D
deb1
Guest
I don’t think that anyone has accused you of being a liar.
YOu posted an opinion and we are giving a response. If anyone has been unfair to you then I apologize.
Relativism confused as Christianity is gaining Muslims converts.
- Status
YOu posted an opinion and we are giving a response. If anyone has been unfair to you then I apologize.
E
Ella
Guest
What if that’s all the clothes she has? It’s not like they’re wearing bikinis.
He compared Pakistani Muslim behavior to Indian Muslim behavior; in his words,
Are you saying that women do not move about freely in India? Or that they can move about freely in Pakistan?
If they cannot move about freely in Pakistan, but can move about freely in India, then the OP’s theory about why Muslim men behave the way they do towards women in each country very well could be valid.
E
Ella
Guest
I haven’t called you a liar. All I’ve done is point out that:
A. Christian men are called to be chaste, too. This is in response to your saying your daughters won’t have a chance in western culture. If your sons are not chaste they won’ t have a chance, either.
B. I question whether Muslim men are chaste.
C. You only seem concerned with the chastity of women.
S
Saint_Michael
Guest
I said a handful of people called me a liar, I was pointing anyone out, there’s no need for it, if it doesn’t apply to you then just ignore it.
I am very concerned with the chasity of men, however I will not bury my head in the sand and ignore overwhelming scientific data that show men to be much more visual creatures who react to sexually stimulating dress much more so than women.
I’m not going to pretend like all the neo-feminists do that men and women are inherently the same. God make it like this, and I know it won’t be popular but it’s the truth.
- It’s men’s job to procreate, they are driven to do so, because of this being selective at times is difficult. Testosterone is a crazy hormone and drives men into a frenzy in their teens and early 20’s.
- It is the woman’s job to keep her legs closed (I apologize if that’s coarse but it gets the point across) and be selective, and to not flaunt her breasts and behind, that will excite men visually.
U
undeserving
Guest
Women burning used to be a big social problem here but the government has come down very hard on people who do this. Check the statistics on this now its just not happening any more. Indian women enjoy considerable freedom- in their movement and their clothes, no one tries to wrap them up in coverings.
W
Walking_Home
Guest
Men are not animals–it is their job—to control their hormones and keep it in their pants.
E
Ella
Guest
Agreed.
H
He_Man
Guest
Look, this is a tired theme. Who really cares how many people bastardize the faith? You apparenly live in a Luslim commune of utoipa, and others disagree with your numbers. But they are irrelevant either way.
It is the faith that makes Catholicism the truth and the light. Priest scandals, rogue Bishops, and weak catechisis do not change this. I don’t care if 100% of Muslims are more moral than 100% of all Catholics (which is NOT the case), Islam was not given to us by God Himself. Catholicism was.
Not if you want to separate people’s actions from their faith, and speak about inidividuals, fine. As long as you do not allow it to reflect on the religion itself. But you are obviously confused about where you are supposed to be religiously, and you use anecdotal evidence of individual people to support your decisions. That is the worst way, and is a cowardly way to make you feel better about the decisions you make.
Either a religion is true, or it isn’t. No one person can change that. End of story.
A
Atk_Aheeni
Guest
I called you a liar and I still think you are one. You are a muslim im not saying all muslim men sound like you but you seem to take the view of women bieng a tool that is only useful in chaste.
Why tell us Muslim women are more chaste than christian anyways? You think thats gonna change the majoritys faith because muslim women are more chaste? Im unsubscribing from this thread this is a joke.
S
Saint_Michael
Guest
Well that’s not what I said at all, whatever I’ll chalk it up to either you don’t understand what I’m saying or just playing dumb…
S
Saint_Michael
Guest
Case in pont…
O.K. guy I’m not a Muslim, but if accusing people makes you feel better be my guest you can just go on my ignore list.
M
Magicsilence
Guest
We all agree with you.
But “women in the west” do not = Christians.
The Islamic viewpoint is that secular society and Christianity are one and the same.
They clearly, are not. The Church realized a long time ago the difference between the gnostics and the pagans. Why can’t Muslims understand the difference bewteen Christians and materialists?
Peace and God Bless.
T
TheGarg
Guest
i hope you didnt come to that conclusion from my post. I only spoke out against the letter some guy wrote, that you quoted…as in what is wrong with using such s reson to give up on Jesus…
I do not think you are a Liar or a conspiriator…these thought about islam crossed my mind, back when i had women where God should have been…but now it is irrelevent…all that matters is the Way, the Truth, and the Life
W
Walking_Home
Guest
No Saint_Michael—that is what you implied. Women should keep their legs closed —since poor men cannot control themselves. The only ones that cannot control acting upon their hormonal state are the animals.
In this —I am not advocating that women go about scantily clad–and this goes for men also.
Quote=Saint_MichaelI’m not going to pretend like all the neo-feminists do that men and women are inherently the same. God make it like this, and I know it won’t be popular but it’s the truth.
- It’s men’s job to procreate, they are driven to do so, because of this being selective at times is difficult. Testosterone is a crazy hormone and drives men into a frenzy in their teens and early 20’s.
- It is the woman’s job to keep her legs closed (I apologize if that’s coarse but it gets the point across) and be selective, and to not flaunt her breasts and behind, that will excite men visually.
P
pro_universal
Guest
There’s no possible way you could have the connections to go to Pakistan from India, yet still only have one set of clothes.
I’m saying they do not move freely in India, and are frequently victims of abuse. Just look at the scandal over when an Indian star says men shouldn’t expect virgin wives, and look at what they did to the google CEO in India over a sex video made by some teens.
It’s not true. The treatment of women in Pakistan and India is very similar, which makes sense, given that the cultures are similar. One notable difference is that Pakistanis have no tradition of burning widows, but Indians do.
E
Ella
Guest
Well I didn’t say she had* one set of clothes*. I meant that saris may be the only type of clothes she wears. And I find it weird that you insist that the poster is lying about what these women experienced.
How do you know about the connections to go to Pakistan from India? Have you been to either?
I know a few Indian people, the women don’t seem to be oppressed to me. The virginity thing - cultural - also in Islam this occurs, or there wouldn’t be a popular operation in arab countries to ‘fix’ the hymen so new brides bleed on their wedding night… the sex video, need a link about that, I didn’t see that in the news.
Have you ever seen Monsoon Wedding? The women didn’t lseem to be oppressed in it. Maybe your statement is a gross generalization. You know, like the kinds you get so upset about on here - only if the subject is Muslims…
Human rights issues in third world countries are no surprise to me, but trying to say that Pakistani are more moral than Indians is, well, another red herring, Pro… either the young women were harassed or they weren’t. EIther they, or the poster, are lying, or not. But trying to argue that it’s impossible is… not working.
So back to the subject of the original poster… that Muslims are more chaste (at least the women)… I dunno about the women.
I *have *been harassed by arabic men. They are scary, frankly, when they act inappropriately, eyes undressing me, ugly comments, sexual come-ons. Ask some of your women friends, Pro, if they’ve experienced this. I’ll ask some of mine, too.
P
pro_universal
Guest
Living and studying with Indians and Pakistanis.
Yeah, the movie about an arranged marriage where a rich friend of the family was molesting one family’s daughters and getting away with it.
Pakistani and Indian culture are similar. Except that women’s rights are an explicit part of Islamic culture (however ignored that might be), and they are not a part of the Hindu culture in India. Pakistanis do not burn their widows; this used to be common practice in India, and it persists today in rural areas.
How do you know they were Arabs? And what have Arabs got to do with Pakistanis?
Just a note, if you don’t like this, you definitely should not ever visit a Catholic country like Mexico, Spain, Italy, or any of the South American states. Secular protestant nations seem to be the only ones on the planet where this isn’t the norm.
E
Ella
Guest
Um, the molestation (thanks for spoiling the plot for anyone interested in seeing it, btw) happens all of the time in the US, so it’s not a comment on Indian culture. I can attest to that personally. The perpetrator was ‘getting away with it’ until her father found out. I wouldn’t be surprised if similar things happened in the same way in a Baptist wedding. Family trying to act like nothing happened… oh why make a fuss and ruin the party… Pro that’s a human story not an Indian one.
About the arranged marriage - yep, that happens in Hindu culture. It happens in Islamic culture, too. It used to happen in Christian culture. I hope it is on the way out.
So you think I should feel about Indians the way some people on here feel about Muslims? Personally I don’t think India is a utopian place, but neither do I think Muslim women are chaste and pure angels like the OP seems to. I’m not surprised these things happen in India because they are a third world country, i.e. still have alot to go on the path from barbarianism towards civilization that we’ve discussed before.
I haven’t met anyone from any country where everyone is saintly. I don’t think women in Islam-majority countries are more chaste than Christian women, though I expect they are more chaste than western women in general, only because they are forbidden the opportunity to interact with men except their husbands and family members. I know that it’s almost a sterotype that arab men are not chaste when they are away from their families. A book suggestion: “Palace Walk”.
They have to do with the OP’s post. I am pretty sure they were Arabs. Muslim arabs. I know lots of Christian arabs, grew up with them. Even dated one. Oh well.
I also know someone who dated a Muslim arab student back in college. They were having sex, so there’s one Muslim guy who wasn’t chaste. She’s Jewish, how about that. Anyway she thought she was pregnant and he went off on her about having to get an abortion. It turned out she wasn’t pregnant, thank God.
Ask your female friends. I don’t know many women who would want to share a subway car with a bunch of arab men esp. if she’s the only woman in the car and they are the only men. I’m not saying they’d actually rape her or anything like that. But they may well put their hands on her, and they would be undressing her with their eyes and propositioning her. I think they assume that being a western woman she is willing to sleep with anyone who asks, and I’m sure the movies, Madonna, etc. have contributed to this.
I’ve been to Mexico and Italy, and I know lots of guys from South America, and never have I been treated in those countries, or by the South American guys, like those arab men acted. However tu quoque all you want, it happened and it’s inexcusable I don’t care who is doing it.
P
pro_universal
Guest
Well, that was an interesting response.
In the first place, my point was that undeserving’s post was hypocritical. He was whitewashing the abuse of women in India in order to slam Pakistan, as if Pakistan is somehow worse for women. The fact of the matter is, we know that’s not the case now. Women cannot go around in skimpy dresses in Pakistan, but they also have the right not to be burned when their husbands die. Indian women can dress skimpy, but are discriminated against and come from a culture where women are so little valued that they were and now only sometimes are immolated when their husbands die.
Your experiences with “Arabs” whom you assume were Arabs based on their looks (a strange assumption) are odd, to say the least. You don’t really know, just suspect, and at the same time, claim you never experienced this sort of thing in Mexico.
I am Mexican. If you went there and didn’t get oggled, you are either a man or invisible. This is, like molestation is shared between India and America, a problem that Catholic cultures share with Islamic ones.
In the first place, my point was that undeserving’s post was hypocritical. He was whitewashing the abuse of women in India in order to slam Pakistan, as if Pakistan is somehow worse for women. The fact of the matter is, we know that’s not the case now. Women cannot go around in skimpy dresses in Pakistan, but they also have the right not to be burned when their husbands die. Indian women can dress skimpy, but are discriminated against and come from a culture where women are so little valued that they were and now only sometimes are immolated when their husbands die.
Your experiences with “Arabs” whom you assume were Arabs based on their looks (a strange assumption) are odd, to say the least. You don’t really know, just suspect, and at the same time, claim you never experienced this sort of thing in Mexico.
I am Mexican. If you went there and didn’t get oggled, you are either a man or invisible. This is, like molestation is shared between India and America, a problem that Catholic cultures share with Islamic ones.
E
Ella
Guest
… I don’t think he was whitewashing abuse in India to slam Pakistan. I think he was telling us something that happened to his friends. I think you’re not seeing the trees for the forest, Pro.
Again, ask your friends if they’d want to be in that subway car. And nope that didn’t happen to me in Mexico. Should I feel insulted? Should I wear a bag over my head?
I HAVE had it happen in the US from Mexican (or Guatamalan, let’s say Hispanic) guys who immigrated here, either legally or not. At any rate it does happen, but that again doesn’t mean that the OP’s premise about Islamic women is true.
Yeah, I’m saying that IMHO they were Arabs. Maybe they could be Iranians… anyway it’s something many women experience.
Well there’s oggling and there’s oggling. I’ve had my butt pinched on an Italian bus back when I was 18 for instance. That’s kind of scary but nothing like having a bunch of men propositioning sex from me.
So Pro do you think Islamic women are more chaste than Christian women like the OP stated at the beginning of this thread?
Personally, I think people like to have sex, and they manage to no matter what the social strictures. I expect devout, practicing Islamic women to be chaste just as devout, practicing Christians are. I am curious as to whether Islamic men are expected to be chaste, too. Or is it ok for Islamic men to have sex before marriage?
- Status