put through the phsycological ringer for demonstrating an attachment to the TLM and the traditional ways. do a little research - you’ll see.

That being said, I think Father Z posted the appropriate disclaimers when reporting what was being sent to him via email. And he had no logical reason to discount it because such an attitude toward traditional folks isn’t uncommon at all (maybe that’s changing finally). And I think he issued the necessary clarification when it came to him as well.

Peace in Christ,

DustinsDad

 

[jj2011]

Father Z has alot more experience in dealing with this matter than you or I. This sort of reccomendation has not been uncommon at all…many a priest and seminarian have been been put through the phsycological ringer for demonstrating an attachment to the TLM and the traditional ways. do a little research - you’ll see.

That being said, I think Father Z posted the appropriate disclaimers when reporting what was being sent to him via email. And he had no logical reason to discount it because such an attitude toward traditional folks isn’t uncommon at all (maybe that’s changing finally). And I think he issued the necessary clarification when it came to him as well.

Peace in Christ,

DustinsDad

The counseling suggestion did happen to somebody in 1999.

Frankly, it’s not charity to cover for the disobedience of the Franciscans either.

While we’re on this subject, I don’t know many “Byz” Christians who would put up with suppression of the Divine Liturgy, and then cover up for the priests who did it.