Religion and Science!

[grannymh]

I believe God is entirely capable of drawing out the soul from emerging Homo sapiens through natural processes. After all, God created nature!

Interesting theory about emergence through a natural process.

However, the Catholic Church teaches that a human person is material anatomy and spiritiual soul. This means that the soul is not a natural process; rather it belongs in the supernatural realm. Therefore, God directly creates the spiritual soul by which matter becomes a living human person.

 

[rossum]

For example, to a non-Buddhist or non-Hindu (such as myself), the Buddhist and Hindu accounts of eschatology are incoherent unless one can understand how reincarnation might even be credible.

Are you the same person you were when you were born? Are you the same person you were ten years ago? Are you the same person you were yesterday morning? We don’t just get reincarnated at the end of a life. “You can never step in the same river twice, because it is not the same river and it is not the same you.”

A non-Christian would say thte same about resurrection, or “the Fall.”

What does Mark E Smith have to do with this?

rossum

 

[grannymh]

How do you define “supernatural”?

You might want to check the resources, first paragraph in post 44.

 

[grannymh]

How do you define “supernatural”?

You might want to check out the resources in first paragraph, post 44.

 

[StAnastasia]

Are you the same person you were when you were born? Are you the same person you were ten years ago? Are you the same person you were yesterday morning? We don’t just get reincarnated at the end of a life. “You can never step in the same river twice, because it is not the same river and it is not the same you.”

rossum, in this sense I agree with you!

What does Mark E Smith have to do with this?

Only a short circuit!

 

[Al_Moritz]

Interesting theory about emergence through a natural process.

However, the Catholic Church teaches that a human person is material anatomy and spiritiual soul. This means that the soul is not a natural process; rather it belongs in the supernatural realm. Therefore, God directly creates the spiritual soul by which matter becomes a living human person.

Yes, that is the point where I part ways with StAnastasia and agree with you.

 

[StAnastasia]

However, the Catholic Church teaches that a human person is material anatomy and spiritiual soul. This means that the soul is not a natural process; rather it belongs in the supernatural realm. Therefore, God directly creates the spiritual soul by which matter becomes a living human person.

This view is not at all incompatible with evolution, unless you think God is incapable of working with secondary causes.

 

[tonyrey]

Are you the same person you were when you were born? Are you the same person you were ten years ago? Are you the same person you were yesterday morning? We don’t just get reincarnated at the end of a life. “You can never step in the same river twice, because it is not the same river and it is not the same you.”

If you are not the same person you were ten years ago - or yesterday morning - you cannot be responsible for what have done prior to the present moment! Anyone who has to appear in court can quote you in their plea of not guilty… :ehh:

 

[buffalo]

So now we see complex eyes during the Cambrian. The fossil record shows abrupt appearance, complexity from the get go, stasis with limited variation.

How will this be spun?

The latest:

Dangling Eyes of Scary Ancient Sea Predator Discovered

 Compound eyes, the type of eyes seen in dragonflies and mosquitoes, are  made up of multiple individual lenses. Dragonflies, one of the few  living arthropods with similarly acute eyesight, have up to 28,000  lenses per eye, while a housefly may have 3,000. These  500-million-year-old creatures had around 16,000.
  Like pixels in a digital image, for compound eyes, more [lenses mean a clearer picture](http://www.livescience.com/16829-early-eye-evolution-crustacean.html).  Based on the structure, this animal might have had an exceptionally  clear, almost 360-degree view of the world around it, the researchers  said.

i.livescience.com/images/i/22482/original/Anomalocaris_reconstruction.jpg?1323276199

 

[tonyrey]

So now we see complex eyes during the Cambrian. The fossil record shows abrupt appearance, complexity from the get go, stasis with limited variation.

How will this be spun?

The latest:

Dangling Eyes of Scary Ancient Sea Predator Discovered

 Compound eyes, the type of eyes seen in dragonflies and mosquitoes, are  made up of multiple individual lenses. Dragonflies, one of the few  living arthropods with similarly acute eyesight, have up to 28,000  lenses per eye, while a housefly may have 3,000. These  500-million-year-old creatures had around 16,000.
  Like pixels in a digital image, for compound eyes, more [lenses mean a clearer picture](http://www.livescience.com/16829-early-eye-evolution-crustacean.html).  Based on the structure, this animal might have had an exceptionally  clear, almost 360-degree view of the world around it, the researchers  said.

http://i.livescience.com/images/i/22482/original/Anomalocaris_reconstruction.jpg?1323276199

Jesus said to them “Do you have eyes but fail to see…?” There is such a thing as wilful blindness…

 

[StAnastasia]

Jesus said to them “Do you have eyes but fail to see…?” There is such a thing as wilful blindness…

20 And God said, “Let the water teem with living creatures, and let birds fly above the earth across the vault of the sky.” 21 So God created the great creatures of the sea and every living thing with which the water teems and that moves about in it, according to their kinds, and every winged bird according to its kind. And God saw that it was good. 22 God blessed them and said, “Be fruitful and increase in number and fill the water in the seas, and let the birds increase on the earth.” 23 And there was evening, and there was morning—the fifth day.

 

[tonyrey]

20 And God said, “Let the water teem with living creatures, and let birds fly above the earth across the vault of the sky.” 21 So God created the great creatures of the sea and every living thing with which the water teems and that moves about in it, according to their kinds, and every winged bird according to its kind. And God saw that it was good. 22 God blessed them and said, “Be fruitful and increase in number and fill the water in the seas, and let the birds increase on the earth.” 23 And there was evening, and there was morning—the fifth day.

No matter how those words are interpreted they should be enough to fill us with awe, humility and gratitude…

 

[StAnastasia]

No matter how those words are interpreted they should be enough to fill us with awe, humility and gratitude…

Wow – buffalo and granny and I can all get our proposals together for this International Conference on Creationism:

High quality papers for the Seventh International Conference on Creationism (ICC), August 4-7, 2013, Pittsburgh, PA are now invited for submission. In continuation of the Sixth ICC, the theme of the Seventh ICC is again Developing and Systematizing the Creation Model of Origins, making the Seventh ICC also a “working” conference.

The interested author should write a minimum 1000-2000 word Summary of his/her paper as a Microsoft Word document, categorize it according to the Area/Sub-Area classification below, and submit a copy no later than 31 January 2012 as an attached file to an email to the Editorial Board Chairman (icctechnicalreview@creationicc.org). Early submission is highly recommended. Required as part of your submission are the following:

1.1000(min)-2000(max) word summary of your intended paper
2.Identification of the Area and Sub-Area to which your paper belongs. Click here for a complete listing.
3.A list of at least 3 potential expert reviewers of your intended paper (the ICC Technical Review committee encourages the using of experts, regardless of origins position)
4.A brief list of subject reference sources
Each Summary will be evaluated by the Editorial Board Chairman in consultation with the Editors responsible for the technical review process for possible inclusion into the review process. If accepted, the author will be sent an email from the Editorial Board Chairman no later than 29 February 2012 detailing acceptance of his/her paper and the Editor to whom his/her paper is assigned, along with the Technical Review Process Overview and Procedures and Instructions to Authors documents dealing with the review process and the format of ICC papers respectively as attached files. There is no appeal procedure at the Summary stage. The author will then submit his/her paper to the designated Editor no later than 30 June 2012. The Editor will then send each paper to referees, work with the author to improve his/her paper, and have final jurisdiction over the acceptance or rejection of each such paper. Final drafts of all papers, including any revisions, are to be in the Editor’s hands no later than 28 February 2013. (These dates are firm!) The ICC recommends no more than three (3) papers are to be submitted by any single author. Exceptions should be requested in writing to the Editorial Board Chairman (dates above still hold).

Papers dealing with the age of the earth/universe must be from a young-earth perspective. Papers from an old-earth, geocentric, anti-relativity, or anti-quantum mechanics perspectives will not be considered.

 

[tonyrey]

Wow – buffalo and granny and I can all get our proposals together for this International Conference on Creationism:

High quality papers for the Seventh International Conference on Creationism (ICC), August 4-7, 2013, Pittsburgh, PA are now invited for submission. In continuation of the Sixth ICC, the theme of the Seventh ICC is again Developing and Systematizing the Creation Model of Origins, making the Seventh ICC also a “working” conference.

The interested author should write a minimum 1000-2000 word Summary of his/her paper as a Microsoft Word document, categorize it according to the Area/Sub-Area classification below, and submit a copy no later than 31 January 2012 as an attached file to an email to the Editorial Board Chairman (icctechnicalreview@creationicc.org). Early submission is highly recommended. Required as part of your submission are the following:

1.1000(min)-2000(max) word summary of your intended paper
2.Identification of the Area and Sub-Area to which your paper belongs. Click here for a complete listing.
3.A list of at least 3 potential expert reviewers of your intended paper (the ICC Technical Review committee encourages the using of experts, regardless of origins position)
4.A brief list of subject reference sources
Each Summary will be evaluated by the Editorial Board Chairman in consultation with the Editors responsible for the technical review process for possible inclusion into the review process. If accepted, the author will be sent an email from the Editorial Board Chairman no later than 29 February 2012 detailing acceptance of his/her paper and the Editor to whom his/her paper is assigned, along with the Technical Review Process Overview and Procedures and Instructions to Authors documents dealing with the review process and the format of ICC papers respectively as attached files. There is no appeal procedure at the Summary stage. The author will then submit his/her paper to the designated Editor no later than 30 June 2012. The Editor will then send each paper to referees, work with the author to improve his/her paper, and have final jurisdiction over the acceptance or rejection of each such paper. Final drafts of all papers, including any revisions, are to be in the Editor’s hands no later than 28 February 2013. (These dates are firm!) The ICC recommends no more than three (3) papers are to be submitted by any single author. Exceptions should be requested in writing to the Editorial Board Chairman (dates above still hold).

Papers dealing with the age of the earth/universe must be from a young-earth perspective. Papers from an old-earth, geocentric, anti-relativity, or anti-quantum mechanics perspectives will not be considered.

Thank God I’m not involved! :clapping:

 

[StAnastasia]

Thank God I’m not involved! :clapping:

I would go to Pittsburgh to listen in, but I’m probably public enemy # 7 or 8 for these people, and doubt I would be admitted. Still, I look forward to hearing what they have to say.

 

[grannymh]

’
No problem, Inocente. I am in the middle of the American Academy of Religion conference, and have been in meetings, sessions, dinners and receptions with many old friends and colleagues.

Would you share some of the highlights?

 

[grannymh]

I would go to Pittsburgh to listen in, but I’m probably public enemy # 7 or 8 for these people, and doubt I would be admitted. Still, I look forward to hearing what they have to say.

And I have been looking forward to you sharing your beliefs about the Fall otherwise known as Original Sin. I believe that is about the place where science and Catholicism intersect.

Of course, those, excluding yourself, who use the world’s scientists as their reference point for spiritual truth might have some trouble with this topic.

 

[PRmerger]

I don’t know what “anomalous genetic mutation” means.

Well, then, it’s curious that you would proclaim that it’s been around “for billions of years before 'fallen human nature.”.

Then you have to explain why “anomalous genetic mutation” (whatever that term means) was around on earth for billions of years before “fallen human nature” was created.

If you don’t know what, say, dinuguan is, then it would a very peculiar thing to claim, “Dinuguan, whatever it is, is something the Eastern Orthodox do at their Divine Liturgies”. :whacky:

 

[PRmerger]

I’ve googled the term, but cannot find a reference to it.

Well, this, too, is curious. This is what turned up when I googled the term:

google.com/#sclient=psy-ab&hl=en&source=hp&q=%22anomalous+genetic+mutation%22&pbx=1&oq=%22anomalous+genetic+mutation%22&aq=f&aqi=&aql=1&gs_sm=e&gs_upl=4857l10075l0l10295l32l24l2l0l0l0l477l5684l1.11.6.2.4l26l0&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.,cf.osb&fp=ee869b7db81e9425&biw=1143&bih=621

At any rate, surely you know what “anomalous” means. And you must know what “genetic mutation” is, so…

Genetic mutation is the main driver of evolution on earth, along with the process of natural selection that operates upon mutations. Every organism on earth is the product of genetic mutation, which has been operating for at least three billion years. An example would be the chain of mutations that led from anaerobic respiration to aerobic respiration around 2.4 billion years ago.

Exactly. And anomalous genetic mutation did not occur until after the Fall.

That depends on what you mean by “the Fall.”

Are you not a Catholic? Why are you feigning nescience on this? I mean exactly what the Catholic Church means by “the Fall”. It is the pathos of the human condition wrought by the sin of Adam.

If that is a human event, there was genetic mutation going on for for billions of years before “Adam” existed.

Then we are agreed.

And after Adam existed anomalous genetic mutations adumbrated the plan God had for us “in the beginning.”

Most people with Swyer syndrome live their lives as women. Chromosomally they are XY, they have breasts, vaginas, and little body hair. They are infertile (no gonads or uteri), but to all outward appearances they are female. Some get married and adopt children. **I suppose you could argue that in the life of the world to come God will restore their maleness, but they will have lived their earthly lives as females. ** I leave it up to you to decide what gender their souls are, if any gender at all.

I suppose I could argue that.

 

[PRmerger]

I don’t know what the first sins were. Perhaps it was eating fruit, perhaps not returning a stone axe, or stealing more than one’s fair share of woolly mammoth meat. Or perhaps murder, or arson, or rape.

How was it that these “first sins” that you describe could be responsible for the loss of divine grace?