Release of pope's comments on condoms a blunder or apologetic genius?

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You falsely claim that I did not read more. I did. I read every comment quoted by the Pope from this upcoming book. You should be more careful not to write from such animus.

I will repeat, in case you would like to disagree: The Pope’s comments on condom use by male prostitutes are both wise and humane.

If you would like to deny either the wisdom or the humanity in the Pope’s remarks, then by all means do so.
No, Pope’s comment on Male prostitutes using condoms highlighted the fact that those actions are INHUMANE but at the same time MAY get them to understand their wrong actions.

The Pope’s comments are neither humane or inhumane. It was simply pointing out that certain actions were inhumane and at the same time MAY (Speculation) lead to realize the inhumane nature of their actions.

So once again, it looks like you can’t read 👍

God Bless 🙂
 
No, Pope’s comment on Male prostitutes using condoms highlighted the fact that those actions are INHUMANE but at the same time MAY get them to understand their wrong actions.

The Pope’s comments are neither humane or inhumane. It was simply pointing out that certain actions were inhumane and at the same time MAY (Speculation) lead to realize the inhumane nature of their actions.

So once again, it looks like you can’t read 👍

God Bless 🙂
HAHAHA

nice spin

I also said that the Pope was “wise” in these remarks. Why d’ya skip that part?

(and you accuse the media) :rolleyes:
 
I can understand non-Catholics misunderstanding the Holy Father’s statement, because they don’t understand and are not educated in Catholic moral theology and theological methodology. But when Catholics get upset about this particular statement, I makes me wonder if they missed class when methods in moral theology were being taught. Let’s look at what happened here.

The pope is giving an answer to an interview question. He is a first-class theologian, giving a very academic response to a question. Therefore, the response has to be read as if one were reading an academic book on moral theology, not heard as if one were listening to the Sunday sermon. It is commonly known that Pope Benedict does not speak in common language. He actually hates doing that. He likes the academic language. He leaves it up to Cardinal Bertoni to translate for the general population.

Knowing this about him, why are Catholics surprised when he says something that goes over the heads of so many people? This is a scholar, speaking as a scholar and he is not about to change that. He does not want to do so and I don’t believe that he can do so. It’s not in his personality. He’s a very shy man who feels very uncomfortable talking to the common man in common “Catholic language”, if there is such a thing. We have to learn to take this man as he is and accept him for the person he is.

His comment is an analysis of the moral development of the person who is using the condom to prevent infection. He points out that the desire to prevent passing an infection or becoming infected is a moral desire and may be the first step in the right direction. What is that direction? Integrated sexuality, to use his terms, a more human sexuality. What does he mean by a human sexuality? A sexual code of conduct that is consistent with what God intended for human beings. What is that? Chastity. Plain and simple.

I’m surprised at the number of Catholics who cannot do this analysis. I’m not the sharpest tool in the shed. I’m sitting here with the book on my lap, reading the statement. Even I can see that he’s talking about the moral development taking place in a person who is beginning to think responsibly. The key words in his answer are “a first step” Those words immediately lead you to realize that he’s not answering the question, but he’s moved on to reflecting on the “why” a person would use a condom. He concludes, that it’s the first step on the journey toward moral behavior. Any sign of responsibility and concern for one’s well-being and the well-being of another is a step in the right direction.

The only flaw in this situation, if one can call it a flaw, is that he does not answer the question as it was put to him, but he goes off into a reflection on moral development. This is the way he thinks. He’s a scholar and he has a tendency to look at things in layers and he usually goes for the deepest layer.

This frustrates journalists, because they don’t understand what he’s doing. So, they quote what he says as they understood him, even if they have misunderstood him. In other words, they don’t understand that he’s doing a moral analysis of a behavior and finding that there is something good in there, at a deeper level. He’s fascinated by that and hopeful that that tiny moral glow may grow into a truly moral human being.

As I said, I’m not the sharpest tool in the shed and I can see what he’s doing here. It’s nothing contrary to doctrine or new. What is new is that we have never had a pope who has a real difficulty speaking in plain language. That’s a human limitation, true, but not a moral flaw or a digression from traditional moral teaching. I know that if I were left in the same room with someone like St. Bonaventure, whom I really enjoy reading, I would go home asking myself, “What did he say?” :confused: Bonaventure could not write or say anything in simple Italian. Everything he ever wrote had to be explained by the friars who followed him. Try reading his biography on St. Francis. It’s virtually incomprehensible. It’s not a biography. It’s a theological dissertation on the soul of St. Francis. That’s the same way that Pope Benedict thinks and speaks when he does not have a script written by his staff, which is the case when he has an audience or a public mass. Those are easier to understand, because someone else writes them and he then proofs them to make sure that they say what he wanted to say. An interview is him responding without the script. The answers are going to be in Ratzingerian Italian.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF 🙂
 
I’ve been advised that the German original says: “I would say if a male prostitute uses a condom, it can be a first step towards stating one is dealing with a moral issue, a first act of responsibility in again becoming aware that not everything is permitted and one can’t do whatever one wants to.” There is simply no mention of ‘individual cases that are justified.’

The interview Book is not authoritative, does not, and cannot change, definitive and infallible teaching, and no Pope or Ecumenical Council would be allowed by the Holy Spirit to contradict definitive, infallible doctrine.
 
I’ve been advised that the German original says: “I would say if a male prostitute uses a condom, it can be a first step towards stating one is dealing with a moral issue, a first act of responsibility in again becoming aware that not everything is permitted and one can’t do whatever one wants to.” There is simply no mention of ‘individual cases that are justified.’

The interview Book is not authoritative, does not, and cannot change, definitive and infallible teaching, and no Pope or Ecumenical Council would be allowed by the Holy Spirit to contradict definitive, infallible doctrine.
True.

But no Pope has even said this kind of thing before (in a public document). I, for one, commend his wisdom and humanity, and I see no reason why any Catholic feels the need to qualify or distance himself/herself from his remarks. They are rational and sympathetic.
 
True.

But no Pope has even said this kind of thing before (in a public document). I, for one, commend his wisdom and humanity, and I see no reason why any Catholic feels the need to qualify or distance himself/herself from his remarks. They are rational and sympathetic.
But we aren’t distancing ourselves from the Pope’s remarks. I’m glad you find them rational and sympathetic, because the Pope’s remarks (which one can read, in full, excerpted from the book) do not say anything ‘different’ from the Catholic teaching that has been traditionally held and is found in the Catechism.

The Pope has not said that condoms are a moral solution (in fact, he says quite clearly that their use is not moral). What he has said is that even a disordered and wrong attempt (like condom use) which is done because it is (falsely) believed to be something helpful is a step toward understanding true morality.

Suppose you have a person who is attacking and mugging people with a big old lead pipe. And then after he knocks out some poor old lady he suddenly thinks, “Oh gee, look at that poor old lady. I really hurt her and I feel bad. From now on, I’m only gonna hit people with a padded cosh. That way, they’ll only be stunned.”

And he does. He mugs people, steals their money, but only STUNS them instead of knocking them senseless.

The impulse that he developed whereby he actually thought of the hurt he did and wanted to LESSEN the hurt is a good impulse.

So, are you going to APPLAUD the guy for mugging people but only STUNNING them now?

He took a step toward understanding morality when he was sorry for inflicting bodily harm. But the step he took–only STUNNING people–wasn’t moral, was it? It wasn’t a GOOD thing to stun and rob people, was it??? He hasn’t yet made a MORAL GOOD CHOICE. The CHOICE he made was STILL WRONG. Less hurtful than a lead pipe but STILL WRONG.
 
But we aren’t distancing ourselves from the Pope’s remarks. I’m glad you find them rational and sympathetic, because the Pope’s remarks (which one can read, in full, excerpted from the book) do not say anything ‘different’ from the Catholic teaching that has been traditionally held and is found in the Catechism.

The Pope has not said that condoms are a moral solution (in fact, he says quite clearly that their use is not moral). What he has said is that even a disordered and wrong attempt (like condom use) which is done because it is (falsely) believed to be something helpful is a step toward understanding true morality.

Suppose you have a person who is attacking and mugging people with a big old lead pipe. And then after he knocks out some poor old lady he suddenly thinks, “Oh gee, look at that poor old lady. I really hurt her and I feel bad. From now on, I’m only gonna hit people with a padded cosh. That way, they’ll only be stunned.”

And he does. He mugs people, steals their money, but only STUNS them instead of knocking them senseless.

The impulse that he developed whereby he actually thought of the hurt he did and wanted to LESSEN the hurt is a good impulse.

So, are you going to APPLAUD the guy for mugging people but only STUNNING them now?

He took a step toward understanding morality when he was sorry for inflicting bodily harm. But the step he took–only STUNNING people–wasn’t moral, was it? It wasn’t a GOOD thing to stun and rob people, was it??? He hasn’t yet made a MORAL GOOD CHOICE. The CHOICE he made was STILL WRONG. Less hurtful than a lead pipe but STILL WRONG.
I don’t disagree.

I commend the Pope for publicly acknowledging the amelioration to human suffering that condom use can bring to some individuals.
 
But we aren’t distancing ourselves from the Pope’s remarks. I’m glad you find them rational and sympathetic, because the Pope’s remarks (which one can read, in full, excerpted from the book) do not say anything ‘different’ from the Catholic teaching that has been traditionally held and is found in the Catechism.

The Pope has not said that condoms are a moral solution (in fact, he says quite clearly that their use is not moral). What he has said is that even a disordered and wrong attempt (like condom use) which is done because it is (falsely) believed to be something helpful is a step toward understanding true morality.

Suppose you have a person who is attacking and mugging people with a big old lead pipe. And then after he knocks out some poor old lady he suddenly thinks, “Oh gee, look at that poor old lady. I really hurt her and I feel bad. From now on, I’m only gonna hit people with a padded cosh. That way, they’ll only be stunned.”

And he does. He mugs people, steals their money, but only STUNS them instead of knocking them senseless.

The impulse that he developed whereby he actually thought of the hurt he did and wanted to LESSEN the hurt is a good impulse.

So, are you going to APPLAUD the guy for mugging people but only STUNNING them now?

He took a step toward understanding morality when he was sorry for inflicting bodily harm. But the step he took–only STUNNING people–wasn’t moral, was it? It wasn’t a GOOD thing to stun and rob people, was it??? He hasn’t yet made a MORAL GOOD CHOICE. The CHOICE he made was STILL WRONG. Less hurtful than a lead pipe but STILL WRONG.
You did a wonderful job summing that up - I think I will use it.
 
larkin31
I commend the Pope for publicly acknowledging the amelioration to human suffering that condom use can bring to some individuals.
With Tantum ergo and joandarc2008 we are incomparably more appreciative of the fact that this Pope and all before him have affirmed the natural moral law and clearly taught the Divine Positive Law that sodomy and all sexual intercourse outside of marriage between a man and a woman is gravely sinful, and that any deliberately placed barrier to conception within marriage is gravely sinful.

Thus proclaiming from Christ “He that hears you hears Me,” and confirming that most often people make their own trouble.
 
It seems to me quite possible to be both infallible and incompetent. Certainly it is possible to be both right and a poor communicator. For example, a college professor may have an exquisite understanding of his subject, but be such a poor teacher that the whole class fails. In a similar way, something like 95% of practicing Catholics disagree with the church’s teaching on birth control. The church has been grossly incompetent in catechizing on this subject, among many others. One has to be quite careful in choosing examples, as people tend to only hear the concrete examples and miss the abstract and main points. I think the current pope, and all the popes since the second council, have been lost in abstract, post-modern theology and forgotten the core messages of the church.

Any defense of the pope can only be on what he meant to say.

Any attack can only be on what most people will hear (actually mishear).

I’m holding the pope to a higher standard. I expect the pope to get his head out of post-modern thought, stop using examples that apply to less than 2% of situations, and actually communicate something that makes sense to average people.

And if people leave the church, so be it. What difference does it make how many people attend church if they ultimately go to hell? The only difference I see is in how much money goes in the basket.
 
It seems to me quite possible to be both infallible and incompetent. Certainly it is possible to be both right and a poor communicator. For example, a college professor may have an exquisite understanding of his subject, but be such a poor teacher that the whole class fails. In a similar way, something like 95% of practicing Catholics disagree with the church’s teaching on birth control. The church has been grossly incompetent in catechizing on this subject, among many others. One has to be quite careful in choosing examples, as people tend to only hear the concrete examples and miss the abstract and main points. I think the current pope, and all the popes since the second council, have been lost in abstract, post-modern theology and forgotten the core messages of the church.

Any defense of the pope can only be on what he meant to say.

Any attack can only be on what most people will hear (actually mishear).

I’m holding the pope to a higher standard. I expect the pope to get his head out of post-modern thought, stop using examples that apply to less than 2% of situations, and actually communicate something that makes sense to average people.

And if people leave the church, so be it. What difference does it make how many people attend church if they ultimately go to hell? The only difference I see is in how much money goes in the basket.
Excuse me! But the way this reads you just referred to the Magisterium as incompetent? I never got the idea the Pope was writing for the average person - The idea I got was he was writing to those who were studying in theology, priests, etc. These people could break down for the laity - after all if you are reading something you don’t understand about Chemistry - wouldn’t you go ask a Chemist before you assume the Chemist is wrong?
 
Thus proclaiming from Christ “He that hears you hears Me,” and confirming that most often people make their own trouble.
People make their own trouble, their own morals, their own prophets, and their own gods. Humanity is wonderfully powerful and creative and at times destructive, in this sense, “divine.”
 
I have a very simple question. How many people on this thread have actually read the book?

I read it from cover to cover and am reading it again, more slowly. There is nothing in the book that is contrary to doctrine or morals. The Holy Father answers questions very honestly and puts out there concepts that have always been part of the Church’s thinking, but are rarely discussed, because the questions never came up before.

In addition, the news is that the book was given to him to proof read, before going to publication. He edited some things and gave it his approval. It says exactly what he wants the world to hear.

At one point in the book the interviewer asks him if he’s not speaking to high for the average man and woman. His answer is rather blunt. “We cannot dumb down theology.” OUCH! He makes it clear that he expects us to do the work of studying more the concepts that drive theology, not jus tthe actual theological statements made by the Church throughout her history. Each statement has a series of principles and hisotrical events that lead to them. His expectation is that the man on the street stop, listen, think and study it.

He makes it a point to mention over and over again that his job is to teach the faith, not to simplify it.

Aside from faith and morals, he also answers questions that people have been asking on such subjects such as the sexual abuse scandals, the reform of the liturgy, the SSPX, global warming, the role of science in the Church, the role of the Church in the world of politics, abortion and human sexuality and many other topics of interest.

He goes on to explain his vision for the Church and his vision of his papacy. He clears up some myths, especially myths aboiut the priest shortage or popular beliefs that people have about the papacy.

At some points he talks candidly about interesting trivia such as what he does with his time, his healthy, his daily schedule, how he felt when he was elected and why he accepted the election. He speaks about issues that are important to different countries.

He goes on, at great lengths, to defend World Youth Days and how they have influenced his faith, how his trips to different places have impacted his spiritual life. He clarifies what he said at Fatima about Fatima and lays to rest the question of future extraordinary occurrences, but the importance of Mary’s Immaculate Heart tirumphing through the conversion of sinners…

It’s just a very interesting book and he speaks very candidly. He is honest and admits mistakes that were made, but makes no apologies for them. Instead, he gives an honest answer as to why they happened. “We did this at the time, because we had this information. Had we known then what we know today, we would have done things differently.” I strongly recommend that people read it and then discuss it. It’s not expensive. You can pick it up at Barnes & Noble for about $20.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF 🙂
 
At one point in the book the interviewer asks him if he’s not speaking to high for the average man and woman. His answer is rather blunt. “We cannot dumb down theology.” OUCH! He makes it clear that he expects us to do the work of studying more the concepts that drive theology, not jus tthe actual theological statements made by the Church throughout her history. Each statement has a series of principles and hisotrical events that lead to them. His expectation is that the man on the street stop, listen, think and study it.

He makes it a point to mention over and over again that his job is to teach the faith, not to simplify it.
Brother,
#1 - there are those in more intellectually rarefied Catholic circles than typically found among the laity; they have read the book, and they have problems with it/concerns with it, because it is not intended for simply the Catholic academic inner circle. The larger world will read it. If the Pope believes that readership will be limited to those versed in Catholic theology and philosophy, he is, unfortunately, mistaken.

#2 - Catholic education/training in philosophy and theology is not what it used to be. It was once true (in Benedict’s lifetime, as a scholar) that resources and expectations for the “deep study” to which you allude were routine for a lay Catholic. The foundations for deep study were made available in their Catholic schools & continued in their Catholic colleges. That is now the exception, not the rule. I support the Pope’s intentions, but perhaps because I work in both secular & religious education, I am more aware than he is of how atypical “the concepts that drive theology” are standard fare in the modern Catholic’s education, let alone actual catechesis. He is of a different Catholic generation.

#3 - As I mentioned, non-Catholics will read the book, and undoubtedly have read the book. The fine moral distinctions will tend to merge rather than separate. This is not only my concern. It is the concern of George Weigel, the guest on last week’s The World Over Live (EWTN). He specifically raised concerns about the book itself, not only about it’s non-contextual citation and discussion by the public. Weigel feels that the moral examples in the book were too obscure and ill-chosen: i.e., the Pope had bad editing advice (or the Pope overrode advice.) And I would hardly call Weigel an intellectual lightweight.

#4 - A separate issue is that of the interface between the Vatican and secular journalism. Both George Weigel and Phil Lawlor have recently stated on EWTN TV and Radio that, to quote Weigel, “The Communications Apparatus of the Vatican is in complete disarray.” The Vatican continues to insulate itself from understanding the dynamics of how message and language are received. Weigel gave the example that the Vatican advisors were unconcerned about the *Osservatore Romano *interview, because in their view, “The world does not consider OR a serious journalistic source.” According to Weigel, that was an unbelievably poor calculation on the Vatican’s part.

Similarly, Lawlor, who has also been around quite awhile, reiterated on Kresta’s show that the Pope is lacking sufficient guidance in dealing with communication to the public, and that this is a major problem of his papacy.
 
REMINDER

ALWAYS show respect for the Magistarium.

NEVER pass judgement on the spiritual state of a member of the clergy
 
Brother,
#1 - there are those in more intellectually Catholic circles than typically found among the laity; they have read the book, and they have problems with it/concerns with it, because it is not intended for simply the Catholic academic inner circle. The larger world will read it. If the Pope believes that readership will be limited to those versed in Catholic theology and philosophy, he is, unfortunately, mistaken.
I believe that he is quite aware that the book will be read by a large circle. I got the impression that this does not concern him too much. His concern is telling the world the faith of the Church, the mind of the pope and addressing questions that people have. I don’t think that he’s closing the door for more questions. I don’t get that impression from the book.
#2 - Catholic education/training in philosophy and theology is not what it used to be. It was once true (in Benedict’s lifetime, as a scholar) that resources and expectations for the “deep study” to which you allude were routine for a lay Catholic. The foundations for deep study were made available in their Catholic schools & continued in their Catholic colleges. That is now the exception, not the rule. I support the Pope’s intentions, but perhaps because I work in both secular & religious education, I am more aware than he is of how atypical “the concepts that drive theology” are standard fare in the modern Catholic’s education, let alone actual catechesis. He is of a different Catholic generation.
I believe that he knows very well the sad state of affairs in Catholic religious education. But he points out that such a sad state of affairs does not justify dumbing down. It is the job of the people on the front lines to raise the standard of religious education.
#3 - As I mentioned, non-Catholics will read the book, and undoubtedly have read the book. The fine moral distinctions will tend to merge rather than separate. This is not only my concern. It is the concern of George Weigel, the guest on last week’s The World Over Live (EWTN). He specifically raised concerns about the book itself, not only about it’s non-contextual citation and discussion by the public. Weigel feels that the moral examples in the book were too obscure and ill-chosen: i.e., the Pope had bad editing advice (or the Pope overrode advice.) And I would hardly call Weigel an intellectual lightweight.
The point is made by both Weigel and the author in the preface and the introduction that the manuscript was given to Pope Benedict to read and he edited it himself to his liking.

Yet, Weigel’s introduction to the book praises its content, style and the pope’s answers. Where does he really stand? Why write a raving preface to a book that he cannot support?
#4 - A separate issue is that of the interface between the Vatican and secular journalism. Both George Weigel and Phil Lawlor have recently stated on EWTN TV and Radio that, to quote Weigel, “The Communications Apparatus of the Vatican is in complete disarray.” The Vatican continues to insulate itself from understanding the dynamics of how message and language are received. Weigel gave the example that the Vatican advisors were unconcerned about the *Osservatore Romano *interview, because in their view, “The world does not consider OR a serious journalistic source.” According to Weigel, that was an unbelievably poor calculation on the Vatican’s part.
Pope Benedict actually agrees with this. He mentions it.
Similarly, Lawlor, who has also been around quite awhile, reiterated on Kresta’s show that the Pope is lacking sufficient guidance in dealing with communication to the public, and that this is a major problem of his papacy.
He addresses this in the book. He says, that he only says what Christ tells him to say and how Christ tells him to say it.

As John Henry Newman would argue, in a world where we value freedom of speech, we can be very intolerant when people make use of that freedom. Actually, he was talking about conscience, but it applies here. 😃 If this is the way that His Holiness wants to present himself, his papacy, his view of the Church and of the fiath, he has a right to do so. Let’s allow the man the courtessy of expressing himself. Again, read the book, if you have not yet done so. I did not come away confused, surprised or scandalized. Everything that he said make sense when you take it in the larger context of everything that he’s ever written and said.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF 🙂
 
I believe that he is quite aware that the book will be read by a large circle. I got the impression that this does not concern him too much.
I believe you. All I’m saying is that it concerns an awful lot of educated Catholics in positions of responsiblity (especially outside of the Vatican, but probably including some in the Vatican itself). I’m just a messenger here, not a critic.
His concern is telling the world the faith of the Church, the mind of the pope and addressing questions that people have. I don’t think that he’s closing the door for more questions.
Weigel’s point, though, was that the particular examples (male prostitutes, etc.) provided in the book were, in Weigel’s point of view, poor choices for the larger moral lessons which the Pope apparently intended to communicate. I do not know how much influence Weigel had over all the details in the book, despite whatever suggestions and warnings he may have made, and however urgently he voiced those.
I believe that he knows very well the sad state of affairs in Catholic religious education. But he points out that such a sad state of affairs does not justify dumbing down. It is the job of the people on the front lines to raise the standard of religious education.
That’s fine. And I am one who tries vigorously, daily, to contribute to raising that standard, but I will tell you that I am a minority voice in education. I understand what you’re saying: The Pope is keeping to his standards and is not about to change them. Just understand (and perhaps he might want to understand, too, say guests on EWTN TV and radio) that the differences in standards have a direct impact on how well/accurately the Pope’s meaning is understood. I expect that he does want to be understood accurately, and by not just an “inner circle” but by a broader population, both Catholic and non-Catholic.
Yet, Weigel’s introduction to the book praises its content, style and the pope’s answers. Where does he really stand? Why write a raving preface to a book that he cannot support?
Good questions. Ones I cannot answer. It was just clear from the portions of The World Over program which I did see, that Weigel was very exasperated.
If this is the way that His Holiness wants to present himself, his papacy, his view of the Church and of the fiath, he has a right to do so.
Neither Lawlor nor Weigel challenges that. Their similar viewpoints are those which relate to prudential, effective communication, not the right to express oneself as one wishes. I, and those educated as well as I have been, are able to discern, sift, and make conclusions about the Pope’s statements and writings, but I (like Lawlord & Weigel) am not typical. Weigel is not surprised that the general public came away with messages whicih focused on:

-male prostitution
-female prostitution
-transsexuals
-condoms can be OK
-condoms are OK for some occupations (particularly immoral ones)
-if condomns are OK for “bad” people, why not for “good” people?

And apparently, Weigel is not even close to being alone in his concerns about communication style – by the Vatican in general, by the Papacy in particular. Again, I’m just the messenger, not an advocate/critic.
 
That’s fine. And I am one who tries vigorously, daily, to contribute to raising that standard, but I will tell you that I am a minority voice in education. I understand what you’re saying: The Pope is keeping to his standards and is not about to change them. Just understand (and perhaps he might want to understand, too, say guests on EWTN TV and radio) that the differences in standards have a direct impact on how well/accurately the Pope’s meaning is understood. I expect that he does want to be understood accurately, and by not just an “inner circle” but by a broader population, both Catholic and non-Catholic.
Personally IMO I believe that by keeping the standard high it will force those who buy the book, read the book, and realize they don’t understand the book to seek guidance on the Papal comments. The alternative would be “dumbing down” and having an uneducated group walking away thinking they understand what they do not understand. Also in seeking guidance it may encourage larger numbers to set the bar higher on adult formation and therefore set the bar higher on CCD.
 
I believe you. All I’m saying is that it concerns an awful lot of educated Catholics in positions of responsiblity (especially outside of the Vatican, but probably including some in the Vatican itself). I’m just a messenger here, not a critic.

Weigel’s point, though, was that the particular examples (male prostitutes, etc.) provided in the book were, in Weigel’s point of view, poor choices for the larger moral lessons which the Pope apparently intended to communicate. I do not know how much influence Weigel had over all the details in the book, despite whatever suggestions and warnings he may have made, and however urgently he voiced those.

That’s fine. And I am one who tries vigorously, daily, to contribute to raising that standard, but I will tell you that I am a minority voice in education. I understand what you’re saying: The Pope is keeping to his standards and is not about to change them. Just understand (and perhaps he might want to understand, too, say guests on EWTN TV and radio) that the differences in standards have a direct impact on how well/accurately the Pope’s meaning is understood. I expect that he does want to be understood accurately, and by not just an “inner circle” but by a broader population, both Catholic and non-Catholic.

Good questions. Ones I cannot answer. It was just clear from the portions of The World Over program which I did see, that Weigel was very exasperated.

Neither Lawlor nor Weigel challenges that. Their similar viewpoints are those which relate to prudential, effective communication, not the right to express oneself as one wishes. I, and those educated as well as I have been, are able to discern, sift, and make conclusions about the Pope’s statements and writings, but I (like Lawlord & Weigel) am not typical. Weigel is not surprised that the general public came away with messages whicih focused on:

-male prostitution
-female prostitution
-transsexuals
-condoms can be OK
-condoms are OK for some occupations (particularly immoral ones)
-if condomns are OK for “bad” people, why not for “good” people?

And apparently, Weigel is not even close to being alone in his concerns about communication style – by the Vatican in general, by the Papacy in particular. Again, I’m just the messenger, not an advocate/critic.
Allow me to ask a personal question. Putting Seigel and Lawlord aside for a moment, not that they are to be ignored, but just give them a time-out, did you read the book? What are your impressions?

Having come from the same school as Ratzinger (I studied at Regensburg, 1974-77) and later in Rome. I was very young, but he was one of our professors on History of Dogma. I find it easy to understand him. I did not come away with the red flags that other people are claiming. I saw it for what it is. He’s answering questions and has to keep his answers to the point and succinct. I’m also well-versed in Augustine and Bonaventure, which guide his manner of speaking and thinking. I feel that I can read what he has not said.

Maybe you have a different take on this interview.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF 🙂
 
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