Relationship in the gutter.

[whatevergirl]

*lol kindness.

Liberano…but he’s only 20…not like he is worldly and he’s 20 yrs her senior or something. They’re both responsible…he’s responsible for his part, and she is for hers. Hopefully, she can find her way back to her faith…and maybe he can discover something he has been missing. But, I don’t hold her any less culpable for her actions (leaving the faith, and sleeping with this guy), than I do him, just because she’s female. We need to stop giving passes to girls, who do the very things boys do, just because they’re girls. That’s all I’m saying. *

 

[Contra_Mundum_1]

Oh dear, what a topic. I managed to read through the first 5 pages, couldn’t handle any more.

I’ve said a prayer for the poor girl, asked God to help her in this mess. That is the only thing that can help at this point and my guess is that other posters here are doing the same thing.

 

[Kindness]

Maybe we have finally exhausted this topic and all we can do is pray, have we all been praying for them? :yup::sad_yes::nope: Is there a suitable novena or other prayer to bring two young people to Christ?

(I wish I had a Green Scapular)

 

[nicreap]

Liberano…but he’s only 20…not like he is worldly and he’s 20 yrs her senior or something. They’re both responsible…he’s responsible for his part, and she is for hers. Hopefully, she can find her way back to her faith…and maybe he can discover something he has been missing. But, I don’t hold her any less culpable for her actions (leaving the faith, and sleeping with this guy), than I do him, just because she’s female. We need to stop giving passes to girls, who do the very things boys do, just because they’re girls. That’s all I’m saying. *

I agree with you, they are both responsible, yes she did chose to sleep with him, and leave her faith, and get contraception. I think the point be made is that he is also culpable, he seems to be playing it off like he had no part in it. He said he didn’t try to force her to believe anything, but I’m sure he was manipulating her to some degree. I’m a guy, I’ve been infatuated before, and looking back at the things I said, it is obvious it was worded in a way to try and get a result that conformed with what I wanted, didn’t seem like it at the time, but once the cloud of emotions were gone it was plain as day. He may not have told her flat out lets have sex, but by bringing it up, and telling her he wanted her he was giving her the temptation and planting the seeds, YES she chose to act on them, but he telling her he wanted her and then saying he would respect her decision was a way to manipulate her. I’ve never done anything close to what he has, but as a guy you know, you don’t try and force a woman to do something, you tell her it is her decision, and in his case keep dropping hints until she believes it was her decision. Again, I’m guilty of that myself it wasn’t to achieve a sinful end, but it was clearly manipulation.

So, yes it was her choice. but I think what Liberanosamalo is getting at, is that she is experience strong chemical effects at different stages in this relationship, and he isn’t helping with it. It gets a lot harder to follow your faith, and not justify your actions when you are experiencing strong emotions, and I’m guessing she hasn’t been in any situation where she had to. So she was thrown into the lion’s den. I think you are both saying the same thing, you are just arguing over the wording. It seems Liberanosamalo is trying to tell him, it doesn’t matter how intellectual she is, once the hormones and emotions start playing into it, logic and reason, tend to lose their voice.

 

[Ankabaranka_87]

Persuader…I don’t believe you really grasped the gravity of the situation when she gave herself to you…and how Catholics have been taught to understand. And I don’t expect you to, given that you have been born and raised in an environment of a protestant mother and atheist father. She gave a big part of herself when she agreed to sleep with you. I am not the best explainer of this, and maybe some people here would know very good books/lectures to recommend to you. ‘Theology of the Body’ by John Paul II comes to mind.

And I am curious, have you had many encounters with Catholics before you knew her? And know/learned/discussed anything from them about their stance on a few topics?

I have heard many similar stories like this. Someone I knew used to date this guy for 6 years. She used to be very Catholic, go on pilgrimages, retreats, etc. She really loved him and ‘gave in’. With him, she really believed that they will marry. They moved in together after 2 years. She started to doubt the existence of God, started to change mentally, emotionally and spiritually. After 6 years of being together, she wanted to go on exchange for one year. What did he tell her? “You may go, but don’t expect me to wait for you.” She did go, and after one year she finds out that he is engaged to another girl. after one year! What happened with this girl? She started to change again, more embittered then before. When I asked her what happened/why she changed (I didnt see her for the past few years) and she told me “I don’t care anymore”. She regretted that she gave it up, but she honestly thought that they would marry.

I have been following this thread and many of these posters have good advice for you, and will help you see in other perspectives. And I do agree with kage_ar that she (and you) should go see a Catholic psychologist. I am pretty sure that there’s one in your area, if you try to look. A Catholic psychologist would be in a better position to relate to her and understand more of her perspectives/upbringing. Because some of the teachings that she has been brought up with aren’t really the ‘norm’ of society today.

 

[whatevergirl]

I agree with you, they are both responsible, yes she did chose to sleep with him, and leave her faith, and get contraception. I think the point be made is that he is also culpable, he seems to be playing it off like he had no part in it. He said he didn’t try to force her to believe anything, but I’m sure he was manipulating her to some degree. I’m a guy, I’ve been infatuated before, and looking back at the things I said, it is obvious it was worded in a way to try and get a result that conformed with what I wanted, didn’t seem like it at the time, but once the cloud of emotions were gone it was plain as day. He may not have told her flat out lets have sex, but by bringing it up, and telling her he wanted her he was giving her the temptation and planting the seeds, YES she chose to act on them, but he telling her he wanted her and then saying he would respect her decision was a way to manipulate her. I’ve never done anything close to what he has, but as a guy you know, you don’t try and force a woman to do something, you tell her it is her decision, and in his case keep dropping hints until she believes it was her decision. Again, I’m guilty of that myself it wasn’t to achieve a sinful end, but it was clearly manipulation.

So, yes it was her choice. but I think what Liberanosamalo is getting at, is that she is experience strong chemical effects at different stages in this relationship, and he isn’t helping with it. It gets a lot harder to follow your faith, and not justify your actions when you are experiencing strong emotions, and I’m guessing she hasn’t been in any situation where she had to. So she was thrown into the lion’s den. I think you are both saying the same thing, you are just arguing over the wording. It seems Liberanosamalo is trying to tell him, it doesn’t matter how intellectual she is, once the hormones and emotions start playing into it, logic and reason, tend to lose their voice.

*No, I do understand…I do. We’re all responsible for our own lives…our actions. I don’t think the OP should be given this much credit for changing the life of this girl. *

 

[TOP]

I have so much to say to this guy, but I don’t have the heart to tell him. You need to get out of this mess.
I really think the internet has screwed this generation up beyond help. 20!? It’s because of 20 y.o.s that you are not speaking German and saluting the swastika…these paratroopers where in this bar saying, “I have 24 jumps in…I have 31” and this ole timer spoke up and said, “I have 3, Normandy, Sicily and Africa”. I know this has nothing to do with the thread or is it completly relevent. Walk a mile…

 

[Liberanosamalo]

We need to stop giving passes to girls, who do the very things boys do, just because they’re girls.

Well, we do know the old saying about girls using sex to hear “I love you” and boys saying “I love you” to get sex. This guy obviously has long ago disassociated sex from its deeper meaning. He’s had other partners, one he just left as soon as this girl came along. No strings attached. It means more to her, we are led to believe. So much so, she has rationalized away a whole lifetime of teaching.

I’m not saying she isn’t guilty of her own choices. I’m saying precisely that because she feels guilty, she can’t handle it and so has walked away from her faith. Hoping that no faith = no guilt. Medicating that away, or finding a professional to tell her to do her own thing won’t fix it. It’s like wallpapering a room with a crack in the wall and saying “It’s fixed.”

Whatevergirl, I know there are people who enter people’s lives and completely change them for the better. I’ve seen it. The opposite can also happen. Don’t ever underestimate the ability of one friend or one boyfriend to change your child profoundly (or if not change them, lead them to emphasize a particular personality trait that is best left undeveloped.) Love can change someone for the better. A false sense of love, its very counterfeit, can change someone for the worse.

I guess I’ve covered all bases here. The OP has more than enough information. Hopefully he’ll listen. And do the right thing.

 

[whatevergirl]

*Ok, Liberano…yes, I see your points. End of the day, I’m a little tired.

Relating to sex…I was brought up this way–that if a woman wishes to remain a virgin, it is her responsibility to do so. If a man wishes to remain a virgin, it is his responsiblity to do so. Not the other person’s. There are people out in the world who don’t have our best interests at heart…My husband had partners before me, but he was living a chaste life when I met him, and therefore, he and I were on the same page. But, I dated guys who wanted to sleep with me, and had I ‘‘caved’’…would I be sitting here today, blaming them? No…it would have been my fault that I did that. Regardless of the mitigating circumstances…I was ‘‘love drunk,’’ my hormones, etc…I think that is more of what I’m saying.

Our sexuality is our own personal responsibility…not another’s. We can’t expect other people to keep our children virgins, we can’t expect other people to keep our kids, Catholic. Train 'em up, and hopefully, they will go out and remember what you taught them…if they choose another path, they will have to accept the consequences. Like this girl is. My heart breaks for this girl. This is a sad story, indeed. But, unfortunately, only she can change the course of things.

Prayers for both you Persuader and your gf…I pray that you both can find peace again.*

 

[Persuader]

Funny how much I sound like her mother. And if you address her concerns the way you address and dismiss my comments, no there is no way you will make her come around.

Go reread YOUR link on the birth control. See the part where it says it operates by stopping ovulation, but if ovulation occurs, it prevents the ovum from implanting in the uterus by thinning the uterine lining. That is abortifacient. Does she know this? Is she dealing with the possible guilt that she could have already killed an unborn baby too?

Gosh, you’ve heaped a lot on her head. Or maybe Whatevergirl is right, you’ve helped her heap a lot on her own head.

Yes, Whatevergirl, we know she has free will and made choices. But just how rational are the choices of a 19 year old girl in luuuuuuvvvvv with her first serious BF?

Maybe Persuader is unfamiliar with those timeless lyrics:

Come out Virginia, don’t hesitate
You Catholic girls start much too late.
Sooner or later it comes down to fate
I might as well be the one
Only the good die young.

Thanks, Billy Joel.

Persuader, quit arguing with me about hormones. Every woman on this board knows exactly what hormones do to them mentally. Thing is, in a normal woman, those levels fluctuate, so they don’t always feel like crying, drowning in a chocolate cake or stabbing someone in the eye. Unless you have any first-hand knowlege of how estrogen, progesterone and other similar hormone combinations affect a woman mentally, just be quiet and listen and quit dismissing it.

Birth control messes with that fluctuation level and tricks a body kind of into thinking it’s pregnant. With all those emotions. But she’s not. And a psychiatrist isn’t going to take her off birth control because he’s not an OB/GYN. So she’s dealing with altered hormone levels.

I was a 19 year old virgin once. You know what? The guys at school knew they had to marry me if they wanted “some.” I had great male friends. And one of them once said, “No one wants to be the first. Too much responsibility.” What beautiful honesty.

You don’t seem to mind that. Whether it’s a product of your own upbringing… fact is, you took someone else’s virgin bride.

IF you want to get the mother’s attention, you will call her and say this:

“Hi. Don’t hang up. I’m worried about her. I may have been wrong about some things. I want to help her. She does trust me for some unknown reason, and I want her to trust you too. What can I do from my end? What can I do to improve our communication?” Then listen. Don’t argue. Write down what she says. If she says “Quit fornicating with my daughter,” do NOT say “I might, if all else fails and she agrees to let go of my magnificent love-making skillz.” And listen with humility and contrition. And know that whatever happens, THOSE are the people who will have to pay the medical, psychiatric and other bills to clean up whatever mess YOU leave behind. Because she sure wasn’t that way 9 months ago before you met her.

I’m very interested in whether you have talked to her father. And what HE has to say to you.

Long time ago, innocent girls were protected from men of uncertain virtue by their fathers.

Now we send them off to universities where they may be completely unprepared for the shocking confluence of freedom, a boy who is NOT a high school jerk, and lots of time away from the supervision of adults who have their best interest at heart.

Doesn’t matter how you raise a child, you take the chance that put in that environment, they will choose stupidly. It’s every parent’s fear.

No, she wasn’t your puppet. But that doesn’t mean you haven’t manipulated her. Unlike the men I met, who didn’t try anything, (not that I would have begged them), because most of them were Catholic and knew I was the kind you married. And they respected my parents and my family.

Have some respect for her mother’s broken heart and her fear for her daughter’s emotional safety and her immortal fate.

Do they want their daughter marrying an atheist? Well, they’ve seen the effect your atheism had on their own daughter’s faith. They probably wouldn’t encourage someone like you to do the same to the faith they hope for their grandchildren.

Their faith was a precious treasure they handed down to their daughter like some families hand down estates or jewels. They did not intend that it stop with her. If they think it will because of you, they will pray fervently that their daughter dump you and find a nice Catholic man.

They probably are doing just that now.

I should probably be going to bed now (no, not with my gf. Don’t worry), but I can’t sleep very well anyway, so here goes.

1. She researched and decided on the contraception. I had little to do with it. I trust the psychiatrist to refer her to a competent professional if he is not trained in evaluating whether or not the contraception might be causing problems. Remember that he is not a psychologist. There is a massive difference.
2. I have been pretty humble talking with the mother, but I guess I could try what you said. As far as the bills are concerned, medical attention is free in this country, so her parents have nothing to do with that.
3. I have not spoken a lot with her father. He has been complaining from the beginning. He isn’t as devout as her mother, I think, but he has given me a piece of his mind a few times. I don’t know whether it is because of his anger, or if it’s for some other reason, but her mother is the one who will talk to me. Therefore I think winning her over should be my strategy. She seems to be the boss of that family.

 

[TOP]

Persuader, are you going to marry her?

 

[Persuader]

Persuader, are you going to marry her?

Maybe. Before I met her, I had expected to be playing the field for quite some time, but I really love her, so I am not unwilling to give up the variety and settle down.

 

[nicreap]

1. I have been pretty humble talking with the mother, but I guess I could try what you said. As far as the bills are concerned, medical attention is free in this country, so her parents have nothing to do with that.
2. I have not spoken a lot with her father. He has been complaining from the beginning. He isn’t as devout as her mother, I think, but he has given me a piece of his mind a few times. I don’t know whether it is because of his anger, or if it’s for some other reason, but her mother is the one who will talk to me. Therefore I think winning her over should be my strategy. She seems to be the boss of that family.

Stop, trying to win over the mother, she will likely see right through your charade. Focus on your gf, help her in what ever way you can, without causing her to sin, and encourage her to go to confession and meet with priests. You are focusing too much on what her family thinks of you. Help her, do whatever you can to encourage her to look at her faith. Her parents may think you are just trying to trick them or manipulate them by trying to build her faith. Guess what, you are going to have to man up and bear that, don’t argue with them about your intentions. If you intention is to truly help her, then help her, and don’t worry about how her parents are going to think of you. Because they will probablly despise you for a long time. She is the focus, once she is filled with life, happiness, and faith, then you can try and find a way to patch things up with her parents. But that shouldn’t be your concern right now, especially since you don’t even know if you are going to marry her.

 

[Persuader]

Stop, trying to win over the mother, she will likely see right through your charade. Focus on your gf, help her in what ever way you can, without causing her to sin, and encourage her to go to confession and meet with priests. You are focusing too much on what her family thinks of you. Help her, do whatever you can to encourage her to look at her faith. Her parents may think you are just trying to trick them or manipulate them by trying to build her faith. Guess what, you are going to have to man up and bear that, don’t argue with them about your intentions. If you intention is to truly help her, then help her, and don’t worry about how her parents are going to think of you. Because they will probablly despise you for a long time. She is the focus, once she is filled with life, happiness, and faith, then you can try and find a way to patch things up with her parents. But that shouldn’t be your concern right now, especially since you don’t even know if you are going to marry her.

Yes, but I think that part of filling her up with happiness again (no pun intended), means getting things right with her family. Not necessarily making them accept our relationship, but at least making them accept her. They are arguing and in conflict, and I hate to see it. Maybe my intereference is making things worse, but I love her so much and want her to be alright with her family.

 

[TOP]

Maybe. Before I met her, I had expected to be playing the field for quite some time, but I really love her, so I am not unwilling to give up the variety and settle down.

Then man to man, you need to step up. Her mom you’ll never win over, but you may save face with dad, over time. I’ve been there. What ever you do, don’t leave God out of the equation. Her prayers may save you one day. Nuture her faith, because when things get rough, that may be all that is left. And one day you may see God has carried you all this time. If you go for it, give it all you got, despite any lose, your conscience will be clear and at worst, you start over. Take care and do the right thing.

 

[nicreap]

Yes, but I think that part of filling her up with happiness again (no pun intended), means getting things right with her family. Not necessarily making them accept our relationship, but at least making them accept her. They are arguing and in conflict, and I hate to see it. Maybe my intereference is making things worse, but I love her so much and want her to be alright with her family.

They do accept her, they see how empty she is and are trying to help. You said that they are trying to get her to rediscover her faith and leave you, it seems the later won’t change, so stay out of the picture, and let them focus on her faith, she will still argue about you, but if you stop jumping in her family might be able to put you aside for a while and help her with her faith. I agree, setting things right is what is going to help, but her parents have unconditional love for her, and they like you are trying to do what is best for her. Your attempts to win over the family is probablly making things worse, so encourage her to talk and listen to her family, but stop trying to talk to the mother or get them to accept you. FYI, they will never let her stay at her current position, they will always be encouraging and pushing her to find her faith, so unless you help her in whatever ways you can, there will always be tension between them.

 

[Persuader]

They do accept her, they see how empty she is and are trying to help. You said that they are trying to get her to rediscover her faith and leave you, it seems the later won’t change, so stay out of the picture, and let them focus on her faith, she will still argue about you, but if you stop jumping in her family might be able to put you aside for a while and help her with her faith. I agree, setting things right is what is going to help, but her parents have unconditional love for her, and they like you are trying to do what is best for her. Your attempts to win over the family is probablly making things worse, so encourage her to talk and listen to her family, but stop trying to talk to the mother or get them to accept you. FYI, they will never let her stay at her current position, they will always be encouraging and pushing her to find her faith, so unless you help her in whatever ways you can, there will always be tension between them.

From what she is telling me, and after speaking with her mother, I am not impressed with their efforts. She certainly doesn’t feel accepted. She feels alienated.

Hopefully things will improve between them. Maybe I should stop calling, but what do you think about the advice from the mother-clone, Liberanosamalo? Do you think it might work if I frame it like that?

 

[TOP]

Yes, but I think that part of filling her up with happiness again (no pun intended), means getting things right with her family. Not necessarily making them accept our relationship, but at least making them accept her. They are arguing and in conflict, and I hate to see it. Maybe my intereference is making things worse, but I love her so much and want her to be alright with her family.

I just wanted to let you know something. My wife was a virgin and practicing Byzantine Catholic when we met. When we where 19, she got pregnant. I knew her parents would never let me see the child, so I gave her a choice. I said, if you come with me, I’ll take care of you the rest of your life. She came with me and we rented a townhouse and tried to make ends meet. Hard work, working ten hour night shifts…my son was born just after one of those tens. Anyways, 2003 and I was dying from cancer at the age of 32. We had 4 kids. All I wanted was to hold her hand if I died, I knew the end was close and I told her that if I died, to find a good man for the kids, to move on. Well, I survived and in 2005, I had a conversion experience. During it, the Lord made sure that I knew that my family was His and I was just a caretaker. We finally had our civil marriage blessed by the Church. And it has been downhill since then. Oh well you do your part. Just to say, you never know. God Bless.

 

[Persuader]

I just wanted to let you know something. My wife was a virgin and practicing Byzantine Catholic when we met. When we where 19, she got pregnant. I knew her parents would never let me see the child, so I gave her a choice. I said, if you come with me, I’ll take care of you the rest of your life. She came with me and we rented a townhouse and tried to make ends meet. Hard work, working ten hour night shifts…my son was born just after one of those tens. Anyways, 2003 and I was dying from cancer at the age of 32. We had 4 kids. All I wanted was to hold her hand if I died, I knew the end was close and I told her that if I died, to find a good man for the kids, to move on. Well, I survived and in 2005, I had a conversion experience. During it, the Lord made sure that I knew that my family was His and I was just a caretaker. We finally had our civil marriage blessed by the Church. And it has been downhill since then. Oh well you do your part. Just to say, you never know. God Bless.

Powerful story. I really empathize.

However, I want you to know a couple of things to ease your mind (if you are worried). First of all, she is using contraceptives (I know it’s wrong according to the faith). You can say she might get pregnant anyway, but these contraceptives are the most effective. Better than the pill, and better than condoms. Almost a hundred precent. If we stop using contraceptives for whatever reason, I will not be having vaginal sex with her before I make sure we can support a family. I can promise that much, at least.

 

[nicreap]

Hopefully things will improve between them. Maybe I should stop calling, but what do you think about the advice from the mother-clone, Liberanosamalo? Do you think it might work if I frame it like that?

Yes, if you are going to call her you should frame it exactly like that. And don’t argue with what her mother says, and actually listen and do what she asks. Will that help your relationship between you and your mother, maybe several years from now, if you marry their daughter. right now, unlikely, they still see you as the one who brought their daughter to this place. But it will be good for your gf, and her family. hopefully, it will help you bring her back to her faith, and to her family. again don’t expect praise or acclaim from her family for doing so. But if you are trying to do what is best for her, listen to what Liberanosamalo said, and say that when you talk to her mother, again don’t try and justify yourself, don’t try and explain yourself, and if she starts yelling at you don’t hang up let her do so, and then ask again what you can do to help their daughter.