Religion and Science!

[inocente]

Paul himself says the choice is up to each Christian, to follow dietary traditions or not. That is still in effect. We are not to judge those who do or do not eat fish on Friday, for example.

But in Corinthians there is no wiggle room for the son who commits incest with his mother. The difference is between what is tradition and what is basic law. We are obliged not to judge those who follow different traditions. But we are obliged to judged those who commit incest.

Have you or have you not read Corinthians?

I disagree that Paul is concerned with traditions here.

In 1 Cor 5 he isn’t writing to the wrongdoer but to those around him who have taken a nod and a wink pride in the gossip, and is reminding us that this amounts to rebellion against Christ.

In Romans 14 he is talking about division in the church, reminding us that Christ is the shepherd of one flock and we owe our allegiance to Him not to books of rules.

The first sermon I heard on Rom 14 was a bit of speculation about what was actually going on. The tale went like this. At that time the church in Rome was huddled together against repression, and they shared communal chores. Many in the church had previously believed in the Roman gods, and when it was their turn to go to market they would buy meat that had been sacrificed to those gods since it was cheap, having already served its main purpose. When newcomers found out, they were scandalized, as they had worshipped those pagan gods just a few weeks before. Paul categorizes them as those whose faith is weak but he doesn’t admonish them (weak faith leads to strong faith). Instead he admonishes everyone, producing a really neat logical argument that both sides can be right, since “Blessed is the one who does not condemn himself by what he approves. But whoever has doubts is condemned if they eat, because their eating is not from faith; and everything that does not come from faith is sin.”

 

[StAnastasia]

It’s a statue usually kept in the church, on top a wooden platform and garlanded with flowers. The combination is really heavy and is paraded around the streets during Holy Week on the shoulders of men and women in a church fraternity, in this case from the Paso Blanco.

Your church has balcony’s like my extended family’s church in the French Pyrenees. The Basque Catholics seem a little more restrained than Spanish Catholics, but during the Fete in August things get pretty wild. Sadly, few young people participate; even our cousins never come to Mass with us when we are there. Is there a vibrancy among Spanish Catholic youth?

StAnastasia

 

[tonyrey]

The only way any Christian knows any teaching of Jesus is because the Church told them that He said it.

So when I hear someone say, “Jesus wouldn’t * *because Jesus loves me” I find great irony in that paradigm. It appears that this person is convinced that “Jesus loves me” because, well, the Church told him that Jesus loves him, but, oddly, is not convinced about when it’s the same Church that told him .

The only way any Christian knows any teaching of Jesus is because the Church selected the writings which constitute the New Testament. Some Christians have never been to a church but they have discovered the truth for themselves by reading the Bible.

The fact also remains that contact with, and knowledge of, Jesus implies prayer…

 

[grannymh]

I’d describe the CCC as a set of normative bullet points for teachers, an aide memoire for those who already know the content.

May I respectfully point out that this sidesteps the issue of content.

I think it is intended as a unifying standard, and not as a primary document, since the words Second Edition imply that it has changed and may again.

In truth, the Second Edition is not a change in doctrine. It involved some changes in vocabulary. Consider my favorite book, The Little Prince. A few years back it was re-translated.

But you get my point that it is “useful reading” for laity, not obligatory commandments?

Yes, I understand your point. It is the same argument that some, not all, CAF Catholics and those who like to wear the catholic label have promoted.

I may not have the same application of “primary document” as you do. I will give my expanded definition and then you can compare it with yours.

In the hard copy of the CCC, there are 63 pages listing the primary documents used in compiling the CCC. This list gives text paragraph numbers for each time the document is used in some way, direct quote or paraphrased. In addition, footnotes also list the primary documents.

Therefore, I consider the CCC a primary document(s).

For people who are interested in the “primary documents” there is an additional book, *The Companion to the Catechism of the Catholic Church, A Compendium of Texts Referred to in the Catechism *
of the Catholic Church
ISBN 0-89870-450-2 (HB) and ISBN 0-89870-451-0 (PB)

 

[Charlemagne_II]

inocente

In Romans 14 he is talking about division in the church, reminding us that Christ is the shepherd of one flock and we owe our allegiance to Him not to books of rules.

What is the New Testament if it is not a book of rules accepted by the Catholic bishops in the 4th Century as the official and essential rulebook of Christ and his apostles?

 

[grannymh]

I’d describe the CCC as a set of normative bullet points for teachers, an aide memoire for those who already know the content.

With respect toward your worldview, I can understand why a reviewer would “describe the CCC as a set of normative bullet points for teachers, an aide memoire for those who already know the content.”

I do not intend to insult any individual; however, it seems that there has been a dumbing-down of Catholicism. Those who think that they already know the content of the CCC are missing the most eloquent descriptions of human nature.

 

[grannymh]

I think it is intended as a unifying standard, and not as a primary document, since the words Second Edition imply that it has changed and may again.

In truth, the Second Edition is not a change in doctrine. It involved some changes in vocabulary. Consider my favorite book, The Little Prince. A few years back it was re-translated.

But you get my point that it is “useful reading” for laity, not obligatory commandments?

Yes, I understand your point. It is the same argument that some, not all, CAF Catholics and those who like to wear the catholic label have promoted.

I may not have the same application of “primary document” as you do. I will give my expanded definition and then you can compare it with yours.

In the hard copy of the CCC, there are 63 pages listing the primary documents used in compiling the CCC. This list gives text paragraph numbers for each time the document is used in some way, direct quote or paraphrased. In addition, footnotes also list the primary documents.

Therefore, I consider the CCC the primary document(s).

For people who are interested in the “primary documents” there is an additional book, *The Companion to the Catechism of the Catholic Church, A Compendium of Texts Referred to in the Catechism *
of the Catholic Church
ISBN 0-89870-450-2 (HB) and ISBN 0-89870-451-0 (PB)

 

[Charlemagne_II]

inocente

How do the members of any Protestant denomination know what their denomination teaches that is different from what other denominations teach?

 

[tonyrey]

*From The Message paraphrase - Do you have any idea how silly you look, writing a life story that’s wrong from start to finish, nitpicking over commas and semicolons? - *

Jesus concludes with some of the most moving and poignant words in the Bible:

“Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and stone those sent to you, how often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were not willing. 38 Look, your house is left to you desolate. 39 For I tell you, you will not see me again until you say, ‘Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord.2"

There could be no greater contrast between His love and the evil He had just denounced - especially when we remember the horrific destruction of Jerusalem…

 

[PRmerger]

The only way any Christian knows any teaching of Jesus is because the Church selected the writings which constitute the New Testament. Some Christians have never been to a church but they have discovered the truth for themselves by reading the Bible.

Yet if they are intellectually honest, they will acknowledge that it was the CC that provided this truth for them.

It’s like my children sliding into their places at the dinner table and enjoying their meal, which was provided for them by their parents. They may not acknowledge that it’s only because of DH’s and my efforts that it appeared on the table, but if they know what’s good for them, they’re not going to assume that it magically appeared there.

However, whether they acknowledge the source (the Catholic Church) or not, they were fed by us. It’s just the intellectually honest thing to do.

The fact also remains that contact with, and knowledge of, Jesus implies prayer…

And you know this, too, because the Catholic Church told you so.

 

[tonyrey]

Yet if they are intellectually honest, they will acknowledge that it was the CC that provided this truth for them.

It’s like my children sliding into their places at the dinner table and enjoying their meal, which was provided for them by their parents. They may not acknowledge that it’s only because of DH’s and my efforts that it appeared on the table, but if they know what’s good for them, they’re not going to assume that it magically appeared there.

However, whether they acknowledge the source (the Catholic Church) or not, they were fed by us. It’s just the intellectually honest thing to do.

And you know this, too, because the Catholic Church told you so.

I have pointed out that the only way any Christian knows any teaching of Jesus is because the Church selected the writings which constitute the New Testament…

 

[inocente]

Your church has balcony’s like my extended family’s church in the French Pyrenees. The Basque Catholics seem a little more restrained than Spanish Catholics, but during the Fete in August things get pretty wild. Sadly, few young people participate; even our cousins never come to Mass with us when we are there. Is there a vibrancy among Spanish Catholic youth?

Yes and no. Large numbers of young people participate in Santa Semana and such, but I think a lot of them don’t go to Mass regularly. Locally, on the few occasions I’ve looked in on a Mass, young people have been noticeable by their absence.

If interested, the Centro de Investigaciones Sociológicas does a monthly nationwide poll (I think for Congress), and while the topic of many of the questions varies, there are always two on religion: are you religious and if so how often do you attend Mass/services. The answers show a downward trend. Click here for the list, then click resultados HTML for the month you want (or Cruces for a breakdown by level of education). The questions move around each month, so do a Ctrl+F text search for materia religiosa to find them. There is no breakdown by age, but if really interested you could try downloading the database to see if it gives one.

 

[inocente]

What is the New Testament if it is not a book of rules accepted by the Catholic bishops in the 4th Century as the official and essential rulebook of Christ and his apostles?

Yikes! If you’re expressing a typical Catholic view, that the NT is a rulebook, then it’s no wonder there was a Reformation!

How do the members of any Protestant denomination know what their denomination teaches that is different from what other denominations teach?

I don’t call myself a Protestant and guess you’d know just as well as me. I can tell you that Pentecostals party big-time if that’s any help.

 

[inocente]

There could be no greater contrast between His love and the evil He had just denounced - especially when we remember the horrific destruction of Jerusalem…

Yes, and “you will not see me again until you say, ‘Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord.’” means many never see Him.

 

[grannymh]

Yikes! If you’re expressing a typical Catholic view, that the NT is a rulebook, then it’s no wonder there was a Reformation!

This may be typical of some Christians, but it is not typical of the Catholic Church per se.
May I gently suggest that it is time to go past individuals and look at the Catholic Church per se.

 

[PRmerger]

I have pointed out that the only way any Christian knows any teaching of Jesus is because the Church selected the writings which constitute the New Testament…

Yes. That’s exactly my argument, too.

So if someone’s going to disagree with the Church on because "Jesus wouldn’t care if I don’t believe because God is love…

well, he’s going to have to explain how it is that he believes God is love, which he knows only because the Church told him so.

 

[Charlemagne_II]

inocente

Originally Posted by inocente
Yikes! If you’re expressing a typical Catholic view, that the NT is a rulebook, then it’s no wonder there was a Reformation!

The new rulebook: John 13:34

“A new command I give you: Love one another. As I have loved you, so you must love one another.”

I don’t call myself a Protestant and guess you’d know just as well as me.

You can run but you can’t hide.

I really don’t know how you as a Baptist would know on what authority your religion exists separately from other religions. I guess it would be private interpretation of Scriptures? I mean is that your source of authority, or do you have a set of principles that distinguish Baptists from Lutherans and Presbyterians and Methodists, etc.? If so, what is the authority you refer to for that set of principles. How do you know what you as a Baptist are expected to believe so that you can legitimately call yourself a Baptist rather than a Methodist?

 

[inocente]

Yikes! If you’re expressing a typical Catholic view, that the NT is a rulebook, then it’s no wonder there was a Reformation!
grannymh;8704545:

This may be typical of some Christians, but it is not typical of the Catholic Church per se.
May I gently suggest that it is time to go past individuals and look at the Catholic Church per se.

I’m interpreting you as saying that most Catholics don’t treat the NT as a rulebook.

The problem I’ve found on CAF with looking at the Church per se is that different views emerge, and this lowly Baptist can’t tell which is authentic. OK, sometimes I’m not sure any are, sometimes that all are and the Church is rather more relaxed than often painted. For instance, I doubt that any of my hill farmer neighbors have even seen a CCC. Some still have a picture of Paul VI on the wall!

 

[inocente]

I really don’t know how you as a Baptist would know on what authority your religion exists separately from other religions. I guess it would be private interpretation of Scriptures? I mean is that your source of authority, or do you have a set of principles that distinguish Baptists from Lutherans and Presbyterians and Methodists, etc.? If so, what is the authority you refer to for that set of principles. How do you know what you as a Baptist are expected to believe so that you can legitimately call yourself a Baptist rather than a Methodist?

Have a look at the attached, it’s an outline of a book but gives a reasonable summary.

ministerscouncil.com/OnLineManual/documents/OutlineShurdensbook.pdf

 

[StAnastasia]

Yes and no. Large numbers of young people participate in Santa Semana and such, but I think a lot of them don’t go to Mass regularly. Locally, on the few occasions I’ve looked in on a Mass, young people have been noticeable by their absence.

That sounds like France. We we attend Mass in the Pyreneen hometown, the cousins are absent, and there are few teenagers in church. There is a youth movement to which some families we know belong, called “Le Chemin Neuf” (the new way or path).

If interested, the Centro de Investigaciones Sociológicas does a monthly nationwide poll (I think for Congress), and while the topic of many of the questions varies, there are always two on religion: are you religious and if so how often do you attend Mass/services. The answers show a downward trend.