Rejecting the Teaching Authority of the Chruch?

[Legal_Eagle]

I have to confess that I have exactly zero experience with the Traditional Mass. I’ve never been to one and quite frankly wouldn’t know where to find one if my life depended on it. So as far as being able to say the new is better than the old…I’m not in any position to judge.

I can tell you this, though. Many of the feelings of anger, pain and frustration that y’all have expressed seem to be pretty well justified. The thought of waking up one morning and everything you’ve ever held dear is now suddenly different is very disturbing. Our parish priest was in seminary when the changes took place. He describes the confusion and anger that y’all have talked about. He believes that the changes were good but introduced much to suddenly.

Let me offer this positive note about the new. Our parish is quite modern. Modern music, progressive (but orthodox) priest, lots of lay participation in religious education, booming CYO, the whole 9 yards. Yet our doctrine and our reverence is very traditional. My kids (3 of 'em) are getting great religious education, our RCIA turns out well educated adult converts, the real presence is heavily stressed at mass. Our local parish is growing by leaps and bounds. And its not just numbers. The people we attract are faithful, well educated Catholics that love the Church and fill the pews on Sundays and Holy Days. From someone raising a faimly in a modern parish, let me assure you guys that we’re really not going to heck in a handbasket.

Thank you all for the thoughtful posts. I hope y’all will keep posting.

 

[Legal_Eagle]

Sorry dude…I dont’ have a clue as to what you are talking about…but my observation is accurate…which one do you find Gay Pride Masses? Which one do you find Protestants receiving Communion? Which one do you find people stealing the Holy Eucharists to use in Black Masses or to sell it on Ebay? Which one do you find clowns? Which one do you find lay people giving homilies??? All of these things are very, very wrong…and should not be tolerated or allowed…I am simply calling a spade a spade…If you can’t handle the truth…that is sad.

dumspirospero:

The things that you describe, if in fact they are taking place, are most unfortunate, and I agree that someone somewhere should put an end to such practices. But I have just simply never seen them anywhere. I’ve been to Mass in lots of different parishes in lots of different states, but I’ve never felt that the priest or the faithful there were irrevrent or disrespectful. Maybe I’m just blind and don’t see it. But, I don’t see it. Please see my earlier post. Things are actually quite good in the parishes I’ve been to. Especially my local parish.

 

[brotherhrolf]

I have to confess that I have exactly zero experience with the Traditional Mass. I’ve never been to one and quite frankly wouldn’t know where to find one if my life depended on it. So as far as being able to say the new is better than the old…I’m not in any position to judge.

I can tell you this, though. Many of the feelings of anger, pain and frustration that y’all have expressed seem to be pretty well justified. The thought of waking up one morning and everything you’ve ever held dear is now suddenly different is very disturbing. Our parish priest was in seminary when the changes took place. He describes the confusion and anger that y’all have talked about. He believes that the changes were good but introduced much to suddenly.

Let me offer this positive note about the new. Our parish is quite modern. Modern music, progressive (but orthodox) priest, lots of lay participation in religious education, booming CYO, the whole 9 yards. Yet our doctrine and our reverence is very traditional. My kids (3 of 'em) are getting great religious education, our RCIA turns out well educated adult converts, the real presence is heavily stressed at mass. Our local parish is growing by leaps and bounds. And its not just numbers. The people we attract are faithful, well educated Catholics that love the Church and fill the pews on Sundays and Holy Days. From someone raising a faimly in a modern parish, let me assure you guys that we’re really not going to heck in a handbasket.

Thank you all for the thoughtful posts. I hope y’all will keep posting.

Have you ever thought that you do not have a benchmark with which to compare? Pardon me but I do. I know firsthand what went before and I know all too well what came after.

It would seem to me that you might, just might, want to check out what the Church was like before 1965 before you make such grand sweeping statements. If you do not have a reference point, how then can you make statements like a “progressive yet orthodox priest”. Progressive yet orthodox is a high quality oxymoron to me.

This is a large part of the problem. You younger folk have no idea what went before. You state yourself that you have never attended a TLM. I know first hand what abuses can occur in the NO. Been there, done that. If you have not attended a TLM and don’t have any idea about what we are talking about, where then is your reference point?

Let me assure you that the Church in which I was raised is a far, far cry from most of the Catholic churches today. This is not a judgment statement, it is simply a statement of fact. It IS a far different Church.

I simply do not understand this abject fear from post-Vatican II Catholics. I don’t want to reinstate the TLM for everyone - that cow is long out of the barn. Rome spoke back in the 60s. What is so difficult about allowing the Mass which I grew up with to have a more widespread use?

It would seem to me that here we are some 40 years past Vatican II and there’s still a whole bunch of us who are not happy. Forty years. I was a teenager when Vatican II happened. I’d no more attend a Life Teen Mass than I would go to my local Baptist church. Somewhere, someplace along the line there are folks like me who were forgotten.

You don’t even have a reference point to address our issues. Is this fair?

 

[Windmill]

I am a child of the 80’s. I was born in '74. All I’ve known is the NOM. Then, I discovered the tradition of the Church in doctrine. I fell in love with the dogmas our ancestors died for, rather than renounce their faith. I thought I had arrived. I was a doctrinally traditional catholic. However, I saw no dichotomy between the guitar Masses with ripped blue jeans, extraordinary ministers of HC passing out 90% of the hosts, no Latin, priests facing us, etc… and the Mass that St. Therese of Liseux attended. I knew it was the same sacrifice of calvary, but it never occurred to me that if St. Therese walked into a Mass in my parish, she’d freak out and claim we were crazy! However, if she were to walk into a Mass in a chapel around 800AD, she’d be right at home. She only died about 110 years ago, yet she’d be more in tune with a Mass 1000 years before her time. I never thought about it in those terms until I discovered liturgical tradition.

 

[Legal_Eagle]

Have you ever thought that you do not have a benchmark with which to compare? Pardon me but I do. I know firsthand what went before and I know all too well what came after.

That is a fair point. I can only say that I have listened to a lot of older folks (I’m 35) who were adults when the changes took place. I’m an RCIA sponsor, and some of my fellow sponsors are in their 60’s and 70’s, and most of them are very conservative. We’ve discussed the Vatican II changes in RCIA, how it was vs how it is. Most of them feel like the changes were positive but complain about the way they were implemented.

Progressive yet orthodox is a high quality oxymoron to me.

You would just have to know Father. That statement describes him to a tee. He is very orthodox in his approach to doctrine, the Mass and the Sacraments. He is very progressive in his approach to people and the community.

I simply do not understand this abject fear from post-Vatican II Catholics. I don’t want to reinstate the TLM for everyone - that cow is long out of the barn. Rome spoke back in the 60s. What is so difficult about allowing the Mass which I grew up with to have a more widespread use?

You used the term fear. Good point. A lot of the resistance may well be based on unjustified fear. I for one have never had this type of interchange with a Traditionalist before that’s why I’m thankful that y’all have indulged my questions. I disagree with your point of view, but I’m much less fearful and suspicious than I was when we started. Isn’t that the point of this fourm? Dialouge is a good thing, no?

I’d no more attend a Life Teen Mass than I would go to my local Baptist church. Somewhere, someplace along the line there are folks like me who were forgotten.

I guess I’m pretty ignorant when it comes right down to it, I’ve never heard of a Life Teen Mass. I think it’s a shame that people like you were forgotten. Y’all have given me a pretty good insight into the motives and needs behind Traditionalism, and I’m thankful for it. I guess the point I was trying to get across in my last post was that not all is bad in the new rite. We have a dynamic parish and fantastic parish life. I for one love it. The older folks I have talked to in depth love it.

On the other hand, after reading through these posts, y’all do make lots of good points. I know much more now than I did when we started this thread.

Here’s to hoping we can learn to tolerate and love each other.

 

[Windmill]

Legal,

may I offer you two small rules to follow at any given mass:

1. If you have to keep convincing yourself, “I AM at a solemn sacrifice”, then something is not right.
2. If you can easily imagine a muppet singing the chosen songs at Mass, then something is wrong.

I’d also encourage you to attend a Traditional Latin Mass (TLM) at least one time so you have something to compare the new Mass to. It can only broaden your Catholic experience and make you more well rounded. Much of what we discuss here is heady…much of it is something one needs to experience.

later…

P.S. I’m about 35, too, and I have come from the progressive/orthodox scene. I am thankful for what it did give me, but I realize now that there is a whole world that is beyond what I thought Catholicism was limited to. I’d never go back.

 

[Nick]

I stopped attending Mass during the early 70s because of what I had to endure. It wasn’t until I found my reverent NO parish (a cathedral parish) that I started going back to Mass.

I love the Traditional Mass as much as anyone, but not liking the way certain NO Masses are celebrated is not a sufficient reason to ignore your Sunday obligation.

 

[maurin]

Oh Brother!

Sounds like the old argument that only 144,000 will be saved. Must mean the rest of the Catholic population is going south, losing salvation. But you Tradtionists are all holy and will be among the 144,000. I’m so glad you are not like one of “those” my man … sigh.

Dear Rykell,

I object respectfully but firmly to your use of the generalization “you Traditionalists are all holy…”

You have included me into what amounts to a fringe group. I resent that. I am a Traditionalist for reasons that are sound to me. And I am certain that many many Traditionalists realize that we are no holier than you or anyone of our brothers and sisters. I am certain that, as you, we are quite aware of our sinfulness and fallen natures, and those things to which we are enslaved or have enslaved ourselves.

Please confine your remarks to the appropriate people. It is easier to ask for respect when you offer respect. Your comment was disrespectful to me and to the hundreds of thousands of others who attend Indult Tridentine Masses in conformity with our Bishops and our Holy Father, and who strive to be the best Christians we are able to be.

Thank you for listening,

yours in Jesus’ Most Sacred Heart,

maurin

 

[brotherhrolf]

I love the Traditional Mass as much as anyone, but not liking the way certain NO Masses are celebrated is not a sufficient reason to ignore your Sunday obligation.

I simply disagree. The anger I felt from having the rug yanked out from under my feet and no alternative available …Look at it from my perspective…I simply could not stand the guitars and the Muppet Music so very common just after V II. Do you honestly think that singing Simon and Garfunkle’s Bridge over Troubled Waters and Sounds of Silence is appropriate music for the Offertory and Communion for graduation from a Catholic high school? There were no TLMs available back in the early 70s! Have you ever heard Sons of God, Hear His Holy Word or And They’ll Know We Are Christians By Our Love? And, yet the graduating class before us in 1968 sang traditional Catholic hymns.

I went to an Eastern Orthodox Holy Saturday divine liturgy in 1976 and thought I had died and gone to heaven. It was not until I moved here to Baton Rouge when I was in grad school that I discovered a reverent NO parish.

I was then and I am now more than aware of my Sunday obligation. My conscience was formed before Vatican II. My religious formation was the Baltimore Catichism long before the CCC. I just don’t think that any of you who grew up after 1970 have the least idea of how shocking Vatican II was. As the Jesuit poet, Hopkins, said “Hold them cheap, may who ne’er hung here”. Hindsight is always 20/20 but what is hindsight for you was real life for me.

Yes, I knew what I did. And had I not found an orthodox parish, I would still be in the same situation. I drive 25 miles to attend my parish and have for some 25 years. In 1965 I would not have to do so. That, is the difference.

 

[maurin]

I simply disagree. The anger I felt from having the rug yanked out from under my feet and no alternative available …Look at it from my perspective…I simply could not stand the guitars and the Muppet Music so very common just after V II. Do you honestly think that singing Simon and Garfunkle’s Bridge over Troubled Waters and Sounds of Silence is appropriate music for the Offertory and Communion for graduation from a Catholic high school? There were no TLMs available back in the early 70s! Have you ever heard Sons of God, Hear His Holy Word or And They’ll Know We Are Christians By Our Love? And, yet the graduating class before us in 1968 sang traditional Catholic hymns.

I went to an Eastern Orthodox Holy Saturday divine liturgy in 1976 and thought I had died and gone to heaven. It was not until I moved here to Baton Rouge when I was in grad school that I discovered a reverent NO parish.

I was then and I am now more than aware of my Sunday obligation. My conscience was formed before Vatican II. My religious formation was the Baltimore Catichism long before the CCC. I just don’t think that any of you who grew up after 1970 have the least idea of how shocking Vatican II was. As the Jesuit poet, Hopkins, said “Hold them cheap, may who ne’er hung here”. Hindsight is always 20/20 but what is hindsight for you was real life for me.

Yes, I knew what I did. And had I not found an orthodox parish, I would still be in the same situation. I drive 25 miles to attend my parish and have for some 25 years. In 1965 I would not have to do so. That, is the difference.

dear brother,

I hope that you realize that I have no affection for the Mass that I was born and raised in. I also attend the Traditional Latin Mass, 1 of 3 Parishes that offer them in the Archdiocese of Miami.

But may I ask you to explain your objection to these words?:

“We are one in the Spirit
We are on in the Lord
And we pray that all unity will one day be restored,
And they’ll know we are Christians by our love…”

Are we not one in the Spirit?
Are we not one in the Lord?
Do we not pray that all unity will one day be restored?
Will they not know us as Christians by the way we love?
Isn’t it St. Teresa of Avila who taught that love is the measure by which we’ll be judged (or correct me if I have the wrong Saint).

And certainly, as St. Augustine said, right is right even if noone is doing it, and wrong is wrong, even if everyone is doing it.

 

[Windmill]

brotherhrolf brings up another thing…

when you go to mass, do you feel like you’ve died and gone to heaven? do you feel like you are truly in the presence of the angels, saints and almighty god?

when i go to a typical NO mass, i don’t experience this ethos. i should, and everyone should. many don’t even know this ethos exists anymore. many feel like mass needs to “be brought down to the common man” instead of “elevating the common man to contemplate the majesty of god.”

these ethereal things are what mother church guarded jealously for centuries. now, we have bongo drums.

go figure.

 

[maurin]

many feel like mass needs to “be brought down to the common man” instead of “elevating the common man to contemplate the majesty of god.”

.

Excellent point. What a brilliant perspective and distinction!!! I really appreciate you writing that.

 

[Windmill]

maurin,

you better quit it. you’re going to give me an ego.

http://smilies.vidahost.com/ups/icis/ices_lol_large.gif

but seriously, this has always been the perspective of HMC: elevate man’s thoughts to eternal things so that they can make sense of the suffering that they endure here on earth. it reminds them that there is a majestic reward awaiting them if only they fight the good fight. many parishes now are just a bad spin off of protestant contemporary christian rock music. how does that elevate your thoughts to contemplation? it doesn’t. it appeals to base instincts.

i’m not making this stuff up. ratzinger wrote about it in spirit of the liturgy.

 

[maurin]

maurin,

you better quit it. you’re going to give me an ego.

http://smilies.vidahost.com/ups/icis/ices_lol_large.gif

but seriously, this has always been the perspective of HMC: elevate man’s thoughts to eternal things so that they can make sense of the suffering that they endure here on earth. it reminds them that there is a majestic reward awaiting them if only they fight the good fight. many parishes now are just a bad spin off of protestant contemporary christian rock music. how does that elevate your thoughts to contemplation? it doesn’t. it appeals to base instincts.

i’m not making this stuff up. ratzinger wrote about it in spirit of the liturgy.

You know, it’s interesting how a good Homily can stick with you and come back to you throughout the week. This past Sunday our Priest taught how satan uses vocabulary in order to seduce and confuse us: “What’s the big deal, it is only an extra-marital affair, not adultery. it is pre-marital relations, not fornication. it is the termination of a pregnancy, not the murder of a defenseless human being. he or she is gay, they do not have a sexual disorder.”

Your posts above hit it home for me. And don’t worry about your ego–there are plenty of people, I have found, willing to knock us all down a few pegs Thanks for making my day a little closer to God.

 

[brotherhrolf]

dear brother,

I hope that you realize that I have no affection for the Mass that I was born and raised in. I also attend the Traditional Latin Mass, 1 of 3 Parishes that offer them in the Archdiocese of Miami.

But may I ask you to explain your objection to these words?:

“We are one in the Spirit
We are on in the Lord
And we pray that all unity will one day be restored,
And they’ll know we are Christians by our love…”

Are we not one in the Spirit?
Are we not one in the Lord?
Do we not pray that all unity will one day be restored?
Will they not know us as Christians by the way we love?
Isn’t it St. Teresa of Avila who taught that love is the measure by which we’ll be judged (or correct me if I have the wrong Saint).

And certainly, as St. Augustine said, right is right even if noone is doing it, and wrong is wrong, even if everyone is doing it.

I’m more of a Come Holy Ghost type of person. If I can envision Kermit and Miss Piggy singing it, I don’t wan’t to sing it. Y’all really don’t have a clue as to how much of a departure this was from traditional Catholic hymnnody in use just one year before.

I don’t object to the words. I object to the music…which was and is entirely secular. Seriously, tell me in all honesty, that And They’ll Know We Are Christians ranks up there with Holy God We Praise Thy Name or Praise to the Lord or Holy, Holy, Holy. It’s not sung now. That, in and of itself, is an indictment of its worthiness as a hymn.

 

[dbacks5439]

Tridentine or NO, who cares what is being done, as long as the Eucharist is there and due reverence is given to it.

        That, I think, is the most damaging sentence. I attend the NO, I make it reverent to me, but Vat. II combined with the progressive "90's culture" has started to introduce this statement. With the abuses that are going on, people become numb after a while. If a person witnesses an abuse, but lives with it, soon it'll become the norm. My friend had a problem with a priest once. This priest, doing the daily Mass and only about 7 people show up, gives the plate holding the Eucharist to the first person. This person then gives the plate to the next person, so on and so on. The Missal clearly states that this is to be prohibited. Well, my friend brought this up and the priest was cold and said, "We've done this for a long time."

Even priests are becoming numb to the abuses that they perform.

 

[Windmill]

If you want an awesome book to read, try Dietrich von Hildebrand’s Trojan Horse in the City of God. Vatican officials, Archbishops, and theologians loyal to the Holy See have recommended this book many times for those who want to understand the chaos that has followed V2.

Also, Thomas Day’s Why Catholics Can’t Singis a great place to start when it comes to liturgical music.

Both are staples in the current discussions of the liturgy. All the thinkers (liberal and conservative) assume you have read these, and they refer back to these works multiple times.

Of course, the greatest person to read up on the liturgy is Pope Benedict, aka Joseph Cardinal Ratzinger. The Ratzinger Report, Salt of the Earth, and Spirit of the Liturgyare BRILLIANT works that grip you, leave you nodding your head, and saying “EXACTLY!”

It’s no surprise that our beloved Pope is doing what he is doing with regards to liturgy. His revocation of the indult allowing EMHC’s to purify vessels was very hard hitting. His public statements saying we should be using Latin at Mass more often, and then, through Arinze, saying that every average parish should be offering at least one Latin Mass are setting the stage for what he knows he wants to do. The world has read his works, and they know what he clearly sees. Now, they are just wondering if he’ll follow through.

It looks like he is doing just that.

 

[maurin]

I’m more of a Come Holy Ghost type of person. If I can envision Kermit and Miss Piggy singing it, I don’t wan’t to sing it. Y’all really don’t have a clue as to how much of a departure this was from traditional Catholic hymnnody in use just one year before.

I don’t object to the words. I object to the music…which was and is entirely secular. Seriously, tell me in all honesty, that And They’ll Know We Are Christians ranks up there with Holy God We Praise Thy Name or Praise to the Lord or Holy, Holy, Holy. It’s not sung now. That, in and of itself, is an indictment of its worthiness as a hymn.

dear brother,

you perplex me. You, on one hand, make very good sense, but on the other, well, sometimes you do not. As a cantor at the NO Masses, which I was born and raised in, only recently coming home to the Traditional Latin Mass, I know all of the Hymns to which you refer, and I agree that they are beautiful. And I learned them all, and sung them all, at the NO.

I am happy that you do not object to the lyrics that were posted above. The lyrics seem to express at least a couple of the fundamentals of the faith. The melodies, I agree, are quite a different story.

The chant, the Traditional Hymns, both the words and melodies ARE angelic and quite conducive to prayer. I look forward to being exposed to more and more and more on a REGULAR basis.

 

[Kikero]

Where the head goes the body follows. The language of VII left much to be desired. It allowed for those with contrary or dangerous visions of the churgh to interject them. Before VII, a your average Catholic knew and believed pretty much the same as the next Catholic. Now? Combine nominalism with VII and we get the mess we have today. This is not to say that VII taught errors. It is to say that VII opened the door for it IMO.

40 years ago would there have been a Catholic church without kneelers? 30 years? 20 years? While It may have no immediate bearing on someones salvation I believe in the long run it does. A person must humble themselves to some degree to bring themselves to kneel, to bow their head, to prostrate themselves. Over a period of time I believe this does much to mold someones character and dispostion. Likewise, the abject “Refusal” by some to kneel,
And man, bring kneelers back to a parish that got rid of them and listen to them howl, is a sign of self pride that over time can be very harmful and dangerous.

This is the jist of why I would prefer to see a more traditional Mass. Not just “kneelers” per se. Kneelers is only a small symptom or many that have cropped up over the years since VII…sign of the times.

 

[maurin]

Hi Kikero,

about kneelers and humility: kneeling on a soft cushy kneeler, or kneeling on a hard tile or terrazzo floor–which is more humbling?

I have been in 2 or three Churches in the States and in Italy which were built well before even the those who called for the Second Vatican Council were a gleam in their parents’ eyes. The Church of my grandmother’s baptism in Italy was built in the 15th century! No kneelers there. Just tile under those pews! (And from what I understood from my cousins, few pews, too, until about 200 years ago!).

Although I understand your point, I do not believe that Vatican II opened the doors to the mess we are all experiencing. It is more likely to be a mixture of factors, the secularisation of the culture, the lack of effective catechesis, etc. that were developing even before the Council was called.

Respectfully and sincerely, maurin