Relationship and responsibility

[alitaptap]

Imagine you are walking with a friend, when you suddenly come upon a group of men beating up a young person your own age. Both you and your friend begin shouting for help, but do nothing to try to stop what is going on out of fear of what could happen to yourselves. Suddenly you realize that the young person being beaten up is your own younger brother. In an instant, an automatic reaction causes you to forget what could happen to you, and you rush into the group of men trying to stop them from hurting your brother.

1. What did your sudden recognition of your relationship to the one being beaten up have to do with affecting your responsibility towards him?
2. In the moment of automatic reaction, can you remember what Jesus taught us to “love everyone even our enemies”? (Including those who were beating up your brother.)

 

[thistle]

1. What did your sudden recognition of your relationship to the one being beaten up have to do with affecting your responsibility towards him?
2. In the moment of automatic reaction, can you remember what Jesus taught us to “love everyone even our enemies”? (Including those who were beating up your brother.)

Jesus also told us we have the right to defend ourselves and others.
He also said that the greatest gift is to lay down your life for a loved one.

In other words if you see someone beating up your brother you must go in and try to stop the aggressor and defend your brother.
Plenty of time later to pray for the villains!

 

[JRKH]

Imagine you are walking with a friend, when you suddenly come upon a group of men beating up a young person your own age. Both you and your friend begin shouting for help, but do nothing to try to stop what is going on out of fear of what could happen to yourselves. Suddenly you realize that the young person being beaten up is your own younger brother. In an instant, an automatic reaction causes you to forget what could happen to you, and you rush into the group of men trying to stop them from hurting your brother.

Very interesting scenerio -
“men beating up a young person your own age”??? - - (I’m 55)

Will be interested in the responses. Jesus taught that we should Love others as ourselves, so by this, it matters not whether the victim is “blood relation”, We should pile in and help the victim. How many of us will shrink from it (myself included)?

Peace
James

 

[Miserys_Fence]

If I came across someone being beaten–whether the person is a relative or not–I wouldn’t hesitate to react. I’m compassionate towards those who suffer.

I’m also rather ill-tempered and carry a cane.

Miz

 

[alitaptap]

Jesus also told us we have the right to defend ourselves and others.
He also said that the greatest gift is to lay down your life for a loved one.

In other words if you see someone beating up your brother you must go in and try to stop the aggressor and defend your brother.
Plenty of time later to pray for the villains!

Jesus taught us to see everyone as our brother. Now what does this say of those who were beating up your brother? Are they your brothers, too? What is your responsibility to them?

 

[thistle]

Jesus taught us to see everyone as our brother. Now what does this say of those who were beating up your brother? Are they your brothers, too? What is your responsibility to them?

You obviously did not read my post properly. What did you not understand?

Are you seriously trying to suggest that we should never defend ourselves or our families or others if we/they are being attacked?
Loving and praying for your enemies does not mean standing by while thugs rape and kill your wife, mother, sister or daughter or is that what you would do?

 

[alitaptap]

Are you seriously trying to suggest that we should never defend ourselves or our families or others if we/they are being attacked?

No. I was trying to know others view of this scenario. Whether you believe that blood is thicker than water or see everyone as your brother, it can be hard to determine what should be done considering the moment of automatic reaction.

 

[Ponyguy]

Back in my Catholic High School, we had a Physical Education instructor who paired up several guys and put them onto the mat for “boxing lessons.” The instructor told us that “Yes, Jesus told us to turn the other cheek; but God only gave us two cheeks; your opponent also has two cheeks.”

IMHO, any thugs beating somebody up need some “remedial instruction.” (Like a “Chicago-style free lunch.”)

Regards,
Ponyguy

 

[JRKH]

I have not weighed in on this because, being a basically non-violent type, I don’t know how I would react.

That said, I think that a Christian needs to do what he can to break it up. But to do only what is necessary to prevent further injury to any and all parties.
Jumping into the middle of the fight might not stop it and only result in a bigger brawl than already exists.
Yelling that the Police are coming might cause the attackers to break and run.
If there is a hose handy (unlikely I know) a thorough “wetting down” might break it up.

My point being that while we should intervene, our intervention should be proportional and designed not to inflict any more hurt than is necessary. Particularly since we cannot know, by the OP, who started what.

Peace
James

 

[thistle]

No. I was trying to know others view of this scenario. Whether you believe that blood is thicker than water or see everyone as your brother, it can be hard to determine what should be done considering the moment of automatic reaction.

I don’t agree with that at all but I might still be misunderstanding what you are trying to say. Help me be less confused.

If a member of your family is being attacked the automatic reaction should be to immediately help that family member by trying to stop the attack by sufficient force, preferably by getting the attacker to run off, or by physically restraining them until police or other help comes, or if necessary by use of deadly force.
Your automatic reaction should certainly not be to think about the welfare of the attacker.
You can pray for them later!
What am I missing in your comments? What are you trying to get at?

 

[o_mlly]

Jesus also told us we have the right to defend ourselves and others.
He also said that the greatest gift is to lay down your life for a loved one.

In other words if you see someone beating up your brother you must go in and try to stop the aggressor and defend your brother.
Plenty of time later to pray for the villains!

I believe you have given the micro-argument that on a macro level supports both the Iraqui wars.

 

[sinnerdexter]

Jesus also told us we have the right to defend ourselves and others.
He also said that the greatest gift is to lay down your life for a loved one.

In other words if you see someone beating up your brother you must go in and try to stop the aggressor and defend your brother.
Plenty of time later to pray for the villains!

Jesus said, *“… love your enemies, and pray for those who persecute you.” *– Matthew 5:44

It’s tough. But Jesus who said it, did it. He died for us while we were still sinners. He loved us while we were still “enemies.” In fact, His literal enemies who crucified Him He forgave on the cross!

 

[thistle]

Jesus said, *“… love your enemies, and pray for those who persecute you.” *– Matthew 5:44

It’s tough. But Jesus who said it, did it. He died for us while we were still sinners. He loved us while we were still “enemies.” In fact, His literal enemies who crucified Him He forgave on the cross!

Is everyone here afraid to give a direct answer to the question.

If you see, for example, a family member being attacked would you simply stand by watching and let the attacker injure or kill your family member.
Yes or No?

 

[sinnerdexter]

Jesus also told us we have the right to defend ourselves and others.

Can you find evidence in the Bible to support your answer?

Your automatic reaction should certainly not be to think about the welfare of the attacker.

Jesus has united himself to all mankind (including your enimies) to the extent that what we do to others we also do to Him. Christ asks us to strive to give our love not only to the poor and needy but to our enemies, too.

Is everyone here afraid to give a direct answer to the question.

If you see, for example, a family member being attacked would you simply stand by watching and let the attacker injure or kill your family member.
Yes or No?

Remember we are asked by Jesus to become perfect like the Father. Is it possible for us, limited human beings, to become perfect as the Father? Yes or No?

 

[alitaptap]

If a member of your family is being attacked the automatic reaction should be to immediately help that family member by trying to stop the attack by sufficient force, preferably by getting the attacker to run off, or by physically restraining them until police or other help comes, or if necessary by use of deadly force.
Your automatic reaction should certainly not be to think about the welfare of the attacker.
You can pray for them later!

Is this a Catholic teaching?

 

[alitaptap]

I have not weighed in on this because, being a basically non-violent type, I don’t know how I would react.

It’s ok. Two quick questions: Do you experience God’s love in your life? When did you share that love to your neighbor especially to the persons whom you hate?

 

[JRKH]

Is everyone here afraid to give a direct answer to the question.

If you see, for example, a family member being attacked would you simply stand by watching and let the attacker injure or kill your family member.
Yes or No?

No

 

[JRKH]

It’s ok. Two quick questions: Do you experience God’s love in your life?

Every day.

When did you share that love to your neighbor especially to the persons whom you hate?

I can’t think of anyone I hate so I can’t answer the second part of your question.

When I was working there were, of course, people I did not “get on with” so to speak. However, I always would try to treat them with respect, and avoid “antagonizing” them. Since I worked in Quality and would have to “Inspect” their parts, I would make an effort to, 1) Not treat their parts any differetly i.e. hold them to a higher standard, and 2) discuss andy issues with them calmly and respectfully, just as I did with those I got along with well.

Now my circle is quite limited so I don’t come into conflict with anyone.

Peace
James

 

[thistle]

Can you find evidence in the Bible to support your answer?

Jesus has united himself to all mankind (including your enimies) to the extent that what we do to others we also do to Him. Christ asks us to strive to give our love not only to the poor and needy but to our enemies, too.

Remember we are asked by Jesus to become perfect like the Father. Is it possible for us, limited human beings, to become perfect as the Father? Yes or No?

Obviously you and Alitaptap do not know the Church teachings:

**Legitimate defense **

CCC 2263 The legitimate defense of persons and societies is not an exception to the prohibition against the murder of the innocent that constitutes intentional killing. “The act of self-defense can have a double effect: the preservation of one’s own life; and the killing of the aggressor. . . . The one is intended, the other is not.”

CCC 2264 Love toward oneself remains a fundamental principle of morality. Therefore it is legitimate to insist on respect for one’s own right to life. Someone who defends his life is not guilty of murder even if he is forced to deal his aggressor a lethal blow:

If a man in self-defense uses more than necessary violence, it will be unlawful: whereas if he repels force with moderation, his defense will be lawful. . . . Nor is it necessary for salvation that a man omit the act of moderate self-defense to avoid killing the other man, since one is bound to take more care of one’s own life than of another’s.

CCC 2265 **Legitimate defense can be not only a right but a grave duty for one who is responsible for the lives of others. **The defense of the common good requires that an unjust aggressor be rendered unable to cause harm. For this reason, those who legitimately hold authority also have the right to use arms to repel aggressors against the civil community entrusted to their responsibility.

As you can see the Church not only teaches you may use deadly force (if necessary) to defend yourself or family aginst an attacker, but you have a grave duty to defend against an attacker. In other words you may not stand back and watch someone attack and injure, kill, rape one of your family.

I now ask both of you to answer the question I posed before.
Would you stand back and not try to defend a family member against attack.

 

[sinnerdexter]

**Legitimate defense **

CCC 2263 The legitimate defense of persons and societies is not an exception to the prohibition against the murder of the innocent that constitutes intentional killing. “The act of self-defense can have a double effect: the preservation of one’s own life; and the killing of the aggressor. . . . The one is intended, the other is not.”

CCC 2264 Love toward oneself remains a fundamental principle of morality. Therefore it is legitimate to insist on respect for one’s own right to life. Someone who defends his life is not guilty of murder even if he is forced to deal his aggressor a lethal blow:

If a man in self-defense uses more than necessary violence, it will be unlawful: whereas if he repels force with moderation, his defense will be lawful. . . . Nor is it necessary for salvation that a man omit the act of moderate self-defense to avoid killing the other man, since one is bound to take more care of one’s own life than of another’s.

CCC 2265 **Legitimate defense can be not only a right but a grave duty for one who is responsible for the lives of others. **The defense of the common good requires that an unjust aggressor be rendered unable to cause harm. For this reason, those who legitimately hold authority also have the right to use arms to repel aggressors against the civil community entrusted to their responsibility.

As you can see the Church not only teaches you may use deadly force (if necessary) to defend yourself or family aginst an attacker, but you have a grave duty to defend against an attacker. In other words you may not stand back and watch someone attack and injure, kill, rape one of your family.

Where is the Biblical evidence to support your answer?

Are you advocating violence? It seems that enemies are excluded from your love.