Relative artistic merit---NO and Trad Rite

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paramedicgirl said:
Good point, Caesar. I wonder how the people who love the Novus Ordo would feel if those roles were reversed, and the Novus Ordo was outlawed and the TLM brought back. It’s really something to think about, isn’t it?
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I can tell you how I would think of it. If the Vatican decided that the Latin Church would be better served to have a single liturgical rite and they decided that the TLM was going to be that single rite then I would see their point, dust off my Mariam Missale get online and get an up to date calendar and head to Mass.

What other reaction could there be? I’m Catholic.
  • I would miss the NO though if that’s what you’re getting at?
 
paramedicgirl said:
Good point, Caesar. I wonder how the people who love the Novus Ordo would feel if those roles were reversed, and the Novus Ordo was outlawed and the TLM brought back. It’s really something to think about, isn’t it?
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We wouldn’t. So? Nobody here is saying that we’d like the roles reversed nor are we against the Vetus Ordo (or whatever name is your cup of tea). Why is it something to think about? This is always something brought up to devert the conversation. Think about that. Caesar wasn’t even born in 1970 so why is he so focused on the feelings of that era? It’s Mass pitting and doesn’t have anything to do anything said by the 3 Novus Ordo people who have responded so far. None of us have an axe to grind against the Vetus Ordo nor are we hampering the spreading of it. We’re simply trying to point out that some of you are indeed hampering the effort with all of this Mass pitting. It puts people off that normally wouldn’t have a problem with that Ordo or who at least wouldn’t care if it were spread which annoys the heck out of me since I’m trying to help you guys gain more of the Vetus Ordo Masses and everyone is being shot in the foot.

Our priest under the old, liberal bishop got the TLM. He didn’t do it by shooting himself in the foot. He showed people why he loved it, got an interest going and showed the bishop the interest. He didn’t demand it, put down the bishop or the Novus Ordo. In fact, he also loved the Novus Ordo in Latin with Asperges, incense, kneeling rail, etc. and never wanted to rid his Church of this. I wish people would follow his model he’s shown it to work in one of the most formally dissenting diocese in the country.
 
rtconstant said:
I can tell you how I would think of it. If the Vatican decided that the Latin Church would be better served to have a single liturgical rite and they decided that the TLM was going to be that single rite then I would see their point, dust off my Mariam Missale get online and get an up to date calendar and head to Mass.

What other reaction could there be? I’m Catholic.
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:amen: with the addition that I would miss the Novus Ordo but I’d feel lucky to have any Mass. Remember, I’ve been in a position to be unable to attend Mass for months and maybe that gives me a different perspective. I’d have taken a Vetus Ordo, Novus Ordo, Byzantine or anything that came my way. I revere, love and adore THE MASS. I prefer my Novus Ordo in Latin with chant and polyphony.
 
bear06 said:
We wouldn’t. So? Nobody here is saying that we’d like the roles reversed nor are we against the Vetus Ordo (or whatever name is your cup of tea). Why is it something to think about? This is always something brought up to devert the conversation. Think about that. Caesar wasn’t even born in 1970 so why is he so focused on the feelings of that era? It’s Mass pitting and doesn’t have anything to do anything said by the 3 Novus Ordo people who have responded so far. None of us have an axe to grind against the Vetus Ordo nor are we hampering the spreading of it. We’re simply trying to point out that some of you are indeed hampering the effort with all of this Mass pitting. It puts people off that normally wouldn’t have a problem with that Ordo or who at least wouldn’t care if it were spread which annoys the heck out of me since I’m trying to help you guys gain more of the Vetus Ordo Masses and everyone is being shot in the foot.

Our priest under the old, liberal bishop got the TLM. He didn’t do it by shooting himself in the foot. He showed people why he loved it, got an interest going and showed the bishop the interest. He didn’t demand it, put down the bishop or the Novus Ordo. In fact, he also loved the Novus Ordo in Latin with Asperges, incense, kneeling rail, etc. and never wanted to rid his Church of this. I wish people would follow his model he’s shown it to work in one of the most formally dissenting diocese in the country.
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I did not put down the Novus Ordo in my post. And just because Caesar is young, doesn’t mean he can’t have an opinion on events that transpired before his birth.

Why is it that every time someone points out the role reversal of having the Novus Ordo banned like the TLM was that it causes some to get up in arms? You know, it really could happen. After all, it happened to the Mass of the Ages.
 
bear06 said:
:amen: with the addition that I would miss the Novus Ordo but I’d feel lucky to have any Mass. Remember, I’ve been in a position to be unable to attend Mass for months and maybe that gives me a different perspective. I’d have taken a Vetus Ordo, Novus Ordo, Byzantine or anything that came my way. I revere THE MASS. I prefer my Novus Ordo in Latin with chant and polyphony.
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I’m right there with you. What I love most about the mass is that Our Lord is there. Like you I prefer the the NO and like you I like it in Latin with chants but the other rites are all awesome too. We really can’t lose in the line up you present above 😛
 
paramedicgirl said:
I did not put down the Novus Ordo in my post. And just because Caesar is young, doesn’t mean he can’t have an opinion on events that transpired before his birth.

Why is it that every time someone points out the role reversal of having the Novus Ordo banned like the TLM was that it causes some to get up in arms? You know, it really could happen. After all, it happened to the Mass of the Ages.
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I’m hardly up in arms. I just don’t see what it has to do with anything. It’s an “inorganic” development to the conversation.😉
And, I never said that you put down the Novus Ordo. You are very careful not do do that and I appreciate that. No holes in your feet or mine when I’m standing next to you.:rotfl:
 
Last Tuesday April 3, is the 38th anniversary Promulgation of Pope Paul VI’s Apostolic Constitution (the highest form of Church document) entitled Missale Romanum. This was the instrument by which Paul VI established the Novus Ordo Missae.
Did anyone celebrate it?
It’s not very long, and worthy of a read this Holy Week.
BTW:
All Traditional Posters I propose, fast from posting during Good Friday and spend that time in prayer, and reflection on how to do a better job of being a CAF Traditional Poster in the future.
It just seems that all the threads are bulking into a critique of the NOM, and next to nothing on Old Encyclicals, devotions, practices and how we live by them.

Just way too much acrimony from both sides of the Liturgical issue.
Anyway that’s my take on the Forum.​

I really don’t attend the NOM any longer so it’s just a side issue that no longer plays a part in my life either.​

For now I take leave of the Forum until I see the Threads move toward edification of the Traditional Catholic life, and why it is so worthwhile, and moves away from what one poster said, “my prayer’s better n yur prayer” hyperbole.
.
 
TNT said:
Last Tuesday April 3, is the 38th anniversary Promulgation of Pope Paul VI’s Apostolic Constitution (the highest form of Church document) entitled Missale Romanum. This was the instrument by which Paul VI established the Novus Ordo Missae.
Did anyone celebrate it?
It’s not very long, and worthy of a read this Holy Week.
BTW:
All Traditional Posters I propose, fast from posting during Good Friday and spend that time in prayer, and reflection on how to do a better job of being a CAF Traditional Poster in the future.
It just seems that all the threads are bulking into a critique of the NOM, and next to nothing on Old Encyclicals, devotions, practices and how we live by them.

Just way too much acrimony from both sides of the Liturgical issue.
Anyway that’s my take on the Forum.​

I really don’t attend the NOM any longer so it’s just a side issue that no longer plays a part in my life either.​

For now I take leave of the Forum until I see the Threads move toward edification of the Traditional Catholic life, and why it is so worthwhile, and moves away from what one poster said, “my prayer’s better n yur prayer” hyperbole.
.
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You could be the author of some of those threads you want to see. 🙂
 
rtconstant said:
I’m right there with you. What I love most about the mass is that Our Lord is there. Like you I prefer the the NO and like you I like it in Latin with chants but the other rites are all awesome too. We really can’t lose in the line up you present above 😛
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The description was a bullseye of the Anglican Use Parish. Which, BTW, is pretty much exempt from the caprice of the USCCB or liturgical Committees.
Funny how it took the Anglican Converts to show how a reverent NOM is done.
 
All Traditional Posters I propose, fast from posting during Good Friday and spend that time in prayer, and reflection on how to do a better job of being a CAF Traditional Poster in the future.
It just seems that all the threads are bulking into a critique of the NOM, and next to nothing on Old Encyclicals, devotions, practices and how we live by them.
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I think we ALL should do this. I look forward to the informational posts. I really do enjoy them and find them informative and, while I don’t consider myself a traditionalists in the sense it’s used on the forums, many of the devotions of yesteryear can still be used today. We can all benefit from these types of post. Thanks, T. Blessed Good Friday and Happy Easter.👍
 
paramedicgirl said:
I did not put down the Novus Ordo in my post. And just because Caesar is young, doesn’t mean he can’t have an opinion on events that transpired before his birth.

Why is it that every time someone points out the role reversal of having the Novus Ordo banned like the TLM was that it causes some to get up in arms? You know, it really could happen. After all, it happened to the Mass of the Ages.
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What is the point of talking about role-reversal ? While you may not have put down the Novus Ordo in your posts, other “traditionalists” here have done so and I even distinctly remember one who called it an abomination.
 
paramedicgirl said:
Good point, Caesar. I wonder how the people who love the Novus Ordo would feel if those roles were reversed, and the Novus Ordo was outlawed and the TLM brought back. It’s really something to think about, isn’t it?
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I don’t know how many times I’ve posted this, but one more: One of the reasons that I’ve always supported a more generous application of the Indult is because I’m able to empathetically think about what it would be like if the Mass I love were suddenly derrogated (and let’s face it, if the TLM wasn’t formally abrogated, it was informally abrogated for all intents and purposes). I wouldn’t like it at all, I’d grieve for the rest of my life. Mass would never be the same. I’d go to Mass, I’d pray the best I could, but I’d be struck to the heart until I died. I don’t want anyone else to feel that way, so I’ve always supported what the old Holy Father called for. I’ve no idea what my bishop is thinking, not having at least one of the parishes offer the TLM at a decent time several times a week, so as to snatch back the souls of the people who frequent the SSPX chapel. There aren’t many, but they belong with us, and he isn’t doing his duty, in my opinion. But then, on these threads, the luggage that seems to go with the TLM! I think we have to face facts: the overwhelming majority of TLM advocates who post here don’t simply want the TLM, they want the TLM TRIUMPHANT, they want the TLM standing victorious over the fallen NO, with it’s foot on the NO neck. That could have a tendency to color people’s perceptions. I would be glad to be convincingly corrected on this point. I’m not slamming anyone, I’m simply stating what I perceive to be the case. Am I wrong?

Anyway…
 
JKirkLVNV said:
I don’t know how many times I’ve posted this, but one more: One of the reasons that I’ve always supported a more generous application of the Indult is because I’m able to empathetically think about what it would be like if the Mass I love were suddenly derrogated (and let’s face it, if the TLM wasn’t formally abrogated, it was informally abrogated for all intents and purposes). I wouldn’t like it at all, I’d grieve for the rest of my life. Mass would never be the same. I’d go to Mass, I’d pray the best I could, but I’d be struck to the heart until I died. I don’t want anyone else to feel that way, so I’ve always supported what the old Holy Father called for. I’ve no idea what my bishop is thinking, not having at least one of the parishes offer the TLM at a decent time several times a week, so as to snatch back the souls of the people who frequent the SSPX chapel. There aren’t many, but they belong with us, and he isn’t doing his duty, in my opinion. But then, on these threads, the luggage that seems to go with the TLM! I think we have to face facts: the overwhelming majority of TLM advocates who post here don’t simply want the TLM, they want the TLM TRIUMPHANT, they want the TLM standing victorious over the fallen NO, with it’s foot on the NO neck. That could have a tendency to color people’s perceptions. I would be glad to be convincingly corrected on this point. I’m not slamming anyone, I’m simply stating what I perceive to be the case. Am I wrong?

Anyway…
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Yes, you’re wrong. I for one don’t care what happens to the new Mass. It’s your Mass and your problem. You clean it up, or reform it or whatever phraseology you choose to apply to it. The fact of the matter is, the new Mass was designed to be said on a table, facing the people and in the vernacular with lots of ad-libs by the presider. Period. That’s the way it was meant to be. People need to respect the inventor’s intentions and stop trying to impose pre-Conciliar rubrics on it. It’s really rather pathetic.

And don’t expect a wider availability of the old Mass to somehow jump-start the so-called reform. I doubt “Fr. Bob” and his merry band of brothers with laymen swarming the sanctuary will discover the value of reverence merely because there’s an old Latin Mass nearby.

Personally, I would be horrified if the TLM became the standard Mass of the Latin Rite at this point in history. I can imagine what the liturgical butchers would do to it. No, separate calendars, separate Masses…just the way God intended. No triumphalism here. My people and I just want to be left alone. And we’ll gladly leave you alone with your Mass.
 
Should the liturgy be a matter of comparative artistic merit? I personally don’t see any reason why it should revolve around a discussion of liturgical aesthetics, the “accidents” or “externals” as they say. If people prefer going to mass on the basis of aesthetic appearances alone, is this the proper attitude to take?

I’ve always felt that the main problem in this thread, and perhaps the entire TC forum, is that it always boils down to an attempt(subtly or directly) by TLM partisans to diminish respect for the Novus Ordo, while promoting the liturgy of their choice. Externals and accidents of the mass are confused with the substance of the mass; the abuses of the NO is misrepresented as being inherent in the NO as well, perhaps with the aim of having it derogated altogether in the future. They take an either-or attitude in this issue, reminiscent of the classic Protestant mindset of faith OR good works, Scripure OR Tradition when the right attitude is Faith AND Works, Scripture AND Tradition, TLM AND NO. This misrepresentation I believe is an unhealthy, and un-catholic attitude, highly divisive and certainly counter-productive to the interests of the Church as a whole, since the NO is a legitimate, valid liturgy of the Church and Catholics who casually bash their own liturgy, despite the canonical warnings of Trent, and even with a liturgy they personally dislike, is reprehensible at the least.

This is my take of this issue.
 
KMXV said:
Yes, you’re wrong. I for one don’t care what happens to the new Mass. It’s your Mass and your problem. You clean it up, or reform it or whatever phraseology you choose to apply to it. The fact of the matter is, the new Mass was designed to be said on a table, facing the people and in the vernacular with lots of ad-libs by the presider. Period. That’s the way it was meant to be. People need to respect the inventor’s intentions and stop trying to impose pre-Conciliar rubrics on it. It’s really rather pathetic.

And don’t expect a wider availability of the old Mass to somehow jump-start the so-called reform. I doubt “Fr. Bob” and his merry band of brothers with laymen swarming the sanctuary will discover the value of reverence merely because there’s an old Latin Mass nearby.

Personally, I would be horrified if the TLM became the standard Mass of the Latin Rite at this point in history. I can imagine what the liturgical butchers would do to it. No, separate calendars, separate Masses…just the way God intended. No triumphalism here. My people and I just want to be left alone. And we’ll gladly leave you alone with your Mass.
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We and You; Ours and Yours. You speak as though there were two separate Churches. Quite sad.

And why should you be horrified? I thought the TLM is more rigid, more immune to abuses as compared to the NO. Is this not the common aim of all traditionalists? That the TLM become the norm once again in the Latin West, if possible or at least a status equal to that of the Novus Ordo?
 
RobedWithLight said:
We and You; Ours and Yours. You speak as though there were two separate Churches. Quite sad.

And why should you be horrified? I thought the TLM is more rigid, more immune to abuses as compared to the NO. Is this not the common aim of all traditionalists? That the TLM become the norm once again in the Latin West, if possible or at least a status equal to that of the Novus Ordo?
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We are separate. Separate Masses, separate calendars, separate evertything. If you can’t see that, what can I say?

I told you why I would be horrified. Rubrics and even pleading from the Holy Father haven’t stopped presiders from butchering the new Mass. They wouldn’t stop them from butchering the old as well. I don’t have the ability to speak for all Traditionalists. Can’t tell you what their aims are. I only outlined my aims. Which are to be left alone to worship God as I see fit and the Church has allowed [edited by Moderator]
 
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