Rejecting the Teaching Authority of the Chruch?

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many in the hierarchy were shouted down if they so much as frowned on V2. they would be accused of being against the “spirit of the council” if they didn’t go along with the flow.

now, with most of the upcoming theologians and priests being young, they are more free to be critical of the negative aspects of the council’s fruit. they can honestly praise the good that has come, but they aren’t cast out into the darkness if they bring up problems. that, in my opinion, will be the gateway to a genuine restoration: academic freedom to go against the “spirit of V2”.
 
  1. If you have to keep convincing yourself, “I AM at a solemn sacrifice”, then something is not right.
I agree 100%.
  1. If you can easily imagine a muppet singing the chosen songs at Mass, then something is wrong.
I don’t know…“It’s Not That Easy Being Green” is pretty profound. 😃

If I may be allowed to make one more observation. Mass is kind of like a paper bag. That is, you tend to get out of it what you put into it. If I sit in Mass and bemoan the fact that the man behind me can’t sing, or the teenager in front of me is in blue jeans, or that the priest is a weak preacher, or that the lady accross the aisle is living with a man she is not married to, or that they don’t do things here the way they were done years ago, then chances are I will leave there unfulfilled, disapointed and maybe even angry. But if I go to Mass with a spirit of reverence, a spirit of expectation and a spirit of excitement, then chances are I’ll meet Jesus there, I’ll have celebrate joyfully with my community, and I’ll leave fulfilled.

In the end though, if you truly feel closer to God, more reverent and more in touch with the Divine in a Traditional Latin Mass then, no, I don’t think that you should be deprived of that experience. But at the same time, please don’t think that all is bad in the new order either. Some of us love it very much.
 
dear brother,

you perplex me. You, on one hand, make very good sense, but on the other, well, sometimes you do not. As a cantor at the NO Masses, which I was born and raised in, only recently coming home to the Traditional Latin Mass, I know all of the Hymns to which you refer, and I agree that they are beautiful. And I learned them all, and sung them all, at the NO.

I am happy that you do not object to the lyrics that were posted above. The lyrics seem to express at least a couple of the fundamentals of the faith. The melodies, I agree, are quite a different story.

The chant, the Traditional Hymns, both the words and melodies ARE angelic and quite conducive to prayer. I look forward to being exposed to more and more and more on a REGULAR basis.
Maurin, you are indeed blessed if you learned the old Catholic hymns at a NO Mass. If you will check the following link to my parish, you will see some use of the older hymns but mostly our music director focuses on the readings which most of the time don’t lend themselves to the old hymns. For example, we only sing Come Holy Ghost on Pentecost. Immaculate Mary is only sung once in May during May Crowning. The site hasn’t been updated since last year, so sorry about that.

cathedralofstjoseph.org/music.html

We use the Worship III hymnal.
 
But if I go to Mass with a spirit of reverence, a spirit of expectation and a spirit of excitement, then chances are **I’ll meet Jesus there, I’ll have celebrate joyfully with my community, and I’ll leave fulfilled.
**
In the end though, if you truly feel closer to God, more reverent and more in touch with the Divine in a Traditional Latin Mass then, no, I don’t think that you should be deprived of that experience.
…and you illustrate the difference between the NO Church and the traditional Church. You’ll meet Jesus, I will receive Jesus; you will celebrate joyfully with your community, I will join my community in assisting at the Sacrifice of the Mass; you will leave fulfilled, I will leave knowing God allowed me to participate in worshipping Him, even though I know I am not worthy. And yes, the focus of traditon is on the Divine, not the worldly.

I guess it is just a difference in “worldview”.
 
dear brother,

I hope that you realize that I have no affection for the Mass that I was born and raised in. I also attend the Traditional Latin Mass, 1 of 3 Parishes that offer them in the Archdiocese of Miami.

But may I ask you to explain your objection to these words?:

“We are one in the Spirit
We are on in the Lord
And we pray that all unity will one day be restored,
And they’ll know we are Christians by our love…”

Are we not one in the Spirit?
Are we not one in the Lord?
Do we not pray that all unity will one day be restored?
Will they not know us as Christians by the way we love?
Isn’t it St. Teresa of Avila who taught that love is the measure by which we’ll be judged (or correct me if I have the wrong Saint).

And certainly, as St. Augustine said, right is right even if noone is doing it, and wrong is wrong, even if everyone is doing it.
The problem with that song is that it’s all about US…it isn’t directed to God. I could easily imagine hippies seated around a campfire, strummin’ it to the guitar, or muppets singing it for that matter.
 
…and you illustrate the difference between the NO Church and the traditional Church. You’ll meet Jesus, I will receive Jesus; you will celebrate joyfully with your community, I will join my community in assisting at the Sacrifice of the Mass; you will leave fulfilled, I will leave knowing God allowed me to participate in worshipping Him, even though I know I am not worthy. And yes, the focus of traditon is on the Divine, not the worldly.
Now we’re reduced to arguing over semantics. :rolleyes:

After reading the posts and seeing how y’all responded to my questions I think we’re really a lot closer together in than y’all seem to think, much closer than I thought at first. And I certainly believe that we have more in common than we have differences. Whether y’all recognize it or not, there are millions and millions of good people who love the new order, and we’re doing a lot of good in the Church and in the world.

Nevertheless, after reading these posts I will have to agree that y’all have a right to celebrate the Traditional Latin Mass if that’s your wish. And I do think it’s a shame that more Bishops are not more supportive of your needs.

Cheers.
 
I’ll take a crack at this one. Aesthetic or doctrinal? For me it is both, but primarily it is the TLM is directed to God and is emphasizing the Sacrifice of the Mass. The NO is designed to emphasize the Communal aspects of the Mass. To use the buzz words of the day, worship at the TLM is vertical and worship at the NO is horizontal. I prefer to worship God, to look at the Crucifix during mass–not my neighbor across the way–I prefer the use of prayer in the TLM for the Church, the clergy, the souls in purgatory, for my neighbors and for myself. Aren’t we a community? Should I really be able to attend Mass for 20 years and not know the person sitting next to me? Son’t we come to worship God together - not as individuals but as community - isn’t that why we gather? Why is it always either or?

Is the modern rite corrupt? Not by it’s nature, but based on its history, it is apparently much easier to abuse the NO and even corrupt the Mass. The rigid structure of the TLM makes it much more difficult to abuse. Are you sure about this? Is this because the priest cannot ad lib as easily in Latin as in English? Any structure can be violated if the person who is supposed to enforce the structure decides not to follow it. People today are simply less likely to submit to authority–we live in the do it my way society.

What do I object most to? The loss of the holiness of our clergy and our laity. By that, I mean things like the Bishops not upholding Church doctrine because it is not politically correct. The priests changing the Holy Mass on little more that a whim to please the “audience” rather than to please God. The laity disregarding Church teaching such as on birth control, yet still call themselve Catholic. Is this really the fault of the NO mass or a reflection of the massive social upheaval that we experienced in the 60’s and 70’s? Today people are less formal, less respectful and more self-centered–I doubt that they would be less so–if the Mass was still in Latin. People don’t dress up for much of anything anymore. I see people in jeans at the ballet something that 20 years ago would have been unthinkable–actually you probably couldn’t have gotten in the door (I pretty sure the NO isn’t responsible for this).

Peace of Christ,
Mark

If you want to know more of what this Catholic thinks, go to the link–I wrote more and I don’t need to repeat it.

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=129740
 
The problem with that song is that it’s all about US…it isn’t directed to God. I could easily imagine hippies seated around a campfire, strummin’ it to the guitar, or muppets singing it for that matter.
Bless you!
 
Mark, I am a member of a community - a very vibrant community which saw my two sons grow up. Although they were not called to become altar servers, my oldest did serve as a cathedral lector during his junior and senior years of high school We may worship as a community, but we celebrate community with coffee and donuts after Mass and, at my parish, with big community lunches and suppers - a South Louisiana thing.

There was abuse back in the past. No denying it. There were many parishes which offered a 20 minute Low Mass early Sunday morning. But I experienced something different. My parish split off from my old parish in 1965. We celebrated Sunday Mass (Latin) in a neighborhood gymnasium. Later, we celebrated the hybrid Mass in a country club ballroom. Father celebrated daily Mass in the “rectory” which was the living room of his three bedroom brick suburban house within the parish. These 6 am daily Masses were only served by Father and me. I will take the memory of these Masses with me to my grave. Father never cut corners…it was always the same TLM said reverently. When we finally moved to the new rectory around 1967, the Sisters had moved in next door. No difference in the Mass. One of the Sisters was a nun with whom I later (much later) sang in our cathedral choir - 70 miles away.

Your point about societal upheaval is well taken. Which is precisely the point I have been trying to make. It reflects the mores of the times NOT what V II was about. V II said Latin has priority of place. Can you say you see it in the NO?
 
The problem with that song is that it’s all about US…it isn’t directed to God. I could easily imagine hippies seated around a campfire, strummin’ it to the guitar, or muppets singing it for that matter.
Dear Crusade Guy,

Of course, you are correct.

But the Cross is, as I have been taught, ‘latitudinal’ as well as longitudinal, for a lack of better vocabulary. There is a danger, I agree, and I think we all have observed ad nauseum the danger of this low Christology we have been subjected to for the last 40 years (my life span, actually). But there is also a danger in throwing the baby out with the bathwater. Why must we reject the communal aspect of our faith, in order to ensure a High Christology? Does not a High Christology also demand a strong sense of community?

I’m also about as sick of hearing about hippies and muppets as I am sick of being called a Reactionary or a relic. We have a viable choice now. I trust the authority of our Holy Father. I feel it in my heart that the Mass will be more widely available to us in time. Which is why I only worship at the Traditional Mass. And a half a tank of gas a week in order to get there is a grateful sacrifice in order to worship at a Holy Mass. It’s a grateful strain on the budget, and well worth it.

But like it or not, we are all Catholics.
 
Of coarse there are problems with liturgy performed by humanhands, even if put to a Godly purpose. :eek: There is much to be desired in the [Tridentine] Latin Mass 👍 …It is beautiful and can bring a person face to face with Jesus in a profound way.

However, to imply that the Latin Mass was an Utopia of Worship, focused on the Eucharist, Heaven on Earth, etc. in 100 % of the parishes, clergy and laity denies a reality.

The reality was that post WWII era of the latter 1940’s and the 1950’s and early 1960’s were a period where vocations were beginning to delcline, catholic economic status was raising [in the US this was primarily due to the GI Bill that provided college tiotion assitance; catholics were represented in the armed forces in nummbers that exceeded their percent of the population ] but parish contributions were stagnant or declining. Enrollment in parochial schools was declining. In Europe mass attendance was declining at rates even higher than in the US which had greater religious fervor from its conception.

During the latin mass, many of the faithful prayed the rosary or other private devotions, called to the ‘significant’ aspects of the mass by the ringing of the bells. A major observation [often fueled by catholic testimony & witness] was that catholics could sin monday through saturday morning, hit a confessional saturday afternoon, and receive communion on sunday at mass, then begi again with sin on monday.

John Kennedy was elected president [basically on the promise to not ‘be’ catholic] setting the stage for a ‘liberal’ view of catholicism that seprated the catholic from the parishioners secular life except for the ‘sunday’ obligation. All of this was before Vatican II and the innovations.

Many of the ‘innovations’ instituted by Vatican II were actually returns to more ancient practices. The RCIA formation rather than the hap hazard individual instruction, public rites for baptism vs private [liturgy means public work or work of the people].

The early church had communion in the hand. The reception of the Eucharist on the tongue was a change instituted to prevent abuse [use of the Eucharist superstitiously by the faithful and to prevent non believers from destroying or evil uses.] As someone mentioned above, if there is indeed current evidence of wide spread theft and selling on ebay then another change may be required.

The latin language had been the common tongue or vernacular language a change from when greek had been the common tongue which was a change from the original aramaic and the liturgical hebrew.

The Novus Ordo mass can be reverent and bring people face to face with Jesus. It is easy to get distracted but less easy to say a rosary during mass! 🙂

Nostalgia is a good thing. But at times it can fail to see clearly. People have always been able to abuse the mass [many priests were lousy at latin and/or unintelligable, praying private devotions etc].

There is something ‘exotic’ about the latin mass that appeals to our sense of the ‘other world’ that hints at heaven, perhaps that is why we wish so fervently for the mass of our past. Change comes hard and human nature resists alll changes [except the ones we desire 😃 ]

I accept the teaching uthority of the church. When I attend mass I participate to the best of my ability and hopeflly reverently, no matter what format the mass or location. When I fail to do so, I seek pardon and forgiveness, then I try harder…
 
Holy mackarel! I grew up with the Latin Mass. I was an altar boy. The transition to the NO Mass finished just after my senior year in high school in 1969.
… We went along with the change but it doesn’t mean by any stretch of the imagination that we approved.
Thank you for this post. It reflects a point of view I sometimes forget. I myself had to go through major culture shock just converting to Catholicism.

As to the music, since my parish had few musicians, especially for English Masses, I started leading music from RCIA forward. I have always loved the old Catholic Hymns, even if I did have to learn most of them.

PS - Speaking of transitions, I hope all is going well with you back in Louisiana.
 
I simply disagree. The anger I felt from having the rug yanked out from under my feet and no alternative available …Look at it from my perspective…I simply could not stand the guitars and the Muppet Music so very common just after V II. Do you honestly think that singing Simon and Garfunkle’s Bridge over Troubled Waters and Sounds of Silence is appropriate music for the Offertory and Communion for graduation from a Catholic high school?
Brother, I won’t pretend that I understand how shocking and hurt you must have been to have witnessed these events after being raised with the solemn beauty of the Traditional Mass. But the fact remains that all Catholics are required to attend Mass on Sunday, no matter how displeasing the music/homily/architecture is. A valid Catholic Mass is still the highest form of worship we humans can participate in, no matter how aesthetically displeasing it may be. It is simply unacceptable to disregard your obligation because you feel that Mass is not being celebrated with the reverence it deserves. The Holy Sacrifice still ascends with a sweet fragrance to the altar in heaven despite the Simon and Garfunkle music. Anyway I am glad that you are back at Mass now, but I just don’t want anyone else to get the idea that the Church would allow you to miss Sunday Mass because you don’t like the way it is being celebrated. I mean just think for example if the Church went back to having the Traditional Mass as the only available Mass for Latin Catholics, do you think it would be acceptable for all those who prefer the NO to simply stop attending?
 
…and you illustrate the difference between the NO Church and the traditional Church. You’ll meet Jesus, I will receive Jesus; you will celebrate joyfully with your community, I will join my community in assisting at the Sacrifice of the Mass; you will leave fulfilled, I will leave knowing God allowed me to participate in worshipping Him, even though I know I am not worthy. And yes, the focus of traditon is on the Divine, not the worldly.

I guess it is just a difference in “worldview”.
Now we’re reduced to arguing over semantics. :rolleyes:
I have to disagree here, it’s not just semantics it’s a whole different way than it was.
 
But the fact remains that all Catholics are required to attend Mass on Sunday, no matter how displeasing the music/homily/architecture is. **
All Catholics are required to attend Mass. I also quit going to Mass for years. I just couldn’t take the innovations and abuses. After almost 20 years of trying attending a Mass that was unfulfiling, I had to get out for awhile.

**A valid Catholic Mass is still the highest form of worship we humans can participate in, no matter how aesthetically displeasing it may be. It is simply unacceptable to disregard your obligation because you feel that Mass is not being celebrated with the reverence it deserves.
**I will speak only for myself. If you think it is unacceptable, then you must think it is acceptable for the priest to give general absolution before every Mass. You must find it acceptable for the priest to consecrate his “host”, a kaiser roll, along with a straw basket of croutons for the laity. You must find it acceptable to hear homilies that never address your salvation, but do address all the latest political and social events of the week. Yes, it was a mortal sin to miss those Masses, I make no excuse.

**The Holy Sacrifice still ascends with a sweet fragrance to the altar in heaven despite the Simon and Garfunkle music. Anyway I am glad that you are back at Mass now, but I just don’t want anyone else to get the idea that the Church would allow you to miss Sunday Mass because you don’t like the way it is being celebrated.

I mean just think for example if the Church went back to having the Traditional Mass as the only available Mass for Latin Catholics, do you think it would be acceptable for all those who prefer the NO to simply stop attending?
You mean exactly what happened to those of us old enough to go through the changes. The line was get with the program or move on. Do you really think that if the Church suppressed the NO there would be nobody quit going to Mass? Would it be right? NO. But many would quit going to Mass
 
YADA brings up points that I have heard before, and they are great points. Traditionalists need to resist the temptation to condemn everything that came out of V2. There were many legalisms that needed to be tempered. Dietrich vonHildebrand discussed this problem in his marvelous book, Trojan Horse in the City of God, but he was quick to balance his views. He said that the reaction after the council was to throw the baby out with the bath water. So, for example, in monasteries, obedience to authority was placed above virtue. An abbot may ask his monks to do something wrong, but when they protested, he’d invoke his authority to bind their wills. This needed to be reformed. However, those making the rules after the Council said, “Authority was abused, so let’s get rid of authority.” This was uncalled for. VonHildebrand brings up many other examples of this in his book (which I encourage everyone to read).

I think the proper response to YADA’s comments is to the heart of the matter, whether you are Traditionalist or not, and that is: we need good catechesis. We need to realize two things as we strive to live the saintly life.
  1. There is a minimum standard that, if violated, requires reconcilliation with the Church via sacramental Confession.
  2. The goal is not to “stay above the line” but, rather, to soar into the stratosphere of virtue and holiness (which has no upper limit).
Many groups will focus on one or the other standard, but both need to be realized.
 
:tiphat:
YADA brings up points that I have heard before, and they are great points. Traditionalists need to resist the temptation to condemn everything that came out of V2.

I think the proper response to YADA’s comments is to the heart of the matter, whether you are Traditionalist or not, and that is: we need good catechesis. We need to realize two things as we strive to live the saintly life.
  1. There is a minimum standard that, if violated, requires reconcilliation with the Church via sacramental Confession.
  2. The goal is not to “stay above the line” but, rather, to soar into the stratosphere of virtue and holiness (which has no upper limit).
Many groups will focus on one or the other standard, but both need to be realized.
 
A valid Catholic Mass is still the highest form of worship we humans can participate in, no matter how aesthetically displeasing it may be. It is simply unacceptable to disregard your obligation because you feel that Mass is not being celebrated with the reverence it deserves.
I will speak only for myself. If you think it is unacceptable, then you must think it is acceptable for the priest to give general absolution before every Mass. You must find it acceptable for the priest to consecrate his “host”, a kaiser roll, along with a straw basket of croutons for the laity. You must find it acceptable to hear homilies that never address your salvation, but do address all the latest political and social events of the week. Yes, it was a mortal sin to miss those Masses, I make no excuse.
I never said nor did I imply that I endorse such liturgical abuses or find them acceptable. In fact to the best of my knowledge if there was a priest using kaiser rolls and croutons at Mass for Holy Communion then this is invalidates the Mass, but it does not remove your obligation of finding a parish where such abuses were not occuring. There must have been somewhere you could have gone where a valid Mass was offered, even if those changeable parts of the Mass were no longer to your liking. Because the fact is that the Church has the authority to change certain parts of the Mass, obviously not the species for the Eucharist, but language and other things. If you find yourself arbitrarily dismissing these changes wrought by HMC, then how are you different from the protestants and Cafeteria Catholics who want to “decide for themselves” and figure they don’t need the authoritative teachings of the Church founded by Christ Himself. There is nothing worth committing mortal sin for. Nothing!
 
I never said nor did I imply that I endorse such liturgical abuses or find them acceptable. In fact to the best of my knowledge if there was a priest using kaiser rolls and croutons at Mass for Holy Communion then this is invalidates the Mass, but it does not remove your obligation of finding a parish where such abuses were not occuring. There must have been somewhere you could have gone where a valid Mass was offered, even if those changeable parts of the Mass were no longer to your liking. Because the fact is that the Church has the authority to change certain parts of the Mass, obviously not the species for the Eucharist, but language and other things. If you find yourself arbitrarily dismissing these changes wrought by HMC, then how are you different from the protestants and Cafeteria Catholics who want to “decide for themselves” and figure they don’t need the authoritative teachings of the Church founded by Christ Himself. There is nothing worth committing mortal sin for. Nothing!
As I said I will make no excuses. After 20 years of watching the Mass become a test bed of innovation, I couldn’t take it any longer. Not going to Mass never felt right, but to go back didn’t feel right either. As far as finding a better parish, in asking around to friends and relatives, there wasn’t a whit of difference between the parishes. You would just drive further to the same things.
 
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