Relationship in the gutter.

[TOP]

Powerful story. I really empathize.

However, I want you to know a couple of things to ease your mind (if you are worried). First of all, she is using contraceptives (I know it’s wrong according to the faith). You can say she might get pregnant anyway, but these contraceptives are the most effective. Better than the pill, and better than condoms. Almost a hundred precent. If we stop using contraceptives for whatever reason, I will not be having vaginal sex with her before I make sure we can support a family. I can promise that much, at least.

ABC is going to tear at her conscience as a Catholic. The pill is actually an aboritfact. I was working one summer as a stone mason laborer and we where expecting our second child. The guy I worked with said, if you wait til you can afford a kid, you will never have one.

 

[Persuader]

Yes, if you are going to call her you should frame it exactly like that. And don’t argue with what her mother says, and actually listen and do what she asks. Will that help your relationship between you and your mother, maybe several years from now, if you marry their daughter. right now, unlikely, they still see you as the one who brought their daughter to this place. But it will be good for your gf, and her family. hopefully, it will help you bring her back to her faith, and to her family. again don’t expect praise or acclaim from her family for doing so. But if you are trying to do what is best for her, listen to what Liberanosamalo said, and say that when you talk to her mother, again don’t try and justify yourself, don’t try and explain yourself, and if she starts yelling at you don’t hang up let her do so, and then ask again what you can do to help their daughter.

Ok, I will endure her abuse. I just hope there is something at the end of it. To be honest, I am not used to being talked to like she is talking to me. It is hard to accept, especially because I try my hardest to be a good person.

If I look around, what do I see? Sex, temptation, money, shopping, fashion, parties. Just shallow BS, all of it. It doesn’t really matter. On TV, in the papers, on the news… they never speak about what really matters in life. I understand why. Because all that matters is money. They will spread the information that sells.

Now, what do you expect from us? You expect us to be moral, to have all those important things figured out? But what do you feed us, what is expected by public opinion, what is considered popular? All the things you tell us not to do, that’s what.

This is not an attack on you. I’m sorry. I’m just so tired of the double standard.

 

[nicreap]

Ok, I will endure her abuse. I just hope there is something at the end of it. To be honest, I am not used to being talked to like she is talking to me. It is hard to accept, especially because I try my hardest to be a good person.

If I look around, what do I see? Sex, temptation, money, shopping, fashion, parties. Just shallow BS, all of it. It doesn’t really matter. On TV, in the papers, on the news… they never speak about what really matters in life. I understand why. Because all that matters is money. They will spread the information that sells.

Now, what do you expect from us? You expect us to be moral, to have all those important things figured out? But what do you feed us, what is expected by public opinion, what is considered popular? All the things you tell us not to do, that’s what.

This is not an attack on you. I’m sorry. I’m just to tired of the double standard.

I know it is hard to accept, but you need to out of love for your gf humble yourself and take the verbal abuse, again don’t fight back, don’t defend your actions or tell her she is wrong, ask what you can do to help her daughter, and seriously listen to and consider what she tells you.

No, you’re exactly right, that is what society is trying to sell, and tells everyone what is important. The Catholic church has maintained it’s teaching that all of that is irrelevant. The Catholic church has upheld that bending to the pressures of society doesn’t grant us freedom and no real lasting happiness. No, the Catholic churches beliefs, are contrary to what society teaches, and it has never changed what it has believed to conform to what was popular, in fact, the Catholic church teaches now what it did 2000 years ago. No, we can’t force you to live by our moral code, but that is what she was raised on, and whether she realizes it or not, it is affecting her, and is deeply imbedded into who she is. What we are asking you to do, is show your love, not the short lived emotional love, but the deep rooted love that values what is best for them over all things. We are telling you that since she was raised Catholic and since those values have been placed in her, that she can’t have sex casually outside a relationship, regardless of how much she tells you it means to her or how much she wants it. You said it yourself, her faith made her happy, vibrant, and full of life, and you need to help her rediscover that, and yes, that means you will need to stop having sex of any kind with her, and encourage her to stop using contraception. No, it isn’t going to be easy, and no it won’t be the most enjoyable thing for you either. But you love her, so it’s not about you. Regardless of what she tells you, she NEEDS her faith, and that means deep down she realizes she NEEDS to stop having sex with you. You say you have stopped trying to initiate it which is good, no work on telling her no, continuing to have sex doesn’t show that you love her, the fact you have had friends with benefits, shows that sex doesn’t equal love. You need to show her a true deep love, the kind that if you actually posses it, then your relationship has a chance to go somewhere. A loving father will punish a child, not that I’m telling you are punishing her by refusing sex. But true love is taking the hard road, doing what is in their best interest even when they don’t like it, and when it hurts you as well. Try saying no, try telling her that it is against what she used to believe, and that you are going to try and help her live by the faith she once had, again, I doubt you will succeed everytime, but if you truly love her, and truly try and cut back, you will get better at saying no, and maybe living according to the faith she once had, will help her begin accepting it again. Like I said, this isn’t going to be easy for you, but if you do truly love her then you should be willing to endure this, out of a desire for what is best for her. And if you do have a true deep love for her, and she does for you, then all the grief and difficulties you are putting up with now, will be worth it and pay off later.

 

[Liberanosamalo]

Persuader, with all due respect, I wasn’t going to opine again on this subject. But your last post has merit.

May I suggest there is a sector of society that has spoken out against “Sex, temptation, money, shopping, fashion, parties. Just shallow BS, all of it.” That is the churches of the world. And especially the Catholic Church, which has become very unpopular among the elite media because it stands in direct contradiction to those shallow things.

Now, what do you expect from us? You expect us to be moral, to have all those important things figured out? But what do you feed us, what is expected by public opinion, what is considered popular? All the things you tell us not to do, that’s what.

The Catholic Church has had it figured out for 2000 years. It feeds its children the truth.

No double standard.

You are finding out in life that God always forgives, people sometimes. Nature never.

Don’t mess with nature.

And don’t call what her mother is saying “abuse.” You aren’t used to being talked to like that? Well, your trying to be a good person has been in an society full of all the things you say is shallow BS. You might have fit in with those standards nicely. Now you’ve found yourself in contradiction to a different set of values being taught by a Catholic family. They are angry. They see you as a direct participant and a persuader of their daughter to go down a bad path.

She feels alienated from them because she is taking your side and defending you. The parents are in a no-win position. Their daughter is defending the person who has participated most in her descent into depression and alienation. Now that she’s sleeping with you, you have the upper hand in some respects for now. To be frank, they’re hoping you play true to form and get bored and move on to the next girl and maybe they can get their daughter back and try to restore her.

IF you walked up to someone and punched them in the face and they began yelling at you, would you call that abuse and say you didn’t deserve it? Well, what you’ve done to those parents is worse than that. And I’d bet money the father has the mother talk to you because he’s afraid what he’d do or say if he talked to you again. She’s probably the nicer one in all of this.

You don’t have the moral high ground to characterize the reaction of this family to your despoiling their daughter and continuing an affair with her. In some areas of the world and in some religions you would have been handled much more harshly, and so would she.

Why not look into the countercultural stance the Catholic Church has taken for all these years against the shallowness and materialism of the world. You might find the good work done by Catholic institutions and the sacrifice of many speaks to the good that is in you.

 

[Persuader]

I know it is hard to accept, but you need to out of love for your gf humble yourself and take the verbal abuse, again don’t fight back, don’t defend your actions or tell her she is wrong, ask what you can do to help her daughter, and seriously listen to and consider what she tells you.

No, you’re exactly right, that is what society is trying to sell, and tells everyone what is important. The Catholic church has maintained it’s teaching that all of that is irrelevant. The Catholic church has upheld that bending to the pressures of society doesn’t grant us freedom and no real lasting happiness. No, the Catholic churches beliefs, are contrary to what society teaches, and it has never changed what it has believed to conform to what was popular, in fact, the Catholic church teaches now what it did 2000 years ago. No, we can’t force you to live by our moral code, but that is what she was raised on, and whether she realizes it or not, it is affecting her, and is deeply imbedded into who she is. What we are asking you to do, is show your love, not the short lived emotional love, but the deep rooted love that values what is best for them over all things. We are telling you that since she was raised Catholic and since those values have been placed in her, that she can’t have sex casually outside a relationship, regardless of how much she tells you it means to her or how much she wants it. You said it yourself, her faith made her happy, vibrant, and full of life, and you need to help her rediscover that, and yes, that means you will need to stop having sex of any kind with her, and encourage her to stop using contraception. No, it isn’t going to be easy, and no it won’t be the most enjoyable thing for you either. But you love her, so it’s not about you. Regardless of what she tells you, she NEEDS her faith, and that means deep down she realizes she NEEDS to stop having sex with you. You say you have stopped trying to initiate it which is good, no work on telling her no, continuing to have sex doesn’t show that you love her, the fact you have had friends with benefits, shows that sex doesn’t equal love. You need to show her a true deep love, the kind that if you actually posses it, then your relationship has a chance to go somewhere. A loving father will punish a child, not that I’m telling you are punishing her by refusing sex. But true love is taking the hard road, doing what is in their best interest even when they don’t like it, and when it hurts you as well. Try saying no, try telling her that it is against what she used to believe, and that you are going to try and help her live by the faith she once had, again, I doubt you will succeed everytime, but if you truly love her, and truly try and cut back, you will get better at saying no, and maybe living according to the faith she once had, will help her begin accepting it again. Like I said, this isn’t going to be easy for you, but if you do truly love her then you should be willing to endure this, out of a desire for what is best for her. And if you do have a true deep love for her, and she does for you, then all the grief and difficulties you are putting up with now, will be worth it and pay off later.

I do not agree with everything you are saying about the church, or how great it is, but I will try with my gf. You have really helped me on this forum, more than the other sources I have spoken to (friends and the like, who are just telling me I am crazy for even trying), and I am grateful for that.

 

[tabsie3210]

I’m very relieved to see that some kind person erased my original response to this post. Thank you.

Persuader, if you haven’t read it, you’re lucky, and if you did, I’m sorry I was such a jerk. I have a knee-jerk reaction to a lot of things, and one of them is the complaint about how “unhappy” people act, when coming from an atheist.

I’m sorry. I was a jerk, as I said.

Now, I would like to reitterate something - what does she have to live for if there is no God?

Your complaint is that she used to be full of life, and now that she’s come around to your way of thinking, she’s very depressed and seems lifeless.

I have a few questions for you to consider. You don’t have to answer them here, but they’re things to think about.

1. Do you believe in life after death? (Surprisingly, there are a lot of people who don’t believe in God but believe in an afterlife.)
2. Do you believe that there’s some kind of higher structure to the universe that gives purpose to all life, even if that structure isn’t God?
3. Do you hold with the current scientific consensus that eventually, all life will be extinguished eveywhere in the universe and only empty space, random hydrogen atoms, and a few black holes will be left?

I’m going somewhere with this.

The reason I’m asking is that you have to decide right now if there’s some kind of higher purpose in your own life before you can convince her to seek a higher purpose in her own life.

I’m Catholic because I believe 100% in the Catholic faith and don’t believe anything outside of it. Stating that right now so people don’t misunderstand me.

Even two people who don’t have the same faith can find some common ground if they believe in a similar structure of being - that there’s something higher than themselves, that there’s hope to hold on to beyond this life, and that everyone has a purpose. Plenty of atheists believe in some kind of purpose, even if they don’t believe in God. Buddhists, for example, believe in “gods” and an afterlife, but they don’t believe in a Supreme Being or that the end result is some kind of heaven. Buddhists believe that the ultimate is the unraveling of the spirit, or oblivion, and that’s the goal. It’s very Eastern and I disagree with it, but Buddhists share a lot of the basic, fundamental beliefs in kindness and goodwill, and in purpose, that Catholics have.

You’re an atheist. There are plenty of atheists out there who believe in purpose and Human Exceptionalism. I suggest that you look them up and study them.

Before you can convince her to go back to her faith and find what she loved in life, you have to come to some kind of common ground with her. There are plenty of ethical and moral atheists out there who share in the same beliefs as the Catholic Church without feeling the need to recourse to God.

When you have a strong foundation in something simliar to what she wants to believe in, then you can help her find her own faith and belief in something that gives her purpose. Without that, you get nothing. She’ll just stay depressed and won’t have any reason to trust you when you suggest she go back to her faith.

If you can concede something, even if not everything, then you’ll give her a foundation of hope that she can build on, because she’ll see that you’re coming to the conclusion that there’s something bigger than just living for a hundred years and turning to dust.

 

[Persuader]

Persuader, with all due respect, I wasn’t going to opine again on this subject. But your last post has merit.

May I suggest there is a sector of society that has spoken out against “Sex, temptation, money, shopping, fashion, parties. Just shallow BS, all of it.” That is the churches of the world. And especially the Catholic Church, which has become very unpopular among the elite media because it stands in direct contradiction to those shallow things.

The Catholic Church has had it figured out for 2000 years. It feeds its children the truth.

No double standard.

You are finding out in life that God always forgives, people sometimes. Nature never.

Don’t mess with nature.

And don’t call what her mother is saying “abuse.” You aren’t used to being talked to like that? Well, your trying to be a good person has been in an society full of all the things you say is shallow BS. You might have fit in with those standards nicely. Now you’ve found yourself in contradiction to a different set of values being taught by a Catholic family. They are angry. They see you as a direct participant and a persuader of their daughter to go down a bad path.

She feels alienated from them because she is taking your side and defending you. The parents are in a no-win position. Their daughter is defending the person who has participated most in her descent into depression and alienation. Now that she’s sleeping with you, you have the upper hand in some respects for now. To be frank, they’re hoping you play true to form and get bored and move on to the next girl and maybe they can get their daughter back and try to restore her.

IF you walked up to someone and punched them in the face and they began yelling at you, would you call that abuse and say you didn’t deserve it? Well, what you’ve done to those parents is worse than that. And I’d bet money the father has the mother talk to you because he’s afraid what he’d do or say if he talked to you again. She’s probably the nicer one in all of this.

You don’t have the moral high ground to characterize the reaction of this family to your despoiling their daughter and continuing an affair with her. In some areas of the world and in some religions you would have been handled much more harshly, and so would she.

Why not look into the countercultural stance the Catholic Church has taken for all these years against the shallowness and materialism of the world. You might find the good work done by Catholic institutions and the sacrifice of many speaks to the good that is in you.

How many christians is it now, over 2 billion? How many catholics, over a billion? I will at least say this, if the adherents of those religions are for real, why are they not doing anything to change it? Hypocrites, the lot of them. I don’t want to make this into a discussion about religion, but I don’t see them as any better than anyone else.

These thoughts about doublestandards are not new for me. Me and my gf have talked about these things right from the start.

I understand the parents anger better now. I will try to do what you said when speaking with her mother.

 

[nicreap]

How many christians is it now, over 2 billion? How many catholics, over a billion? I will at least say this, if the adherents of those religions are for real, why are they not doing anything to change it? Hypocrites, the lot of them. I don’t want to make this into a discussion about religion, but I don’t see them as any better than anyone else.

These thoughts about doublestandards are not new for me. Me and my gf have talked about these things right from the start.

I understand the parents anger better now. I will try to do what you said when speaking with her mother.

Yes, there are Christians that are christian by name alone, but the ones who actively practice what they believe try to avoid that double standard, and follow their beliefs not society.

Like we have said, ONLY talk to the mother, if you are not going to argue or justify herself, if you are going to admit you were wrong and ask how you can help their daughter, if you have some other intention than that, and you seriously don’t think you were wrong in any way, or have no intention of listening and trying to do what the mother tells you, then don’t even waste the time calling her.

 

[Jay53]

That is fine. We will probably not have children before marriage. If she regains her faith, that is a given.

I know that contraception is a sin according to the faith, just as the sex. I do not think the contraception will fail. She is using this: netdoctor.co.uk/sex_relationships/facts/contraceptiveimplant.htm

If she, against all odds, would get pregnant anyway, I would support her in her decision. I am sure she would keep the baby. But this is not a realistic situation, I think.

I haven’t read to the end of the thread yet, but in case anyone else hasn’t already pointed this out:

What are the **side-effects **of Implanon?
There are quite a few, the main one being frequent or prolonged vaginal bleeding – which may affect a fifth of all users. But some women get no periods – and are very pleased about that!

Other possible side-effects include:

headache
spots
weight gain
breast tenderness
dizziness
**depression **
changes in level of sexual desire (rare).

(emphasis obviously mine! )

How long has she been on this birth control?

 

[Persuader]

I’m very relieved to see that some kind person erased my original response to this post. Thank you.

Persuader, if you haven’t read it, you’re lucky, and if you did, I’m sorry I was such a jerk. I have a knee-jerk reaction to a lot of things, and one of them is the complaint about how “unhappy” people act, when coming from an atheist.

I’m sorry. I was a jerk, as I said.

Now, I would like to reitterate something - what does she have to live for if there is no God?

Your complaint is that she used to be full of life, and now that she’s come around to your way of thinking, she’s very depressed and seems lifeless.

I have a few questions for you to consider. You don’t have to answer them here, but they’re things to think about.

1. Do you believe in life after death? (Surprisingly, there are a lot of people who don’t believe in God but believe in an afterlife.)
2. Do you believe that there’s some kind of higher structure to the universe that gives purpose to all life, even if that structure isn’t God?
3. Do you hold with the current scientific consensus that eventually, all life will be extinguished eveywhere in the universe and only empty space, random hydrogen atoms, and a few black holes will be left?

I’m going somewhere with this.

The reason I’m asking is that you have to decide right now if there’s some kind of higher purpose in your own life before you can convince her to seek a higher purpose in her own life.

I’m Catholic because I believe 100% in the Catholic faith and don’t believe anything outside of it. Stating that right now so people don’t misunderstand me.

Even two people who don’t have the same faith can find some common ground if they believe in a similar structure of being - that there’s something higher than themselves, that there’s hope to hold on to beyond this life, and that everyone has a purpose. Plenty of atheists believe in some kind of purpose, even if they don’t believe in God. Buddhists, for example, believe in “gods” and an afterlife, but they don’t believe in a Supreme Being or that the end result is some kind of heaven. Buddhists believe that the ultimate is the unraveling of the spirit, or oblivion, and that’s the goal. It’s very Eastern and I disagree with it, but Buddhists share a lot of the basic, fundamental beliefs in kindness and goodwill, and in purpose, that Catholics have.

You’re an atheist. There are plenty of atheists out there who believe in purpose and Human Exceptionalism. I suggest that you look them up and study them.

Before you can convince her to go back to her faith and find what she loved in life, you have to come to some kind of common ground with her. There are plenty of ethical and moral atheists out there who share in the same beliefs as the Catholic Church without feeling the need to recourse to God.

When you have a strong foundation in something simliar to what she wants to believe in, then you can help her find her own faith and belief in something that gives her purpose. Without that, you get nothing. She’ll just stay depressed and won’t have any reason to trust you when you suggest she go back to her faith.

If you can concede something, even if not everything, then you’ll give her a foundation of hope that she can build on, because she’ll see that you’re coming to the conclusion that there’s something bigger than just living for a hundred years and turning to dust.

I did read it, but no worries.

I understand your questions. These are things I have thought a lot about. I like to consider myself a deep thinker. I do not think discussing them here on this thread is appropriate, but I will say this:

1. No, I do not believe in an after life in the sense that a person retains his/her personality or identity after death.
2. I have no idea. The question of whether or not the universe has intentional existence, is interesting, though.
3. I have not studied the science behind that. I normally follow scientific consensus.Since I am not a cosmologist, and have not really delved into the science, I do agree in principle, but I have no real opinion since I haven’t studied it very well.

 

[tabsie3210]

If you’re really sincere in wanting to get her someplace where she’s comfortable going back to God, you two need more middle ground than you have at the moment.

I’m big on Consciousness studies (the science of why we have a mind as well as a brain). One person I enjoy (though I disagree with his religious philosophy) is Dr. Christian deQuincey. He’s a former Catholic who is now rather non-religious and is philosophically and scientifically a pan-experentialist.

Naturally, I disagree with his religious principles - if all matter has a proto-mind (and I think it does) then that’s because God created all of creation to give praise and glory to Him, in my humble opinion.

(Ironically, deQuincey is who I was reading when I felt the pull back to Orthodoxy - he lead me back to the traditional Catholic faith, even though he disagrees with it.)

But I digress.

deepspirit.com/sys-tmpl/door/

This is the link to his site - Deep Spirit - which is a good philosophical starting point. A refusal to believe in God doesn’t mean you have to refuse to believe in everything that Catholics believe, and there’s a lot of middle ground here that both Catholics and non-Catholics can look at positively and appreciate.

My strongest recommendation to you would be to start here, with Deep Spirit, and then from there study the Catholic faith. I feel that deQuincey’s studies are interesting, but they fall short without God in the picture. But you need to start somewhere, to develop some kind of philosophy.

Because, honestly, if you love this girl, and she loves you, then what YOU do will matter to her. If you tell her she needs to get back to her faith, but you don’t have a philosophy of purpose, then she’ll know it, and be influenced by your lack of philosophy, and everything you’re trying for will fall flat.

I know it sounds like a lot, but to help her, you have to decide if you’re willing to change some of yourself as well.

I recommend deQuincey’s book, “Radical Nature,” and its follow-up, “Radical Science.” You can find both at most Halfprice Bookstores, and they’re always around in Barns & Nobel.

And to my fellow Catholics, let me say this - I don’t condone a false belief. I believe there’s only one Truth. It may be that this young lady was brought into Persuader’s life to help him reach Heaven. If that’s the case, then she needs to get back to her roots quickly. And if Persuader really loves her, he has to change himself from the inside out.

This is more than just giving up sex with her until they’re married, more than just learning to “obey our rules for her sake.” He has to change, or there will be an undercurrent of something wrong in their relationship forever. If he loves her, he’ll be willing to try. Getting him to the Catholic faith may not be possible, but if he can come to an understanding where he doesn’t feel totally alienated from Catholicism - if he comes to believe in even some of what we do, such as Free Will and Universal Purpose and the like - then that gives her a fighting chance of reclaiming her faith, and if nothing else, I’d rather she not be lost, even if we can’t save him.

And there’s nothing more depressing than believing that your life means nothing, and all that is, is rot.

Persuader, thank you for being a good sport about all this. What I really want to tell you is, please seriously consider joining the Church. At least get “Catholicism for Dummies” and study it, and then study some of the serious arguments in favor of God’s existence. A good series (even if it’s by a Protestant, he’s not a Catholic-basher, he’s frequently quoting Catholics as a matter of fact) is the “Case for” series by Lee Strobel. I recommend the first book you read be “The Case for Faith,” followed by “The Case for a Creator.” The first book talks about why one should have faith at all, the second, what scientific proof has come about in favor of God. And you can complete the series and pick up more and more proof from a former Atheist himself. Strobel was an atheist who came to Christ only after two years of detailed study. He was a legal journalist, meaning he knew how to pick up information the way a good journalist does, and that’s what lead him away from Atheism.

I have a feeling, though, that you’d reject that suggestion, so I went the other road first, because you need to start somewhere. But I’m hoping you’ll at least consider Strobel, or other atheists-turned-Christian, so you can better see where we’re coming from.

And thank you for being so kind about my outburst.

 

[LongingForLight]

Persuader,

When I was 19, I was dating an agnostic-leaning-atheist. At the time, my faith was weak and I was questioning. We started living together, and I got on the Pill. The sex was great, we were madly in love, but something started going wrong. I felt like the life was draining out of me. I started to feel like the only time I was happy was when we were having sex - but afterwards, I felt horrible. I didn’t really want to not be a virgin anymore. I started wanting to live according to my faith again, but was struggling with the wretched reality that I loved my boyfriend more than God, and that’s how I was living my life. I was crying daily, and my boyfriend was incredibly torn and guilt-ridden.

Then he did the things that changed the entire direction of the relationship: He quit having sex with me and encouraged me to go to Confession. We continued to live together because we had shared credit cards, bank accounts, lease, etc., but we were chaste. I could receive the Eucharist again! He started attending church with me - first on holidays, then every Sunday. We got engaged a few months later, and have now been (mostly) happily married for 4.5 years.

So while my situation wasn’t identical (I stayed Catholic, although I had a LOT of “If you exist” conversations with God during that time), it was very similar to what your girlfriend is experiencing. My advice: Stop having sex. Encourage her to stop using the contraceptive (especially since many have side effects of depression) and to talk to her priest. See if she will confess her lack of faith (and sexual relationship) in the sacrament of Reconciliation - because Reconciliation is now precisely what you want for her. Consider that the “life” she had wasn’t just a psychological state, but was something real and concrete - a true gift of the Holy Spirit. You CANNOT help her regain her faith unless you encourage her to life like a Christian, including chastity, so giving up sex is absolutely necessary - or you will be saying one thing with your mouth, and another thing with your body.

And if you really want to help her get her faith back? Pray. Pray for her, desperately. If God exists, He exists regardless of whether or not you believe in Him. So you might as well pray. If He doesn’t exist, the worst case is that you will be talking to yourself or to empty air. If you are in a public space at the time, people might look at you strangely - I speak from experience You don’t have to lie and tell God you believe in Him. Just lay it out straight - you are desperate, you don’t know what to do, you don’t believe in Him, but if He does exist, you want Him to help reopen your girlfriend’s heart. And consider praying for yourself a little while you are at it I assume that if God does exist, you’d want to know the truth and believe in Him. So tell Him that. He can change hearts. Give Him whatever little willingness you have to work with Him-if-He-exists, and trust that He can do the rest.

And consider praying with your girlfriend. Even without faith, you can still pray. Just talk to God-if-He-exists together, and seek Him. He will answer you.

I hope this helps. I really feel for you. I’d ask my husband to stop by and offer his $0.02, but he’s pretty shy and not one to give advice. I’ll ask him for his thoughts as well, though. Since he’s been in something similar to your shoes, he might have some insight.

 

[prodigalson12]

I’m not going to address the gal in this scenario, my prayer if for Persuader himself.

Lord, please lead this lost soul to know you
To know your ways
To know your mercy
To know your love

Bring him into the fold, to lead him along the path to thine kingdom
May your will be done in all things
May you send him a shepherd to bring him closer to you
May your guidance lead him to your son Jesus Christ

Please Lord, I beg of you to intervene directly or through your angels, saints, and Mary herself to aid in this recourse for him.

May God receive this prayer from this wretched soul.

Amen

 

[browser1]

Hi Persuader,

First off let me set you straight on one fact, I am not a hater, and I do not believe that anyone else on this forum is. Your calling posters on this forum ‘haters’ is presumptuous, and quite frankly a little offensive. You need to learn the difference between anger and hate. Yes, many of us are angered by what you have done, but we are never permitted to, nor want to hate anyone.

Do you think I should just leave her in the state she is in? Leave her lost and depressed?

Well, yes. Her family is quite capable of picking up the mess you created. I know that if she was my family she would have been forcibly removed from the unhealthy situation she is now and been given immediate help. Obviously you don’t think time is an important consideration, or you would have done something by now. And yes, she may feel as though she has been rejected and she may be upset for a long time, but that is nothing compared to the spiritual suffering she will endure if she continues to pursue a relationship with you

Look, I don’t think she is a weak person

I beg to differ; if she could lose her faith so easily then I don’t think she was a very strong in it, at all. Read about people like Elizabeth Smart, what she was put through, and how she came out of it, so strong in her faith; an inspiration to all of us. She is whom you’d call a strong person.

I don’t know if this is good advice. It seems to me, you just want to make me feel like an evil person. I am not evil. Trying to convince her of that argument for suffering will not work. I can’t see the soundness of it, and neither will she.

Well you don’t know what evil is then. It is Satan’s job to draw people away from God, and you are his puppet. You have been doing his work and that, my friend, makes you evil. You don’t need to murder someone to be evil.

I didn’t say she was my property, I just said that I was reluctant to leave her with her family, considering she is arguing with them right now

Did you consider that she was not in their good books at the point in time because she’s dating you? Maybe if you left, her parent would take her back in an instant. Maybe it’s you who is keeping her from them. From your subjective viewpoint you may be blind to this.

Refuse her because of some moral codes I don’t even believe in myself

You don’t have to believe it to be true

You know nothing of my morals, and implying I act purely on emotion

Actions say much about morals. Morals are absolute and universal. I personally believe that the CC is the best dictate of moral behavior, not only because they were given to us by God, but also because they are truly altruistic in nature. What is your benchmark on how to judge morals?

But I would like to see our children make up their own minds

What else will you let them make up their own minds about? What to eat, when to go to bed how to dress, what age they can start dating? Children need to be taken care of and told what to do for a reason

I am calling her mother because I want her to try to fix her relationship with her daughter. It seems to me like she is driving her away because she is not happy with her daughter’s decisions. I think that is wrong, and I think she needs to accept her daughter as she is.

I would not accept my daughter if she was a junkie. What you need to understand is, there is more compassion in not tolerating someone’s wrong behavior, rather than accepting someone as they are

Cutting out the sex, I don’t know about that. The sex is great, and I feel that the sex is maybe the only thing that makes her happy now.
and I will abstain from sex after I have exhausted some other avenues,
If nothing else works, I would consider cutting out the sex, but I think I should try some other things first, because the sex is really emotional and great between us. It really connects us.
However, I am willing to try cutting out the sex, but I think I should try exploring some other avenues first
I might be wrong about the sex, and maybe I will cut it out after trying some other things
I will take your advice about cutting out the sex into consideration, but I think I will try some other strategies first
I will consider telling her these things about the sex, but as I said, this is something we both enjoy very much, so I will exhaust some other avenues first

You sound like a broken record. Pray, do tell us what these other ‘avenues’ are because they don’t seem to be working for you. You are incorrigible, a lot like my brother, he won’t take anyone else’s advice even though his own doesn’t work for him. In the end it is he who suffers. If you really were as intelligent as you make yourself out to be, then you would see that what you believe is not working, and maybe take someone else’s advice, for a change.

I have said many times now that I am willing to cut the sex, even willing to leave her

Less talk, more action

Look, I am educated. I have read about religion. I do not think more reading will persuade me, and I think it would be a waste of time.

Such an ego for someone so young. I can understand though; about three years ago I was at your age and thought the same way you do. You cannot begin to realize how wrong you are and when you do you will be so ashamed of the person you were. It will be time that opens your eyes. You have no idea about how much there is that you don’t know. The more knowledge you gain, the more you will realize how little knowledge you actually possess.

 

[browser1]

I don’t know if I want to marry her, and I don’t know how long I could wait without any sex before I would really struggle

Very selfish

She doesn’t believe she is depressed

No, depressed people usually don’t

.

English is my third language, so maybe you got the wrong idea about the intellectual level we’re at. As stated earlier, we are both good university students

I can see it’s your third language. You don’t seem to be understating what we are trying to communicate to you. Either that or you just don’t want a bar of it.
Being at a good university says nothing about ones intellect. People buy their way into good universities all the time.

I don’t see the point of praying for her. I don’t believe in it.

Like I said earlier, just because you don’t believe it doesn’t mean that it won’t work. You may feel quite stupid when you do it, but know that even though you’ve turned your back on God, doesn’t mean that he’s done the same to you. All you have to say is God, I don’t believe that your there but I truly hope for all our sakes that you are, and even though I am undeserving please help me. It’s as simple as that.

Maybe my intereference is making things worse, but I love her so much and want her to be alright with her family.

This is very selfish, and is probably the reason you are not making any headway

To me he is a concept in the human psyche with no existence independent of that psyche

The inspiration that God gives even the most simple minded and the goodness that He creates through us is simply mind-blowing. Even if God was a figment of our imaginations, He’s still a very healthy figment to believe in considering how much good is done in the world out of belief in Him.

goodness in people even without God.

Yes it can to an extent. And you are somewhat good by trying to help, but unfortunately that is not good enough.

and she told me she didn’t think God would mind her having sex with the man she loved. She told me she was convinced God would understand the way she felt about me, and that she was sure God would see what she saw in me.

Well then she really never knew God to begin with. You have to tell her this. And tell her that even thought you don’t believe it and she doesn’t believe it doesn’t mean you are right. The two of you are not authorities on anything.

I think you are underestimating her intellect

I think you are underestimating ours.

If I look around, what do I see? Sex, temptation, money, shopping, fashion, parties. Just shallow BS, all of it. It doesn’t really matter. On TV, in the papers, on the news… they never speak about what really matters in life. I understand why. Because all that matters is money. They will spread the information that sells.
Now, what do you expect from us? You expect us to be moral, to have all those important things figured out? But what do you feed us, what is expected by public opinion, what is considered popular? All the things you tell us not to do, that’s what.
This is not an attack on you. I’m sorry. I’m just to tired of the double standard.

Why do you think that the CC would ever teach that these things are important? I’m beginning to think that you have never picked up a piece of Catholic lit. You do yourself the greatest disservice to be uninformed. The Church has never taught what is popular. why do you think the CC is hated so much by non Catholics and the secular world, and why do you think that for 2000 years it has stood as strong as ever, unchanged?

How many christians is it now, over 2 billion? How many catholics, over a billion? I will at least say this, if the adherents of those religions are for real, why are they not doing anything to change it?

Why do you not change it? Why point fingers? The CC does a lot for the world, but how many billions of Catholics are there, and how many billions of people in this world? Are you telling me that the Catholic should solve the entire world’s problems singlehandedly?

Hypocrites, the lot of them. I don’t want to make this into a discussion about religion, but I don’t see them as any better than anyone else.

So you’ve judged us all with the same brush. If we are no better than anyone else, why expect something better of us?

Persuader, I really hope that you see the errors in your ways, and stop trying to resist everyone who is trying to help you. You seem to have an excuse ready for everything. There has been some really good advice offered here. I suggest you take some of it.

Good luck to you, I will pray for both you and your girlfriend

 

[flyingfish]

Oh, and you’re WAAAYYY out of line telling the mother to accept her daughter as she is.

Why is that? What do you think the mother should do? Cut the daughter out of her life? Continually fight with her in an attempt to change her mind back? Reduce their relationship to her telling her to leave the atheist boyfriend and come back to the faith?

The mother can disagree with the daughter’s lack of faith and love choices while still having a good relationship with her, while still loving her, and accepting her.

 

[flyingfish]

Persuader: Since you didn’t answer the question about where you lived and what languages you spoke I couldn’t help but be curious.

Luckily for me, you have made 83 posts since your join date on November 29th.

The only significant breaks in posts when you could have been sleeping were:

Nov 30, 2.38 am to Nov 30, 3.48 pm
Nov 30: 9.18 pm to dec 1 10.34 am
Dec 1 last activity 8.13 pm – current Dec 2, 4am

(Website measures time in PST, or GMT - 8)

You said your girlfriend has blonde hair, you live in a country with national health care, and that English is your 3rd language…

If you lived in Europe (~9 hours ahead) it means you were sleeping sometime between

11.40 am Nov 30 to 12.48 am Dec 1
6.18 am Dec 1 to 7.34 pm Dec 1
5.13 am Dec 2 to Dec 2 1pm or later

Possible but I don’t think very likely!

Australia ~ 19 hours ahead…

So, 10pm - 10 am on the night you didn’t sleep
4pm - 5am , etc. not likely.

East Asia, say ~ 15 hours ahead

Eastern time seems far more plausible with,

5.38 am to 6.48 pm on the night you said you couldn’t sleep
12.18 am - 1.34 pm
11.13 pm - 7 am and later

So, some guesses, you are an immigrant studying in Canada, or you live in Quebec where it is common for the French speaking people to also speak English very well.

Maybe you are of Asian descent living in Quebec, hence 3 languages?

 

[Ankabaranka_87]

Flyingfish…

one of his posts he mentioned that he comes from a Scandinavian country.

 

[flyingfish]

Flyingfish…

one of his posts he mentioned that he comes from a Scandinavian country.

He doesn’t, he talked about Scandinavian countries in examples he gave, not that he lives in one.

 

[prodigalson12]

“QUOTE” I don’t know if I want to marry her, and I don’t know how long I could wait without any sex before I would really struggle
“/quote”
tells it all about this persons character, I’m really trying hard to pray for him, this is just a struggle for me, and I know, very much a struggle for her parents as well not to take more direct action. Man o man, atheism at it’s best here, you see why it’s so, so, so wrong…