Relationship in the gutter.

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Persuader, I’ve read more of the thread. Again, I’m sorry if my first post was harsh. I’m trying to figure out what happened here…

she said she couldn’t understand why there’s so much suffering in the world. This is a question that people have tried to understand for centuries, but luckily tehre are some great answers out there… has she ever heard the Catholic teaching on suffering?? maybe knowing it would help her.

I understand how she must have felt when she lost faith, because at one point in my life I almost lost my faith. It was very traumatizing and painful for me. It’s like losing the most important thing in your life. That’s why I reacted so strongly to your post.

I’m assuming your girlfriend is Catholic… what if she talked to a good priest about all this?

I also HIGHLY advise you to cut out the sex. You said it makes you both happy, but what you’re talking about is a temporary emotion. Not lasting happiness that a person’s relationship with God can give them. By having sex with her before marriage, you lead her into a mortal sin. This caused her to leave God’s grace, which perhaps weakened her faith. I’m not putting all the blame on you, obviously I can’t expect you to agree with me on this, and your girlfriend consented to the sex too. But intimacy without the commitment of marriage does not lead to lasting happiness. Love is more than an emotion…love is choice for the other person’s good. Their REAL good, not just temporary excitement.

Here’s an article that helped me understand the Catholic view:
insidecatholic.com/Joomla/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=244&Itemid=48
 
Don’t you think thinking that God does not even exist is more likely to cause you to abandon the Catholic teaching that sex is wrong, than having sex is to cause you to stop believing in God?
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Nope. I’ve said it before. See CS Lewis, Mere Christianity.

Belief follows behavior. We see it all the time. The person who used to be anti-divorce… till they fell in love with a married person and then all of a sudden they weren’t so anti-divorce any longer.

Or the person who believed drunkeness was a sin until they began to party and then decided that being drunk wasn’t so wrong.

No one going along in a happy, joy-filled life, giving to others, helping others stops and says, “I’m too happy. Let’s think about this. Does the God who gave me all these blessings really exist? Let’s talk myself out of it. That way I can have nothing to live for, I can feel empty and alone… oh, let’s start sleeping around.”

Nope.

The cliche is the other way around. Nice girl meets not so nice guy. And she throws everything she has ever been taught out the window because he’s got her hooked on the big O. And she’s never had anyone make her feel that way in her life and she’s bonded with him in a way that will devastate her to become unbonded with him.

She can now have one of two thoughts in her head. To have both would make her insane:
  1. I am a bad woman. I am doing bad things. I will go to hell because I am living deeply in sin and fornicating with someone who owes me nothing and has told strangers he wasn’t thinking about marrying me even. I’m just one in a series of girls he’s slept with and I traded eternal life with God for him. I cut myself off from God by doing this. This is wrong. I must stop.
  2. There is no God. All those rules I was taught were claptrap. It’s all here and now. Nothing exists but what I want right now and this guy loves me. Because he makes me feel physically good. I can keep doing this and keep my boyfriend because there is no God.
She chose Door #2. But it’s not working for her. Because the truth lies behind Door #1. Behind Door #1 is God’s emotional, biological, physical and psychological truths about love and the human person. When you violate the manufacturer’s instructions, and use someone like a toy, you’ll break the “toy.”

She was a treasure. He treats her like a toy. She’s miserable because on some level she knows it. She can say all she wants that she doesn’t believe in God. Saying doesn’t make her happy. She’s living a lie.

His self-serving arguments don’t change that fact.
 
Liberanosamalo said:
I encountered many atheists, even professors I would spar with in class (who granted that in a battle with Aquinas, Nietzsche would have to concede some of his points.)

They didn’t rock my world view.
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Right, but do you think if she had never met the OP but encountered many atheists, had debates with atheist professors that she would have been similarly unaffected?

Do you think that if you had dated an atheist at that point in your life that you would have lost your faith in God?

I think if all it takes for a person to switch belief system is a boyfriend with that belief system and sex, then that person’s beliefs were on rocky ground to begin with.

But I agree with you, some women will do unreasonable things to keep a man.
 
Liberanosamalo said:
  1. There is no God. All those rules I was taught were claptrap. It’s all here and now. Nothing exists but what I want right now and this guy loves me. Because he makes me feel physically good. I can keep doing this and keep my boyfriend because there is no God.
She chose Door #2. But it’s not working for her. Because the truth lies behind Door #1. Behind Door #1 is God’s emotional, biological, physical and psychological truths about love and the human person. When you violate the manufacturer’s instructions, and use someone like a toy, you’ll break the “toy.”
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I don’t know, if she truly believed in the Catholic faith to begin with, wouldn’t the fear of hell have been motivation enough for her not to have sex?

That she had sex to begin with would suggest to me that her faith wasn’t very strong, and that she didn’t “really” believe it.

How can anyone who genuinely believes that engaging in some action will cause them an eternity of torture go on and do that? I think this shows that while she may have grown up in a Catholic environment, she only viewed it half seriously.
 
If I were you I would personally do the following things…

cut out the sex

explain to her that according to Catholic teaching, the empty feeling she has now is evidence that there’s a place in our hearts that ONLY God can fill… and because of this, He is real…and if we’re onlly even WILLING to believe in Him, He will offer the grace to believe (even if we feel we’re unable to)

if she’s into reading, get her a good book like something by CS Lewis
 
*I am hanging my hat more in line with what flyingfish is saying. I dated maybe two Catholics in my entire life…a guy back in high school…and my husband. I dated a lot of non believers of Christianty, and atheists. A lot. More than I’d like to admit. 😦 But that said, I didn’t sleep with them…I didn’t give up my faith for them. Never waivered. I am weak in many areas, but not when it came to my faith. No man would cause me to leave my faith. I had a professor who bad mouthed the faith back in college–dumped that class.

For someone to dump their faith–the faith wasn’t built on solid ground to begin with. Again, the OP is not innocent in helping this young lady to leave her faith…but, she chose it. SHE CHOSE IT. That said, who we associate with, can often help or hinder us. If you hang out with atheists more often than believers, you might pick up a few of their ‘‘beliefs,’’ over time. We teach our kids this–who you associate with tells a lot about you and your values.

She chose to have a relationship with someone who doesn’t remotely believe what she does. Again, HER CHOICE. He might be very convincing at this point, because she has now lost her way…completely. But, I believe she was lost to begin with, and dating Persuader just sort of tipped things over the edge.

Just my thoughts. *
 
This one I think is on her family, if they are casting her out because she lost faith, well, that says more about the kind of people they are than the OP or her.
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Flyingfish, the terror of every parent is that their child, at a vulnerable age when they are figuring the world out for themselves and consolidating the moral codes they were raised with, will come upon bad companions who will divert them before they attain the maturity to make those truths their own.

We do not know what that family has said or done to the girl, except what her self-serving BF is telling us. If he is approaching them with anything near the arrogance and refusal to recognize what he has done that he shows here, no wonder the mother is having none of it.

He’s probably destroyed one of her reasons for living. Not being a mother, he wouldn’t understand. I doubt he can even picture his own emotions if he had a daughter and someone did this to her.

Was the girl’s faith weak? Maybe. Was she ill-catechised so that when she encountered an opposing viewpoint she didn’t have the tools to counteract his practiced arguments? Evidently. You see, the anti-God agnostic side works much harder in their arguments. Believing God exists is the default notion for much of humanity. It’s like believing oxygen exists. People accept it and don’t have to convince themselves and their friends every day that they are not ignoring reality by claiming oxygen doesn’t exist. They breathe it and it sustains them. It’s like trying to convince yourself you had no parents. The world doesn’t live like that mentally.

The atheist and the agnostic has decided to countermand millennia of accepted truth and wisdom and human practice and he must ignore a notion that even the aborigine kneeling in front of a rock in the jungle can grasp. There is Something greater than himself in the universe. Something he owes obedience and love. Something that was not him made all of this so that every atom comes together in a reasoned thought-out plan.

The agnostic maybe fears there is an intellect out there greater than his own. The atheist maybe doesn’t want to believe there are rules out there he needs to follow.

Who knows.

But they have very practiced arguments to support their stance. And they are probably challenged on it more than the average believer. So this girl was probably putty in his intellectual hands.

She lost the debate. He “won her over” to his thinking.

I will say he came to the right place to get an understanding of what to do and how to fix it. He lost points by then trying to argue with us when we presented the Catholic viewpoint to him.

It’s apparent he’s going to do just what he’s done all along… whatever he darn well wants.

But he doesn’t want anyone to think bad things about him. Not even the mother who is watching her daughter become a shell of her former self. I just find it more than coincidental that in everything this woman encountered in her volunteer work and life up till now, the only person who could invade her spiritual world and undermine it was also the one who invaded her person and took her virginity.
 
I don’t know, if she truly believed in the Catholic faith to begin with, wouldn’t the fear of hell have been motivation enough for her not to have sex?
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Shouldn’t the fear of hell keep us all from doing lots of things? Apparently it did keep her from it for a while. Persuader said so himself. It took a lot for her to finally give in. But he’s been… persuasive.

Having taken that plunge into hell, she had two choices… stay there or get right with God and stop the sinning. We see obviously in front of us a boyfriend who is not willing to do that. And even seeing her grief over the loss of God, does her again. And tells us about it!

To keep him, she must continue having sex. She has chosen the boyfriend she can see over the God she cannot. She chose to stay in the rut of sin. The guilt is eating at her though. Guilt… that healthy painful emotion that tells us when we are hurting someone else. Guilt is good. The scariest people I know are those who have no guilt.

It is the source of her depression probably. She has let her family down, she has defied her faith. Boyfriend’s solution is to undress her and do it again, and then find a shrink who hopefully will tell her all that guilt is unnecessary and she should keep doing what she’s doing.

How strong was her faith? Not strong enough for her to choose it over BF. Would he have had the same intellectual hold over her if he hadn’t started having sex with her? We will never know. All I know is he had more influence than a teacher or professor or classmate who wasn’t sleeping with her would have.

Lots of college kids go off the rails and defy their faith when they get out of the house. The lucky ones get a clue and find their way back before it does them permanent damage.

This BF is an obstacle right now to her doing that. Because he still wants to have sex with her.
 
whatevergirl said:
*I am hanging my hat more in line with what flyingfish is saying. I dated maybe two Catholics in my entire life…a guy back in high school…and my husband. I dated a lot of non believers of Christianty, and atheists. A lot. More than I’d like to admit. 😦 But that said, I didn’t sleep with them…I didn’t give up my faith for them. Never waivered. I am weak in many areas, but not when it came to my faith. No man would cause me to leave my faith. I had a professor who bad mouthed the faith back in college–dumped that class.

For someone to dump their faith–the faith wasn’t built on solid ground to begin with. Again, the OP is not innocent in helping this young lady to leave her faith…but, she chose it. SHE CHOSE IT. That said, who we associate with, can often help or hinder us. If you hang out with atheists more often than believers, you might pick up a few of their ‘‘beliefs,’’ over time. We teach our kids this–who you associate with tells a lot about you and your values.

She chose to have a relationship with someone who doesn’t remotely believe what she does. Again, HER CHOICE. He might be very convincing at this point, because she has now lost her way…completely. But, I believe she was lost to begin with, and dating Persuader just sort of tipped things over the edge.

Just my thoughts. *
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I think that might really be true, Whatevergirl… I agree that a person wouldn’t lose faith unless they themselves so choose, at some point. But the way people usually lose faith is gradually. It often starts with sin… then goes into feeling far from God… then discouragement… then justifying lack of faith… etc. It happens differently to everyone I guess but I’ve noticed a pattern. And once this process starts going, it’s hard to stop. Perhaps there were several aspects to this relationship (for example, sleeping together before marriage) and in her life as well that weakened her relationship with God and it went downhill from there. As people say, the devil will use anything.

But I also think there’s something to the fact that she felt empty inside when she lost her faith. The OP said she lost that joy she had before. That means that even if she wasn’t a really devout Catholic, she still had faith that was strong enough to feel God’s presence in her life, in some way. That’s why she noticed when she lost it.
 
Liberanosamalo said:
Shouldn’t the fear of hell keep us all from doing lots of things?
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I would think so. From where I stand, if someone truly believes the Catholic teaching about hell, he should be willing to die rather than commit a mortal sin.

Someone who does things that the Church teaches are grave matter either doesn’t really believe in hell, or doesn’t really believe that the Church teaches correctly. Either way, they don’t really believe in the Catholic faith as the Church teaches it. (Assuming that they are not ignorant of the teachings.)
 
I really think that if they were not to have sex for a while, the situation would be more clear to her…it’s difficult to come back to God when there’s something standing in the way especially if the person finds it enjoyable
 
Flyingfish, it’s impossible to imagine a sane person, who really believes that life is finite anyway, would choose a passing sin over eternal damnation if they really believed it.

Saints have died rather than sin.

Not everyone is that strong. The fact you see people all around who choose grave sin indicates one of many choices:

They’ve bought into the misguided notion that hell exists, but only Stalin, Hitler and Pol Pot are there. Everyone else wasn’t “that evil.”

They’ve rationalized that what they are doing isn’t all that bad.

Their culpability is compromised either through upbringing or immaturity or emotion. (Again, falling “in love” will turn many people stupid. And they’ve mapped out the “in love” area of the brain to correspond with the “insane” area…)

Some people do things and don’t even know it’s wrong. (Many who practiced ABC had never heard it was wrong.)

Some convince themselves that “God understands.” Or they pray “Make me pure, but not just yet.” Or they think “I always have tomorrow to fix this.”

If we all saw sin for what it really was, and what it really did to a Loving Christ, we would abhor it, wouldn’t we?

In Christ’s words, many people really don’t know what they are doing.
 
Persuader said:
Hello, catholics. I hope this is the correct place for this kind of post.

I am not a catholic. In fact, I’m an atheist/agnostic, and personally I’m fine with that, and this has been managable in my relationship with my girlfriend. We have had our discussions and fights over these things, but it has been good.

Lately this have changed. I think I’ve gradually won her over to my way of thinking, but unfortunatly, she has not adopted my positive way of thinking about a life without God. It seems she has lost faith, and not only in God, but in life as well.

In the beginning, I thought it would be good that she lost her faith, but the consequenses have been terrible. I have tried to advance the positives of a life without God, but she isn’t buying it, and I am almost ready to give up on trying to make her adopt a more positive world view.

If I cannot persuade her on this point, I feel that I have destroyed her, and that our relationship will be over. Part of the reason I fell in love with her was because she was full of life. Now it seems that is completely gone, like a needle popping a balloon.

I have been thinking about trying to make her believe again, as this seem to be the only way to fix her. Maybe this is the last chance for our relationship, and maybe the last chance to make her what she used to be. But I have no idea on how to do this. Any advice on this, or some other way to fix things, would be greatly appreciated.
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Hello Persuader,
I’m wondering if you’re “really fine with that”. I know you’ll instantly dismiss my point but it sounds to me that the nihilistic view that you’re adopting is causing you to be pessimistic. I think your girlfriend is easily “persuaded” and this is a way of requesting information from us which I’m fine with but we’d only scratch the surface. Go back 2000 years and my advice is to read about the history of the church; it’s huge but very rewarding. Did you know that Western society evolved because of the Catholic faith and schools and hospitals were founded by it. It has had a rocky development mainly due to the failings of the morals who carried the mantle after St. Peter but the miraculous and unexplainable will leave you spellbounded. The mysticism and the supernaturalism of the church can only be fully appreciated by having a good knowledge of it. Go for it! No offence but a lot of your misery comes from ignorance like I was until about 2 years ago. I always had faith but the practice requires a lot more.

God bless

J
 
I’m at school studying for finals right now, so I probably shouldn’t be here discussing this. However, I do have some good news, and I do think I should explain some things you are confused about.

First of all, I want to clear up some of the impressions you have gotten of my relationship. The first time I saw my gf was about 9 months ago. I was just wandering around campus when I saw her lying on the grass with her friends. She was so beautiful with her long blond hair, and shapely body. So I approached her, and we made eye contact. It felt like being hit with a ton of bricks, and I just stood there like a mute as she smiled up at me. After gathering myself, I engaged her in conversation.

Early on I knew we had something special. It was not just this incredible physical attraction and great chemistry, we also connected intellectually and we had some common interests. After a few days, we were a couple. I was having casual sex at this point (friends with benefits), but gave it up after meeting her. Not just out of respect, but because I had no interest in them anymore.

I quickly understood she was quite religious and a catholic. I was a bit disappointed, since I knew that might mean she was not going to have sex with me. But it wasn’t really that big a problem, and I didn’t bring it up often. I made it clear I wanted to have sex with her, but that I respected her and didn’t want to push her into something she didn’t want to do.

Fast forward about 4 months. At this point we had shared a lot with each other. Emotionally, spiritually and intellectually. She had told me about her previous dating life, and how she had never felt anything with them compared with what she felt with me. It wasn’t just the physical attraction that was different. She said they had been childish and unthinking compared to me.

The frequency of our discussions about faith and spirituality increased, and I told her how I felt about my spirituality. That I didn’t believe in God, but that I did feel spiritual about my existence. I will not go into detail about this. You can read Carl Sagan to get an idea. She told me she was relieved that I found meaning in life, and that I was a spiritual person.
Shortly after, she told me she was ready to have sex. I asked if this would conflict with her religion, and she told me she didn’t think God would mind her having sex with the man she loved. She told me she was convinced God would understand the way she felt about me, and that she was sure God would see what she saw in me.

The sex was amazing, still is, and we have been having it for almost 5 months. Her mood did not deteriorate for 4 months. On the contrary, she was even more vibrant, something I really didn’t think possible as she was so full of life to begin with. Her mood has only been plummeting in the last month, and that coincided with her losing her faith. Therefore I have good reason to think that is the primary issue, although the sex could be contributing in some way. I cannot be sure yet. She made an appointment with a psychiatrist connected to the health service provided by the university, so some steps have finally been taken.

I see some of you have taken an issue with the form of contraception. The decision to go with an implant is based on the facts. It has many benefits, also including the reduced amount of hormones compared to the pill. This means that the side-effects will probably be less than with the pill. Apart from the possible depression (I doubt if the implant has anything to do with that) and small changes in menstruation, she hasn’t had any noticeable side effects. The psychiatrist will consider whether or not the implant is negatively impacting on her mood.
 
Persuader said:
I have been thinking about trying to make her believe again, as this seem to be the only way to fix her. Maybe this is the last chance for our relationship, and maybe the last chance to make her what she used to be. But I have no idea on how to do this. Any advice on this, or some other way to fix things, would be greatly appreciated.
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I agree with Liberanosamalo and everyone else about ceasing the fornication. Additionally, have you considered telling your girlfriend about this site and encouraging her to discuss her doubts? Many of the posters here are impressive apologists.
 
Persuader said:
I see some of you have taken an issue with the form of contraception. The decision to go with an implant is based on the facts. It has many benefits, also including the reduced amount of hormones compared to the pill. This means that the side-effects will probably be less than with the pill. Apart from the possible depression (I doubt if the implant has anything to do with that) and small changes in menstruation, she hasn’t had any noticeable side effects. The psychiatrist will consider whether or not the implant is negatively impacting on her mood.
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Have you considered trying non-hormonal methods? I’ve taken hormonal contraceptives in the past, and they made me feel pretty weird.
 
*When relationships are new Persuader, people are elated, joyful, etc. As time has gone on however, she is coming to the realization of her former self, that’s been lost. She probably realizes on some level, to be with you, means she can’t have God in her life, too. That makes her sad. I’m sure you’ll reply back with…’‘oh, I wouldn’t stop her from worshipping God.’’ But, **you don’t **worship Him, and she loves you, and she apparently wants to please you. She sees her beliefs as a Catholic as being offputting to you…as an obstacle, so she ‘got rid of’ the obstacle. We can talk about the cosmic connection you both have all day…but it still brings us right back to point A.

I think that it’s ironic the very thing that attracted you to her (her inner light) is the very thing that has dimmed, by giving up her faith. :o

I hope she gets the help she needs soon…and finds her way back to her TRUE self. Regardless of what happens between you and your gf, I hope that you too come to know Christ, and all He can mean in your personal life. *
 
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