Relationship in the gutter.

[Pro-Life_Teen]

This is all a big mess, sadly.

Persuader- you said she was going to her priest to talk. Go with her, speak to her and the priest together. Explain to her how you want only to help her, and listen to what the priest has to say about this.

Her mother has a right to be angry at all this. But you are trying to help, so I’ll give you credit for that. You’re not an evil person. Your actions may well have led to her abandoning God, but you’re trying to rectify that.

Pray for her. Talk to a priest yourself about how sex may have made this harder on everyone in the relationship.

I don’t believe you have to leave her. You do have to stop having sex with her [and discuss this with a priest as well- make sure she does know this isn’t you abandoning her or not loving her. She has to see this as you trying to help and as a good thing] and focus on helping her.

Think about yourself later, after she’s alright and smiling again. She’s the priority right now.

 

[Persuader]

I did not mean it as a direct comparison.

However, you are an atheist and your “discussions” of faith disturbed her, in conjunction with other things, to the point where she discontinued the practice of her faith. This has made her sad, depressed… a different person. It is her ongoing relationship with you that continues her down this path. And, without it she is quite likely to return to her true belief system.

On the flip side, let’s say you stay together-- and she does regain her faith. Then what? How do you expect to be married to a practicing Catholic and not have your religious differences be a continual issue? How will you raise children? How will you deal with her practice of the faith? What about celebrating holidays-- Christmas, Easter, etc-- in a Catholic way?

Your belief system is the core of who you are. You two have incompatible belief systems. I don’t understand why you believe that to be of little significance.

The only similarity you know of between us, seems to be that we are both atheist. Telling me about how you compartmentalize your relationships, and put him into the “don’t know what I was thinking” group, isn’t nice. You cannot know that she will see it like that. I am sure she doesn’t see it like that.

If she regains her faith, we will see what happens. If she wants to stay abstinent, I will try this. I celebrate holidays as I am a cultural christian, so I think that will be fine. As far as marriage and kids are concerned, this might present some problems. My hope is that she will not be as strict as her parents are. I wouldn’t object to her telling our kids about her faith, and celebrating holidays and the like according to her faith. But I would like to see our children make up their own minds, so not too much preaching if it could be helped. As far as I am concerned, this is not a pressing matter, and we will have plenty of time to work this out if it comes to it. Right know, I am only worried about making her happy again.

 

[1ke]

. As far as marriage and kids are concerned, this might present some problems. My hope is that she will not be as strict as her parents are. I wouldn’t object to her telling our kids about her faith, and celebrating holidays and the like according to her faith. But I would like to see our children make up their own minds, so not too much preaching if it could be helped.

Might present some problems? You are severely underestimating this.

First, Catholics are obligated to baptize and raise their children as Catholics. Not suggested. Not recommended. Obligated. And that doesn’t mean “let them decide for themselves.” It means raise them, teach them, show them, and live a Catholic life with them. It means religious education, reception of the sacraments, weekly mass attendance, prayer-- all of it.

A Catholic must also receive permission from their bishop to marry a non-Catholic. A dispensation if it’s an unbaptized person. And, the Catholic must promise to raise their children Catholic when they apply for this permission.

Young people often think these things are not material and can be “overcome.” Or, as you stated that you will just cross the bridge when you come to it. But, in reality it turns out much differently.

I urge you to think forward to the logical outcome of this relationship before you continue to work so hard to save it.

It’s a quite serious obligation.

 

[Persuader]

This is all a big mess, sadly.

Persuader- you said she was going to her priest to talk. Go with her, speak to her and the priest together. Explain to her how you want only to help her, and listen to what the priest has to say about this.

Her mother has a right to be angry at all this. But you are trying to help, so I’ll give you credit for that. You’re not an evil person. Your actions may well have led to her abandoning God, but you’re trying to rectify that.

Pray for her. Talk to a priest yourself about how sex may have made this harder on everyone in the relationship.

I don’t believe you have to leave her. You do have to stop having sex with her [and discuss this with a priest as well- make sure she does know this isn’t you abandoning her or not loving her. She has to see this as you trying to help and as a good thing] and focus on helping her.

Think about yourself later, after she’s alright and smiling again. She’s the priority right now.

She has been talking to her priest, but not lately. She says that she doesn’t believe it anymore, and that she doesn’t feel the presence of God anymore. She says she isn’t interested in talking with him at this point.

I don’t see the point of praying for her. I don’t believe in it. I will make an appointment with a priest later.

 

[Persuader]

Might present some problems? You are severely underestimating this.

First, Catholics are obligated to baptize and raise their children as Catholics. Not suggested. Not recommended. Obligated. And that doesn’t mean “let them decide for themselves.” It means raise them, teach them, show them, and live a Catholic life with them. It means religious education, reception of the sacraments, weekly mass attendance, prayer-- all of it.

A Catholic must also receive permission from their bishop to marry a non-Catholic. A dispensation if it’s an unbaptized person. And, the Catholic must promise to raise their children Catholic when they apply for this permission.

Young people often think these things are not material and can be “overcome.” Or, as you stated that you will just cross the bridge when you come to it. But, in reality it turns out much differently.

I urge you to think forward to the logical outcome of this relationship before you continue to work so hard to save it.

It’s a quite serious obligation.

I may be underestimating, but I think you are overestimating. I am sure there is some flexibility here. I don’t think this is the right time for us to speak about this. I imagine we will discuss these issues if we want to get married. I will certainly not marry her before we have an agreement about these issues.

 

[1ke]

. I imagine we will discuss these issues if we want to get married. I will certainly not marry her before we have an agreement about these issues.

Ah, I see. I misunderstood “we will have plenty of time to work this out if it comes to it.” I took it to mean if/when you had kids. Not if you start talking marriage.

 

[Persuader]

Ah, I see. I misunderstood “we will have plenty of time to work this out if it comes to it.” I took it to mean if/when you had kids. Not if you start talking marriage.

No problem. I am not an idiot. Of course I wouldn’t get her pregnant intentionally without discussing their upbringing.

We have sex, but she is using contraceptives, so that should be fine.

 

[monicatholic]

I am sure there is some flexibility here.

and you’re sure that prayer is useless and you’re sure that you have time and you’re sure that you’re being judged and and you’re sure that sex isn’t why/how/ part of the reason she lost her faith.

persuader, you’ve rewritten the rules of your own universe. but there’s no such thing as your own universe. for an educated man, you seem unteachable-- obstinate even.

please don’t call her poor mother again unless it’s to say, “i take a solemn vow to not sleep with your daughter anymore unless I marry her.” you simply cannot know what you’ve taken from those poor people because you cannot see what you’ve taken from their daughter.

 

[SMHW]

No problem. I am not an idiot. Of course I wouldn’t get her pregnant intentionally without discussing their upbringing.

We have sex, but she is using contraceptives, so that should be fine.

Keep in mind that serious Catholics not only are not sexually active when not married… but when they do marry they are not to use contraception. Periodic abstinence (and there are very accurate means to determine days of female fertility) is the only form of birth spacing that Catholics believe is moral.

 

[1ke]

No problem. I am not an idiot. Of course I wouldn’t get her pregnant intentionally without discussing their upbringing.

In my world, children come after marriage. When I said “if/when” you have children I meant AFTER marriage. I was not referring to your illicit sexual relationship.

I think many people put off the difficult dicussions until they are forced to confront them (i.e. until they are getting married). However, by the time they are “talking” marriage they are already so emotionally involved they tend to not see things rationally as they have invested so much in it.

We have sex, but she is using contraceptives, so that should be fine.

(a) It’s not fine. Contraception is a gravely immoral act (as is premarital sex). Both premarital sexual relations AND contraceptions violate the precepts of the Catholic faith (i.e. God’s law).

(b) Contraception fails, and therefore while you may not “intentionally” get her pregnant she may become pregnant nonetheless. If you are having sex, you are implicitly accepting parenthood as a possibility.

 

[Persuader]

and you’re sure that prayer is useless and you’re sure that you have time and you’re sure that you’re being judged and and you’re sure that sex isn’t why/how/ part of the reason she lost her faith.

persuader, you’ve rewritten the rules of your own universe. but there’s no such thing as your own universe. for an educated man, you seem unteachable-- obstinate even.

please don’t call her poor mother again unless it’s to say, “i take a solemn vow to not sleep with your daughter anymore unless I marry her.” you simply cannot know what you’ve taken from those poor people because you cannot see what you’ve taken from their daughter.

I really don’t think that is fair. I have not said I am sure her mood has nothing to do with the sex we’ve been having. I have listened, and I will abstain from sex after I have exhausted some other avenues, or after I am more certain that is what she wants/needs. You’re advice about the importance of abstinence for catholics have registered with me.

I am calling her mother because I want her to try to fix her relationship with her daughter. It seems to me like she is driving her away because she is not happy with her daughter’s decisions. I think that is wrong, and I think she needs to accept her daughter as she is.

 

[Persuader]

In my world, children come after marriage. When I said “if/when” you have children I meant AFTER marriage. I was not referring to your illicit sexual relationship.

I think many people put off the difficult dicussions until they are forced to confront them (i.e. until they are getting married). However, by the time they are “talking” marriage they are already so emotionally involved they tend to not see things rationally as they have invested so much in it.

(a) It’s not fine. Contraception is a gravely immoral act (as is premarital sex). Both premarital sexual relations AND contraceptions violate the precepts of the Catholic faith (i.e. God’s law).

(b) Contraception fails, and therefore while you may not “intentionally” get her pregnant she may become pregnant nonetheless. If you are having sex, you are implicitly accepting parenthood as a possibility.

That is fine. We will probably not have children before marriage. If she regains her faith, that is a given.

I know that contraception is a sin according to the faith, just as the sex. I do not think the contraception will fail. She is using this: netdoctor.co.uk/sex_relationships/facts/contraceptiveimplant.htm

If she, against all odds, would get pregnant anyway, I would support her in her decision. I am sure she would keep the baby. But this is not a realistic situation, I think.

 

[kib]

I became an atheist my sophomore year of college and began a very slow reversion a year and a half later. You seem to think you have all of the answers but there is no doubt that you do not. I certainly didn’t have them. There have been many atheists that have become theists later in life. C.S. Lewis is the first to come to my mind. Although you think you are smart, you’re not that smart.

Why not study apologetics together? I know you said both of you already know the arguments, but I doubt it.

Start here:20 Arguments for the Existence of God

I also recommend: Handbook of Christian Apologetics

Good luck. I will pray that your girlfriend resolves her emotional problems and both of you find Christ.

“I love those who love me, and those who seek me diligently find me”
Proverbs 8:17

 

[flyingfish]

I have taken some steps today, but it didn’t go as well as I hoped…

I couldn’ sleep very well last night, as I have been thinking of what actions to take. I talked to my gf earlier today, and confronted her about some of the things we have talked about. She told me the same things she have said already. That she has lost her faith, and that she doesn’t feel the presence of God anymore. She also told me that she doesn’t believe God exist, that her former feelings might have been some form of self-deception.

It is clearly painful for her to talk about, I can see that she becomes uncomfortable when we speak about this. She did confess that she had been reading atheistic literature, and also Nietzsche. Altough Nietzsche himself wasn’t a nihilist, I am concerned about her attitude, I’m concerned she might be sympathizing with nihilism.

We talked a bit more about this before I told her that I really wanted her to see a psychiatrist, and that I really think she should work on her relationship with her family and friends. She said that she was fine with her friends. She is very easy to love, and most of them are not as religious as she used to be. So I believe her on that. I don’t think she is catching that much heat from them. I know that a few of them doesn’t like me though (one of them has clearly expressed interest in me, and didn’t appreciate the rejection), so I am a bit worried they might be trying to badmouth me to her.

She said that her family was being unreasonable, and that they had hurt her feelings. I think this issue with her family might be a bigger factor in her mood than she is letting on, and that she should try harder to patch things up. I said as much, and she got angry with me. She said that she had talked to them, but that they didn’t want to hear it. They told her to leave me, and come back to the faith, but she refused. I really think they are at a stalemate at this point.

She doesn’t believe she is depressed. She says that the place in her heart where God used to be is empty, and that it is just difficult to deal with. Then she said she was trying to fill it with her love for me. That really hit me, and I couldn’ help myself. So we had sex. Afterwards, I asked if she would see a psychiastrist at least. If she didn’t want to see her family or talk to a priest, do that at least. She said she would do it if her heart didn’t mend. I asked for a time limit, and she said she would think about it. After that I left her, and she went to see her friends or something.

I don’t think I really managed to do anything. We just talked like we have done before, no progress. I called her mother later, and tried to talk to her. She just cussed my *** out, telling me how I had corrupted her beautiful daughter, how she would never forgive me for it. When I try to bring up the fact that our relationship might last, and that I thought she should try to accept her daughter as she is, she told me she would never give her daughter to a skirt chaser like me. I just hang up on her at this point, as it didn’t seem to do any good talking to her about this, and it is a limit to the amount of abuse I am willing to endure.

I think you should be careful about talking to her too much about this and pushing her too hard to see a counselor.

You said that she’s only been depressed for a few weeks, give her time. You don’t want to give her the impression that you don’t accept her when she’s not very happy and energetic.

Just be accepting and demonstrate that you love and are interested in her even when she’s down, and not as entertaining as she used to be.

 

[kage_ar]

From a mother’s pov.

This girl, this sweet child - mom and day carried her to a baptismal font and gave her to Jesus. They promised to do all they can to impart the Faith to this little girl. They took her Mass and taught her about God, they taught her to pray and to be kind and to love. As she grew, this mom has one goal in mind - to see that child go to heaven. The mother would likely trade her own eternal soul in order for that sweet girl to go to heaven. College and degrees and worldly success are nice, but, in the Christian mother’s heart, heaven is the real true desire for our children.

So, this little princess that they love so much, that mom has spent countless nights praying over, goes away to school.

She meets a boy. A boy who will help her get to heaven? No, a boy who hates God, hates all God stands for and wants nothing but to possess that precious pure loving glowing girl. He wants to possess her and stamp out that light, to make her dark and empty like he is - he desires and lusts after this girl.

He uses the word “love” because he can sense that she longs for love. He lies, as no one can love without God inside them.

He uses romance and words and intellect, and he succeedes in taking her precious purity - this throws her into a dark place, where she is cut off from that grace and love and light of God - she has willing followed this lying boy into mortal sin.

Her parents are in despair. They know that if this little girl dies tomorrow, she will not see God.

And you wonder why they don’t like you?

Be a man, call her parents and apologize for crushing that flower they have cherished. Ask them to please forgive you for the damage you did to her, damage that may never be repaired.

 

[Persuader]

I became an atheist my sophomore year of college and began a very slow reversion a year and a half later. You seem to think you have all of the answers but there is no doubt that you do not. I certainly didn’t have them. There have been many atheists that have become theists later in life. C.S. Lewis is the first to come to my mind. Although you think you are smart, you’re not that smart.

Why not study apologetics together? I know you said both of you already know the arguments, but I doubt it.

Start here:20 Arguments for the Existence of God

I also recommend: Handbook of Christian Apologetics

Good luck. I will pray that your girlfriend resolves her emotional problems and both of you find Christ.

“I love those who love me, and those who seek me diligently find me”
Proverbs 8:17

I have read the best arguments, and I know she has done so too. I friend of the family is a philosopher, and I have discussed this with him at length. Although philosophy is not my academic field, I am well versed in some parts of it, and I have taken classes in logic as well as an ethics class.

We will both continue exploring this, of course. I am not saying I know everything, or have all the answers. I am only saying that I do not see a change for myself on this issue.

 

[Persuader]

I think you should be careful about talking to her too much about this and pushing her too hard to see a counselor.

You said that she’s only been depressed for a few weeks, give her time. You don’t want to give her the impression that you don’t accept her when she’s not very happy and energetic.

Just be accepting and demonstrate that you love and are interested in her even when she’s down, and not as entertaining as she used to be.

I might be overreacting a bit. It is just that she has changed so fast and so dramatically. It has been almost a month since her mood started deteriorating, but you are right, I will give her some time to deal with this.

 

[Persuader]

From a mother’s pov.

This girl, this sweet child - mom and day carried her to a baptismal font and gave her to Jesus. They promised to do all they can to impart the Faith to this little girl. They took her Mass and taught her about God, they taught her to pray and to be kind and to love. As she grew, this mom has one goal in mind - to see that child go to heaven. The mother would likely trade her own eternal soul in order for that sweet girl to go to heaven. College and degrees and worldly success are nice, but, in the Christian mother’s heart, heaven is the real true desire for our children.

So, this little princess that they love so much, that mom has spent countless nights praying over, goes away to school.

She meets a boy. A boy who will help her get to heaven? No, a boy who hates God, hates all God stands for and wants nothing but to possess that precious pure loving glowing girl. He wants to possess her and stamp out that light, to make her dark and empty like he is - he desires and lusts after this girl.

He uses the word “love” because he can sense that she longs for love. He lies, as no one can love without God inside them.

He uses romance and words and intellect, and he succeedes in taking her precious purity - this throws her into a dark place, where she is cut off from that grace and love and light of God - she has willing followed this lying boy into mortal sin.

Her parents are in despair. They know that if this little girl dies tomorrow, she will not see God.

And you wonder why they don’t like you?

Be a man, call her parents and apologize for crushing that flower they have cherished. Ask them to please forgive you for the damage you did to her, damage that may never be repaired.

I understand that her parents do not like me very much right now, and I have apologized for my part in making her sad. However, I do not think it is fair of you to say that I hate God, that I want her to be depressed, and that I am a liar. I have clearly said that I want her better, the way she used to be. I have said I am willing to help her find her faith if that is what she wants. I do not hate God, I just do not believe God exist. To me he is a concept in the human psyche with no existence independent of that psyche. How does that make me a liar? I am simply saying what I believe.

I understand that you sympathize with her mother since you are a mother yourself, but I would urge you to consider that there might be goodness in people even without God. I am hoping I will be able to convince her mother of this, so that she will, in time, accept my relationship with her daughter.

Maybe you want to watch this to see that atheists are not so bad: youtube.com/watch?v=fdVucvo-kDU

 

[kage_ar]

God is love. One cannot have love without God. It is impossible. One can have pleasant feelings, romance, lust, desire, affection, empathy, laughter, pleasure - however, the one thing that cannot be had with out God is love.

If you care about this girl, stop using her body and strangling her faith.

 

[Liberanosamalo]

“God is dead” ~Nietzsche

“Nietzsche is dead” ~God

The supernatural, like the natural, abhors a vacuum. You take God out of someone’s life, something else will rush in to fill the void.

She even told you she has an empty place where God used to be. She is grieving that in a way neither of you understand… you because you are obtuse and cannot seem to grasp any emotion or idea you do not feel or possess yourself, and her because she is young and naive.

And so your solution is to have intercourse with her again. After everything we told you.

Your ego must be ready to explode with pride. You have become her god. But unlike the real one, you will never make her happy. Not eternally happy. Not as you are now. Any attempt we here on earth make to love is really an attempt to grasp the eternal love of God. The closest we come to that is in sacramental marriage, where we are to be the face of God to our spouses and help them to attain that perfection and love of God Himself that we were created for. Is this girl becoming holier and better for knowing you? Did you lead her to God?

Her mother has you pegged right. You are a skirt chaser. You even told us you don’t intend to marry her right now. To you, sex is affection. It means nothing but something you do when kissing isn’t enough with your companion. You’ve already left others. Easy come, easy go.

To her, it was the culmination of the love of her life. But she threw it away on you. And you are an uncertain thing. She’s been on birth control for a few months. It’s starting to affect her hormones and psyche. Probably adding to her depression. Along with her estrangement from her family.

Let me tell you why her mother will never like you. To her, you are the moral equivalent of a drug dealer who got her beautiful cherished daughter hooked on drugs. But you are the drug. And it’s destroyed her. She sees you as the agent of her daughter’s decay and destruction. Now you see the damage you’ve caused, and you’re willing to do some things to fix it, or try and find people who will give her a pill or something and fix what you broke.

If you had any guts, you’d tell her “Your family was right about me. I was wrong to do what I did. I can’t do this to you any more. Please, let them help you. They loved you long before I ever knew your name and I had no right.”

But you won’t. You’ll sleep with her again tomorrow. And she’ll still be depressed. Because not even you are a good enough lover to replace God in someone’s life. And eventually the day will come when she doesn’t want you to touch her. She won’t know why, but it will happen.

All you had was sex. Without that, your relationship is nothing. Her mother knows that. You had nothing else to offer. You took more than you gave. I’m not saying you don’t feel affection for the girl. But if you really did, you would have respected her moral code and not talked her out of it. You would have been a man and said, “I know you Catholics don’t do that stuff and I respect that. So I"m going to try to become a better person and not sleep with you. But it doesn’t mean I don’t love you.” But you didn’t do that.

Other posters have tried to tell you that your little story isn’t new, it isn’t romantic, and it isn’t special. It’s an old retread of a college cliche.

God help you if you led her to the vacuum of nothingness and she gets sucked into the vortex. You’ll go on to your next girlfriend and try to impress her with your pseudo-intellectual “I’m too good for God” garbage. Her family will be left to mourn their loss.

It was all a parlor game to you, wasn’t it… debating how much better a life without God is… . how freeing. How adult. How empty and in vain. The poor girl knows it, but right now is addicted to the drug called Persuader. And you’ll keep doling it out. Because it feeds your ego and makes you feel good that she wants you more than God.

She needs to be OFF the birth control hormones. They are not good for her. She needs to be away from you so she can get her head together.

But you won’t listen to anyone here except to argue that if it really goes irretrievably and dangerously downhill maybe you’ll someday contemplate that we have a point. And as a last resort you might take our advice.

Hope by the time you realize you don’t have all the answers it’s not too late for her.