Religion and the Discomfort of Biology?

[StAnastasia]

Absolutely right, qua far-out speculative counter-factual (except you should have used the subjunctive rather than the indicative mood) - and absolutely irrelevant.

Where should I have used the subjunctive?

 

[Doc_Keele]

Why do you bring up Rabbinical Tradition? This is Catholic Answers and we must present the teaching of the Church regarding human persons, not just their biology but their spiritual aspect as well.
Peace,
Ed

who is the “we”?
does it include me, and if so, why?
my stated affiliation is “Christian”

 

[Betterave]

Where should I have used the subjunctive?

“Should this august body begin…” Mind you, it already has begun, hasn’t it? Anyway, I think the ‘irrelevance’ thing is the more important point. This is a philosophy forum, you’re supposed to argue for your views, not just vent your bitterness.

 

[StAnastasia]

And so just when is that? (How about immediately after conception?)

I don’t know at what point telomeric erosion begins, or rather, when cells that have lost their genetic potential are no longer replaced by new cells. I doubt it’s at conception; it’s probably somewhere in mid-life.

 

[StAnastasia]

“Should this august body begin…” Mind you, it already has begun, hasn’t it? Anyway, I think the ‘irrelevance’ thing is the more important point. This is a philosophy forum, you’re supposed to argue for your views, not just vent your bitterness.

I’m sorry you think I’m bitter – I’m not (I have no vocation to ordination). What I’m suggesting is that it’s not just an academic question for a lot of Catholics. I have contact with a good number of ex-Catholics, and a frequently-expressed reason for their departure is Church’s failure to respond adequately to women.

 

[ricmat]

I have contact with a good number of ex-Catholics, and a frequently-expressed reason for their departure is Church’s failure to respond adequately to women.

People have departed the Church from the very beginning because of many issues. “I can’t believe that you’re saying we need to actually eat your body!” Or, I can’t believe that Christ is actually divine. Or, I can’t believe that Christ was actually fully human. Or I can’t believe in this place/process called Purgatory.

How should the church have “adequately responded” to these dissenters? No doubt, in your mind they could have kept these people as part of the flock, if only they had adequately responded.

The issue you allude to above which troubles you (and the already ex-Catholics), is one of power. Given that the desire for power is one of the 3 primary causes of temptation, I’d think it a blessing to be excluded from that source, and something of a curse to have the vocation that requires it to be carefully controlled.

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[ricmat]

I don’t know at what point telomeric erosion begins, or rather, when cells that have lost their genetic potential are no longer replaced by new cells. I doubt it’s at conception; it’s probably somewhere in mid-life.

So when does the process that causes telomeric erosion begin? Or the process that causes the process that causes telomeric erosion?

 

[edwest2]

Nah – that’s a model that no longer flies. Arguing that a woman’s place is barefoot and pregnant in the kitchen while a man’s place is leading the church is so “fifties,” Ed! “Natural biological reality” has nothing to do with leadership of the Church.

But we should probably get back to the topic of being uncomfortable with biology.

I was born in the mid-1950s. That characterization of barefoot and pregnant is entirely false. The average number of kids in my neighborhood was 2 - just 2.

Men are not women and women are not men. The attempt to manipulate factual, and actual biology is simply not possible. It is this sort of false teaching which will never be acceptable to the Church.

Peace,
Ed

 

[StAnastasia]

The issue you allude to above which troubles you (and the already ex-Catholics), is one of power. Given that the desire for power is one of the 3 primary causes of temptation, I’d think it a blessing to be excluded from that source, and something of a curse to have the vocation that requires it to be carefully controlled…

No, it’s not a matter of power, but of service. I taught a doctor of ministry course at a Protestant seminary two weeks ago. Of the ten students, four of the senior pastors were women, and the service and leadership they have offered to their own churches is amazing. It was a very ecumenical context; one of women who is a Presbyterian pastor has had a number of spiritual directors who are Catholic nuns.

 

[StAnastasia]

Men are not women and women are not men.

Of course. A man’s vocation is to fatherhood. A woman’s is to motherhood.

 

[edwest2]

I’m sorry you think I’m bitter – I’m not (I have no vocation to ordination). What I’m suggesting is that it’s not just an academic question for a lot of Catholics. I have contact with a good number of ex-Catholics, and a frequently-expressed reason for their departure is Church’s failure to respond adequately to women.

Women cannot be men. This is a biological fact, and there are spiritual aspects of the male-female relationship that are taught by the Church. The biological sciences are even clear about this.

Peace,
Ed

 

[StAnastasia]

Women cannot be men. This is a biological fact, and there are spiritual aspects of the male-female relationship that are taught by the Church. The biological sciences are even clear about this. Peace, Ed

What spiritual aspects does biology teach about?

 

[Chiral]

…I have contact with a good number of ex-Catholics, and a frequently-expressed reason for their departure is Church’s failure to respond adequately to women.

This is totally off-topic, but I passed this post and thought, “That’s odd. Many of the women-converts to Catholicism I know expressed that they were drawn, in part, by the Church’s deep reverence for femininity, and their refusal to give in to the pressures of various “feminist” movements throughout history. They viewed the Church as a mother…”

 

[ricmat]

No, it’s not a matter of power, but of service. I taught a doctor of ministry course at a Protestant seminary two weeks ago. Of the ten students, four of the senior pastors were women, and the service and leadership they have offered to their own churches is amazing. It was a very ecumenical context; one of women who is a Presbyterian pastor has had a number of spiritual directors who are Catholic nuns.

It’s a matter of power. You used these words: “What you term “God’s representatives” are old, heterosexual (for the most part), celibate males.” God’s representatives obviously implies power and authority. If service were all that’s important, there’s lots of ways to do that which are available to anyone.

To be a Catholic priest is different than being a Protestant minister. Service is important to both, but the Catholic priest has the additional role of standing in for Christ (persona Christi) at Mass to consecrate the bread and wine.

Adam was the first high priest. And throughout salvation history, only males have been priests - EVEN when all the surrounding male dominated cultures had priestesses.

It would be a travesty to have the Pope play the part of Mary in the Christmas pageant, and similarly a travesty to have even Mother Teresa stand in for Christ at Mass.

 

[kimmielittle]

This is totally off-topic, but I passed this post and thought, “That’s odd. Many of the women-converts to Catholicism I know expressed that they were drawn, in part, by the Church’s deep reverence for femininity, and their refusal to give in to the pressures of various “feminist” movements throughout history. They viewed the Church as a mother…”

 

[StAnastasia]

So when does the process that causes telomeric erosion begin? Or the process that causes the process that causes telomeric erosion?

So this is from the biologist in the office next door to me: “Human cells begin aging either as soon as they begin dividing (in other words, just after fertilization) or once they are no longer considered stem cells - unless they are germ cells. There is also evidence for telomerase activity, which protects against aging, in epidermal skin cells, follicular hair cells, and cancer cells.”

The more serious question is when it is that aging cells are not replaced in a timely enough manner to avoid breakdown of systems. That’s when we begin to go downhill

 

[ricmat]

So this is from the biologist in the office next door to me: **“Human cells begin aging either as soon as they begin dividing (in other words, just after fertilization) **or once they are no longer considered stem cells - unless they are germ cells. There is also evidence for telomerase activity, which protects against aging, in epidermal skin cells, follicular hair cells, and cancer cells.”

The more serious question is when it is that aging cells are not replaced in a timely enough manner to avoid breakdown of systems. That’s when we begin to go downhill

So I guess granny was right.

 

[StAnastasia]

So I guess granny was right.

Not necessarily. Cells aging isn’t the same as the whole person dying. It’s not accurate to say we begin dying as soon as we are born, at least not in terms of normal usage of the word “dying.”

 

[ricmat]

Not necessarily. Cells aging isn’t the same as the whole person dying. It’s not accurate to say we begin dying as soon as we are born, at least not in terms of normal usage of the word “dying.”

I think it is quite correct to think of ourselves as “dying” even if we aren’t in a hospital on oxygen, receiving the last rites. We are all on our deathbeds, so to speak, and some will just die earlier than others. The sooner we all realize that, and and take it seriously, the sooner we’ll adjust our priorities in life. We’ll turn from putting money in the Bank of America to money in the Bank of Heaven.

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[grannymh]

I think it is quite correct to think of ourselves as “dying” even if we aren’t in a hospital on oxygen, receiving the last rites. We are all on our deathbeds, so to speak, and some will just die earlier than others. The sooner we all realize that, and and take it seriously, the sooner we’ll adjust our priorities in life. We’ll turn from putting money in the Bank of America to money in the Bank of Heaven.

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Very perceptive Ricmat. Biological sciences teach that the material bodies of animals/humans are mortal at all times. That being said, I wonder why some educated persons have trouble with any usage of the word “dying.”

What makes biology uncomfortable is that the human species is beyond the materialistic concept of life. A further comment on your advice to adjust our priorities would be to print a disclaimer, like those on TV medical ads, warning those who use money that “you can’t take it with you.”