Religion and Suicide

[Daedelus76]

Sounds like they have managed to tap in to that aspect of the brain that deals with choice and belief. But what do you mean to imply by this? Are you saying that what we believe is determined purely by biochemical influences? If this is so, then reasoning becomes void.

No… I’m actually an immaterialist, subjective idealist, or something of that nature. However, I do think there are real limits to human reasoning.

I have heard of similar experiences among LSD users.

That’s pseudoscientific pop-psychology.

How do you not know that LSD doesn’t let you tap into a hidden reality? I actually was reading about a guy that became a “Jesus Freak” in the 70’s because of an acid trip and had some kind of vision. Personally, I am not into acid but if you want to dismiss the possibility of entheogenic experiences from drugs, you are comming down on the side of materialism. The same is true of dismissing meditation.

Back to the subject of suicide… my uncle’s family was/is Catholic and religion did not stop his sister from commiting suicide. He and his sister came from an alcoholic family and watched their mother drink/smoke herself to death and had a cold, alcoholic father, one of the meanest people I have ever met. Honestly, I don’t think the family did enough things to protect the sister, it especially didn’t help the house was full of guns- the husband was a gun enthusiast and wasn’t willing to part with his guns despite his wife obsessing about death.

 

[Charlemagne_II]

Back to the subject of suicide… my uncle’s family was/is Catholic and religion did not stop his sister from commiting suicide.

Yes, some Catholics have committed suicide. The question is not whether Catholics commit suicide, but the *percent of suicides *committed by people with religion as opposed to without. There is a decided difference.

 

[Leela]

Back to the subject of suicide… my uncle’s family was/is Catholic and religion did not stop his sister from commiting suicide.

Yes, some Catholics have committed suicide. The question is not whether Catholics commit suicide, but the *percent of suicides *committed by people with religion as opposed to without. There is a decided difference.

And if nonbelievers commit suicide in statistically greater numbers, what is that supposed to tell us? That religion is a comfort to many? No one disagrees with that. The real question is whether religion is true, and such statistics don’t give any credence to the claims made by religion.

 

[1holycatholic]

And if nonbelievers commit suicide in statistically greater numbers, what is that supposed to tell us? That religion is a comfort to many? No one disagrees with that. The real question is whether religion is true, and such statistics don’t give any credence to the claims made by religion.

Oh please! If you think Christianity is simply a comfort, then you don’t understand it.

“The Christian ideal has not been tried and found wanting; it has been found difficult and left untried.”

Atheism is an emotional crutch for those unable to deal with the reality of God. Christianity is difficult and atheism appears to offer an easy way out.

“I speak from experience, being strongly subject to this fear myself: I want atheism to be true and am made uneasy by the fact that some of the most intelligent and well-informed people I know are religious believers. It isn’t just that I don’t believe in God and, naturally, hope that I’m right in my belief. It’s that I hope there is no God! I don’t want there to be a God; I don’t want the universe to be like that. My guess is that this cosmic authority problem is not a rare condition and it is responsible for much of the scientism and reductionism of our time. One of the tendencies it supports is the ludicrous overuse of evolutionary biology to explain everything about life, including everything about the human mind. Darwin enabled modern secular culture to heave a great collective sigh of relief, by apparently providing a way to eliminate purpose, meaning and design as fundamental features of the world.”

It’s not credible to claim that the puerile angry rants coming from the cadre of caustic internet neo-atheists is anything other than a manifestation of despair.

 

[Awake]

Atheism is an emotional crutch for those unable to deal with the reality of God. Christianity is difficult and atheism appears to offer an easy way out.

One can make the counter-argument that Christianity is an emotional crutch for those unable to deal with the reality of death and suffering. Atheism can be difficult to accept because it postulates that our lives are essentially meaningless in the grand scheme of things.

 

[1holycatholic]

One can make the counter-argument that Christianity is an emotional crutch for those unable to deal with the reality of death and suffering. Atheism can be difficult to accept because it postulates that our lives are essentially meaningless in the grand scheme of things.

I bet you’d see higher rates of suicide in groups that held that belief. :coffeeread:

 

[Awake]

I bet you’d see higher rates of suicide in groups that held that belief. :coffeeread:

As has been stated, that has no barring on how accurate atheism or Christianity is.

 

[1holycatholic]

As has been stated, that has no barring on how accurate atheism or Christianity is.

bearing

It doesn’t make one or the other true. The existence of God can be known with certainty through human reason. It makes you wonder why anyone would substitute a warranted rational belief in God with an unwarranted irrational disbelief in God.

 

[Charlemagne_II]

It makes you wonder why anyone would substitute a warranted rational belief in God with an unwarranted irrational disbelief in God.

There you have it … the bottom line.

 

[Leela]

I bet you’d see higher rates of suicide in groups that held that belief. :coffeeread:

I bet you would find lower incidence in any behavior for which one is convinced she will burn in hell for all eternity whether or not that belief is actually true. It is the belief, whether it is true or not, that explains the behavior. Behaving as if a belief were true does not make the belief true. Are you guys really arguing that God must exist because people who believe that they will burn in hell for suicide are less likely to commit suicide?

 

[Leela]

It makes you wonder why anyone would substitute a warranted rational belief in God with an unwarranted irrational disbelief in God.

There you have it … the bottom line.

We should all wonder why anyone would substitute a warranted rational belief of any kind for any irrational unwarranted belief, but the question remains whether or not belief in God is warranted. I certainly don’t think so.

 

[MindOverMatter]

We should all wonder why anyone would substitute a warranted rational belief of any kind for any irrational unwarranted belief, but the question remains whether or not belief in God is warranted. I certainly don’t think so.

The Universe ultimately needs a cause. Only a timeless supernatural cause can explain it.

 

[Charlemagne_II]

Leela

We should all wonder why anyone would substitute a warranted rational belief of any kind for any irrational unwarranted belief, but the question remains whether or not belief in God is warranted. I certainly don’t think so.

Why is atheism rational? Hardly anybody thinks so except Richard Dawkins and his ilk.

In any case, if it is rational, why do more atheists commit suicide than believers? Wouldn’t you think a rational belief could do better by its believers than to produce more suicides than an irrational belief?

 

[Leela]

We should all wonder why anyone would substitute a warranted rational belief of any kind for any irrational unwarranted belief, but the question remains whether or not belief in God is warranted. I certainly don’t think so.

Why is atheism rational? Hardly anybody thinks so except Richard Dawkins and his ilk.

Hardly anyone thinks so? Where did you ever get that idea? Even most believers do not think that believing in God is rational. Most believers think that believing in God requires faith rather than reason. They think that faith is required precisely because they think that belief in God is not supported by reason alone. In fact, one thing that is widely agreed upon between believers and unbelievers is that a rational approach does not generally lead people to God. That may not be Catholic doctrine, but in my experience, it is what believers actually believe. If you think that belief in God can be arrived at through reason alone, you are in the minority even for Christians and probably even among Catholics.

In any case, if it is rational, why do more atheists commit suicide than believers?

That should be obvious. Even though many desperate people of all stripes face situations where they feel that suicide may be the best escape from their problems, believers believe that they will be punished through all eternity for doing it, so it would be no escape for them. The efficacy of such a belief does not say anything about its truth. People who honestly believe that they will be whipped by a hundred demons one thousand times for each day that they wear green will be less likely to wear green than people who recognize that that belief is absurd, but that is no proof of the existence of the 100 demons and their distaste for green clothes.

 

[tomarin]

Hardly anyone thinks so? Where did you ever get that idea?

Historically, it’s difficult to find a society until recently that has produced atheism as an explicit creed. I believe some of the ancient Greek philosophers were atheists and/or skeptics regarding their religion, but I’m not sure we can generalize that to all levels of Greek society. So I think it’s fair to say that theism appears to be an aspect of the human condition.

Even most believers do not think that believing in God is rational. Most believers think that believing in God requires faith rather than reason. They think that faith is required precisely because they think that belief in God is not supported by reason alone. In fact, one thing that is widely agreed upon between believers and unbelievers is that a rational approach does not generally lead people to God. That may not be Catholic doctrine, but in my experience, it is what believers actually believe. If you think that belief in God can be arrived at through reason alone, you are in the minority even for Christians and probably even among Catholics.

We have this idea of natural law, that the universe has an innate moral rationality that humans can arrive at using reason alone, without the aid of divine revelation. I agree with you that divine revelation has elements that are irrational, or more properly speaking super-rational. But that’s to be expected if you’re dealing with an infinite supernatural entity.

That should be obvious. Even though many desperate people of all stripes face situations where they feel that suicide may be the best escape from their problems, believers believe that they will be punished through all eternity for doing it, so it would be no escape for them. The efficacy of such a belief does not say anything about its truth. People who honestly believe that they will be whipped by a hundred demons one thousand times for each day that they wear green will be less likely to wear green than people who recognize that that belief is absurd, but that is no proof of the existence of the 100 demons and their distaste for green clothes.

That sounds rational. On the other hand, it implies that the rule that we should cherish our own lives and not take them is arbitrary or unfounded (like not wearing a green shirt). If that’s what you believe then I’m not sure I can agree.

 

[Leela]

Historically, it’s difficult to find a society until recently that has produced atheism as an explicit creed.

Probably because through most of history, one professing to not believe in God would be put to a horrible death.

 

[tomarin]

Probably because through most of history, one professing to not believe in God would be put to a horrible death.

I think it’s more accurate to say that questioning religious authorities or tradition could get you punished or even executed (if you obstinately refused to change your tune). But that’s not the same as saying everyone in the Middle Ages really wanted to be free-thinking atheists but weren’t allowed to. If anything, those people who were persecuted for unorthodox religious beliefs passionately believed in God, just not the way they were supposed to.

 

[1holycatholic]

Probably because through most of history, one professing to not believe in God would be put to a horrible death.

It’s ironic that Atheism, not religion, is the real force behind the mass murders of history.

 

[Charlemagne_II]

Leela,

That should be obvious. Even though many desperate people of all stripes face situations where they feel that suicide may be the best escape from their problems, believers believe that they will be punished through all eternity for doing it, so it would be no escape for them. The efficacy of such a belief does not say anything about its truth. People who honestly believe that they will be whipped by a hundred demons one thousand times for each day that they wear green will be less likely to wear green than people who recognize that that belief is absurd, but that is no proof of the existence of the 100 demons and their distaste for green clothes.

Yes, the idea of being punished for something wrong (like suicide) is fairly obvious. However, punishment for doing wrong things should not bother you, unless you believe that governments should banish police and the courts and prison systems and just give the people over to the lawbreakers. Remember, many suicides will also kill others before they kill themselves.

Suicide is particularly offensive to Christians because it is like spitting in the face of God for having given the gift of life.

But I think your main objection misses the point about why suicide really is less common among Christians than among atheists. It’s not the fear of hellfire so much as that the Christian turns to God in times of trouble and gathers strength from God just as you would gather strength from a physician to heal a physical problem.

To whom does the atheist turn? Himself? But that is the problem … thinking he can heal himself without turning to a higher power.

Ask anyone who goes to Alcoholics Anonymous.

 

[Leela]

Leela,

That should be obvious. Even though many desperate people of all stripes face situations where they feel that suicide may be the best escape from their problems, believers believe that they will be punished through all eternity for doing it, so it would be no escape for them. The efficacy of such a belief does not say anything about its truth. People who honestly believe that they will be whipped by a hundred demons one thousand times for each day that they wear green will be less likely to wear green than people who recognize that that belief is absurd, but that is no proof of the existence of the 100 demons and their distaste for green clothes.

Yes, the idea of being punished for something wrong (like suicide) is fairly obvious. However, punishment for doing wrong things should not bother you, unless you believe that governments should banish police and the courts and prison systems and just give the people over to the lawbreakers. Remember, many suicides will also kill others before they kill themselves.

Suicide is particularly offensive to Christians because it is like spitting in the face of God for having given the gift of life.

But I think your main objection misses the point about why suicide really is less common among Christians than among atheists. It’s not the fear of hellfire so much as that the Christian turns to God in times of trouble and gathers strength from God just as you would gather strength from a physician to heal a physical problem.

To whom does the atheist turn? Himself? But that is the problem … thinking he can heal himself without turning to a higher power.

Ask anyone who goes to Alcoholics Anonymous.

I do think that hellfire is a deterrent for believers that is not there for nonbelievers, but there is probably also another effect as you describe.People who believe in God may get real comfort from their beliefs in hard times. But the fact that a belief is comforting still has nothing to do with whether or not it is true. We may be seeing something like a placebo effect.

Have you investigated any further into these statistics? Do Catholics have lower suicide rates than Lutherans who have lower rates than Jews who have lower rates than pagans? Are there other statistics you’d like to exam that may shed light on which one is the one true faith? I doubt you’d be interested since you must realize that lower suicide rates do not constitute evidence that any beliefs are true. All it could be said is that certain beliefs may be useful for lower suicide rates.

Best,
Leela