Religion and Suicide

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Leela
*
I don’t agree that believers hold human life as more valuable than nonbelievers.*

Every statistical study on suicide shows that believers are significantly less likely than non-believers to do themselves in.

If the statistics go against you, do they no longer count?
 
Leela
*
I don’t agree that believers hold human life as more valuable than nonbelievers.*

Every statistical study on suicide shows that believers are significantly less likely than non-believers to do themselves in.

If the statistics go against you, do they no longer count?
I haven’t looked into any statistics, and I accept your claim that nonbelievers are more likely to commit suicide. So what?
 
Then why all the fuss and bother from (some) Christians about legalized abortion and euthanasia, what Pope John Paul II called “the culture of death”?
Nonbelievers value human life. The premise that human life is precious leads to different conclusions. The difference may be in part due to the fact that Catholics think that there is dignity in human suffering (e.g. St Teresa) while people like myself seek to minimize human suffering.

Best,
Leela
 
The point that seems to be getting missed here is that depression is a mental illness -
What you have said, is a half truth, not to mention a popular vehicle for propaganda. One can gain mental illness (chronic depression) due to ones experiences or knowledge, as well as a decline in physical health. Hence the existence of a psychologists. Otherwise depression would have been cured by pills a long time ago. Naturalism is not true.
 
Nonbelievers value human life. The premise that human life is precious leads to different conclusions. The difference may be in part due to the fact that Catholics think that there is dignity in human suffering (e.g. St Teresa) while people like myself seek to minimize human suffering.

Best,
Leela
We’re probably not going to find any common ground here (that happens sometimes), but can one be pro-choice and still claim to value human life?
 
Leela

*I haven’t looked into any statistics, and I accept your claim that nonbelievers are more likely to commit suicide. So what? *

So what to your so what! :rolleyes:
 
We’re probably not going to find any common ground here (that happens sometimes), but can one be pro-choice and still claim to value human life?
Only in error. You can mistakenly believe that you are not destroying a person by having an abortion, due to poor reasoning. Therefore one can be ignorant of the evils of abortion and at the same time believe themselves to be valuing people.
 
Leela

*I haven’t looked into any statistics, and I accept your claim that nonbelievers are more likely to commit suicide. So what? *

So what to your so what! :rolleyes:
No, really. What is he point of claiming that religious people have lower incidence of suicide? We already know that placebos are statistically efficacious. Such statistics are completely irelevant to the question of whether any particular religion has it right.
 
Catholics think that there is dignity in human suffering (e.g. St Teresa) while people like myself seek to minimize human suffering.

There* is* dignity in human suffering. Everyone in the process of dying should be treated with respect and made as comfortable as possible, and not treated as something that has to be disposed of as soon as convenient. Christ admonished us to visit the sick, but not for the purpose of torturing them on their way out.

How else can you explain all the Catholic hospitals throughout the world. Do you think they are torture chambers? Well, they certainly don’t rip babies from their mother’s womb.
 
there isn’t a problem with the sampling, the sample size seems more than reasonable for the given the probable group size. after all, how many suicidal depressives do you think there are at any one time?
Have you ever visited the infirmeries in jails or state mental hospitals? There are a lot of suicidal people at any given time in life. God said that it is wrong to knowingly do wrong by others or one’s self. When people contemplate suicide they do so with no forethought of the outcome. Usually a persons grief is such that they act impulsively in their time of need. Biophysical chemical imbalances of neurotransmitters in the brain can cause halucinations, nightmares and an unrelieveable feeling of grief and hopelessness. To have no hope is to be an empty shell of theperson you were.

This I understand. I was institutionalized for a year in a hospital for mental illness. In the records from the hospital it had been stated that i attempted to commit suicide. I was in so much pain physically, mentally and spiritually that I despaired but for one moment, acted in haste in my hopelessness and took an overdose of insulin.

It wasn’t until 23 years later that the source of my bodily pains were discovered…Medical reasons existed for my pain and sorrow. Endometriosis, thyroid, and chemical imbalances of brain chemicals that stabilize thought, reasoning, and sanity.

Since they have been discovered,and treated, I am a whole person once more, and I sing God’s praises for every breath Itake, every move I make, and the fact that I did not die when I lost hope and commited an ultimate sin of disobedience toward God my Father Almigty.

I have vowed to do or endure whatever it takes to be reunited with Him on the last day in judgement when it comes.

Religion is God’s way of making whole that which was broken. Mended so that it never fragments into pieces and disappears. God’s love is forever.

Mary1173:)
 
Have you ever visited the infirmeries in jails or state mental hospitals? There are a lot of suicidal people at any given time in life. God said that it is wrong to knowingly do wrong by others or one’s self. When people contemplate suicide they do so with no forethought of the outcome. Usually a persons grief is such that they act impulsively in their time of need. Biophysical chemical imbalances of neurotransmitters in the brain can cause halucinations, nightmares and an unrelieveable feeling of grief and hopelessness. To have no hope is to be an empty shell of theperson you were.

This I understand. I was institutionalized for a year in a hospital for mental illness. In the records from the hospital it had been stated that i attempted to commit suicide. I was in so much pain physically, mentally and spiritually that I despaired but for one moment, acted in haste in my hopelessness and took an overdose of insulin.

It wasn’t until 23 years later that the source of my bodily pains were discovered…Medical reasons existed for my pain and sorrow. Endometriosis, thyroid, and chemical imbalances of brain chemicals that stabilize thought, reasoning, and sanity.

Since they have been discovered,and treated, I am a whole person once more, and I sing God’s praises for every breath Itake, every move I make, and the fact that I did not die when I lost hope and commited an ultimate sin of disobedience toward God my Father Almigty.

I have vowed to do or endure whatever it takes to be reunited with Him on the last day in judgement when it comes.

Religion is God’s way of making whole that which was broken. Mended so that it never fragments into pieces and disappears. God’s love is forever.

Mary1173:)
It is astounding to me that after you describe your experience and your treatment that you go on to credit religion rather than people and their application of science for “making whole that which was broken.”
 
It is astounding to me that after you describe your experience and your treatment that you go on to credit religion rather than people and their application of science for “making whole that which was broken.”
Without God’s creating the people who saved my life am I able to sing His praises. God created the people who cared for me during my illness. God gave thm the wisdom to use medicine for the life sustaining purpose it was designed for again, by God].

God allowed the persons who learned their fields of science to aid in my survival.
Without God to create man, man cannot help himself, so that he may help others in the way that God teaches us to live our lives.

God makes whole that which is broken by any means available. Prayer is not the only way that God provides hope, solace and repair of the body, mind and soul.

God created all that is, there is nothing that cannot be accomplished by God.
We are all the result of God’s love for us and God’s wisdom and caring for mankind.

Unless you have attempted suicide, had a near death experience and come back from practically being dead, My heart had stopped and I was being given CPR for 2-1/4 hrs. 1:45- 4:00], and seen the vision of a man with a gold sash about his waist, eyes that were of flame, feet as that of polished brass, a garment whiter than snow, hair that illuminated the crown of his head, and when he spoke it was of peals of thunder and a thousand waterfalls…then you have no idea the absolute power and Majesty of God the Father.

The love and capacity for understanding and forgiveness is unfathomable to you, because you have not seen,therefor you refuse to believe.

Mary1173:shrug:
 
No, really. What is he point of claiming that religious people have lower incidence of suicide? We already know that placebos are statistically efficacious. Such statistics are completely irelevant to the question of whether any particular religion has it right.
Ability to know what is true, is not always relevant to knowing or identifying what is the right kind of beliefs for a productive positive healthy life and society. Some beliefs, in respect of living and creating a positive life, are more practical to accept then others. If one cannot comprehend or principally know empirically whether or not God exists, then, principally, one cannot be held to the standard of empirical knowledge in respect of promoting or choosing which thing is best to believe about the ultimate reality of things. If the human need demands that one believe in God, then one is not being unreasonable in placing ones hope in some revealed truth that cannot be known through others means. Neither is one with out reason or experience. The world looks incredibly ordered and particular. It evidently achieves various ends that seem meaningful, reasonable, and appear purposeful. More importantly, people, with personal needs, exist. That we have emotion and a sense of wrong coupled with a sense of self, personal need and comprehension, one can only wonder what truly lies at the root of such a reality; and one ought not to be scorned as stupid if they come to realize that an impersonal physical cause does not ultimately or sufficiently make sense of, or identify with, our nature as personal beings, and as a result decides that God is the most reasonable conclusion based what we know of our selves and our experiences. The nature of the personal, is completely alien to the nature of the impersonal. They are complete opposites; and so, the idea that the impersonal is the cause of the personal, that more should ultimately come from less, makes no sense.

The fact is, the metaphysical and theological concept of God does ultimately identify with us, fulfills us, gives us purpose and more importantly, makes the best sense in relation to our personal nature. And so, it is a baseless prejudice to complain that it is unreasonable to believe in God. Its the most natural thing in the world to believe in a higher power; and its up to each individual to admit to themselves that they need God in their lives, thats if they want their lives to be fulfilled and desire their existence to mean something. Or they can just resign themselves to the possible despair and the inevitable mortality of their being.

But then, what is the point of things, and what glory do we have in just being a thing? What rational reason do we have for believing that we are just things, rather then creations of a higher and personal reality filled with purpose, identity and personal fulfillment? I can think of some. Power, self glory, insecurity, social popularity and sex . In some cases, allot more these days, they have been brainwashed with the propaganda that belief in God and the following of any religion is what insane people do, or only stupid people believe it. And so people, sheep of a social hierarchy, fall in line. It seems to me that some people are shortsighted enough that they would be irrational enough to sacrifice hope. If life is just the fleeting meaningless pleasure hunt that naturalism reduces it to, then it is no wonder that people commit suicide. God represents hope for all people. How dare one attempt to ridicule, mock or take for granted a personal hope such as this? A person would not mock a sick person if they desired a cure, and believed that one was possible, and therefore lived there lives in conjunction with that belief. God is the ultimate cure for the insanity of a pointless existence. The question of God is something that people need to take more seriously, and need to be looking at in a more positive light, as it concerns their very being.

If you take your personal existence seriously, then it stands to reason that you would put your hope in God. Atheism makes no sense.

Thats all i have to say. Bye.
 
What about Zen and direct mysticism? I know this one guy that is basicly a non-theist but he claims he is more content now because he meditates thirty minutes a day. Zen is almost a non-worldview. I heard of another mystical experience of a young woman dying of cancer, and she felt something by holding an orange, part of her was in the orange, in the tree outside her window, and everything else, so she lost the fear of death because she realized her true nature, as life, was beyond death. The Buddhists call this “interbeing”.

I’ve had some mystical experiences like that. Not identical but not completely different. Mine was more about losing my identity as “me”.

I think part of it is due to brain neuroscience. Half of our brain doesn’t really believe anything, but it processes everything simultaneously (right hemisphere) as a whole, like a video card rendering an image of a 3D world. The other half of the brain conceptualizes reality and holds beliefs (the left hemisphere). People with split brains were asked if they believe in God, and the right hemisphere always answered “no”, but the left hemisphere would answer “yes”.
 
People with split brains were asked if they believe in God, and the right hemisphere always answered “no”, but the left hemisphere would answer “yes”.
Sounds like they have managed to tap in to that aspect of the brain that deals with choice and belief. But what do you mean to imply by this? Are you saying that what we believe is determined purely by biochemical influences? If this is so, then reasoning becomes void.
 
What about Zen and direct mysticism? I know this one guy that is basicly a non-theist but he claims he is more content now because he meditates thirty minutes a day. Zen is almost a non-worldview. I heard of another mystical experience of a young woman dying of cancer, and she felt something by holding an orange, part of her was in the orange, in the tree outside her window, and everything else, so she lost the fear of death because she realized her true nature, as life, was beyond death. The Buddhists call this “interbeing”.

I’ve had some mystical experiences like that. Not identical but not completely different. Mine was more about losing my identity as “me”.
I have heard of similar experiences among LSD users. :eek:
I think part of it is due to brain neuroscience. Half of our brain doesn’t really believe anything, but it processes everything simultaneously (right hemisphere) as a whole, like a video card rendering an image of a 3D world. The other half of the brain conceptualizes reality and holds beliefs (the left hemisphere). People with split brains were asked if they believe in God, and the right hemisphere always answered “no”, but the left hemisphere would answer “yes”.
That’s pseudoscientific pop-psychology. :rolleyes:
 
Leela
*
No, really. What is he point of claiming that religious people have lower incidence of suicide? We already know that placebos are statistically efficacious. Such statistics are completely irelevant to the question of whether any particular religion has it right.*

The statistics are completely relevant to whether religion is more positive than no religion. Positive atheism just can’t prove itself.
 
Probably because depressed atheists want to end their lives to alleviate their sufferings, while depressed theists believe that God would send them to a place of infinitely greater suffering if they ended their lives.
Alot of people call out to God in the hope of alleviating there meaningless suffering in this life. By having hope in a purpose and a positive end such as heaven, one is motivated toward bettering themselves and their lives in the here and now; and thus bettering their states of mind in the here and now. For some, depression stays with them till the end, but God gives them a reason to stick around.

Such things have very little to do with a fear of hell in some after-life, as such people are already suffering in their own personal hell of having no objective meaning, purpose, identity or value in so far as their existence is concerned; although the prospect of hell can sometimes play a part in conversion.
 
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