Religion and the Discomfort of Biology?

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I was answering your comment: “I’m just wondering why you single out religion.”
in post 28

Materialism is the underlying philosophy of biological sciences. [Huh? Materialism is a matter of methodology for sciences - methodological materialism logically distinct from an anti-religious philosophical materialism.] By understanding this philosophy, one finds another approach to understanding why religion would be singled out.

Relativism, which could be considered a kind of base for American humanism, utilitarianism and likewise, is often used as a figurative salve for the discomfort allegedly caused by biology or even religion.

A famous quote from Shakespeare could easily be applied to what happens when religion and biology attempt to describe the same human being.

From Hamlet’s “to be or not to be” speech: “Ay, there’s the rub;”

Blessings,
granny

The quest for knowledge is worthy of the adventures of the journey.
First, a general comment: Huh?

Second: where’s the rub? You’re analyzing TheAtheist’s probable motivation for singling out religion: it’s because he’s uncomfortable with religion as a result of his philosophical leanings??

Okay… But my point was that being uncomfortable with biology (whatever that means exactly) seems to be a human phenomenon, not a particularly ‘religious’ one.
 
So, my question is simply: Why? What is it about biology that creates such a visceral discomfort?
Catholics believe that the human being is sacred. When there is something of high value, or sacredness, there is the potential to offend against that. So, we believe that a person’s body is a “vessel of God”. Our bodies are a gift, capable of loving and worshipping God (capable of the greatest good). So, we have a responsibility to God, to respect our bodies and the bodies of other people. In that way, we protect the dignity and honor of ourselves and others.

Through religion we learn that we have a very high value, dignity, worth – and purpose. We have that because we have been created by God and we love God for that reason. So, anything that can devalue the worth of human beings can cause discomfort.

Even in non-religious terms, just about anybody can recognize that “privacy” has a certain kind of sacred aspect. Certainly, the respect we give to the dead - honoring their memory is another example of sacredness.

Biology has the potential of violating the sacred quality of human life. Certain experiments, for example, on the mentally handicapped – while possibly useful for biology, would be considered unethical.
 
First, a general comment: Huh?

Second: where’s the rub? You’re analyzing TheAtheist’s probable motivation for singling out religion: it’s because he’s uncomfortable with religion as a result of his philosophical leanings??

Okay… But my point was that being uncomfortable with biology (whatever that means exactly) seems to be a human phenomenon, not a particularly ‘religious’ one.
Guess what? There are educated people who consider the human species religious by nature. The “rub” will always be between a materialistic philosophy and a spiritual philosophy.

By all means, the realm of science is that of the material and physical world. But that does not automatically eliminate the immaterial or spiritual realm from inquiry as if it were non-existent. Ah, one says. The immaterial cannot be put under a natural science microscope. True. But that does not exclude the reality of spiritual existence which can be known by the tools of reason, self reflection, logical evaluation, and analytical thought.

While I loved philosophy, I never spent much time in the “ivory tower” debating how many angels can dance on the head of a pin. So I really don’t go deep into these kind of threads. Nonetheless, I find it interesting to throw in an odd thought or two especially when religion and biology are in the mix.😉

Blessings,
granny

Human life is meant for eternal life.
 
First, a general comment: Huh?

Second: where’s the rub? You’re analyzing TheAtheist’s probable motivation for singling out religion: it’s because he’s uncomfortable with religion as a result of his philosophical leanings??

Okay… But my point was that being uncomfortable with biology (whatever that means exactly) seems to be a human phenomenon, not a particularly ‘religious’ one.
Guess what? There are educated people who consider the human species religious by nature. The “rub” will always be between a materialistic philosophy and a spiritual philosophy.

By all means, the realm of science is that of the material and physical world. But that does not automatically eliminate the immaterial or spiritual realm from inquiry as if it were non-existent. Ah, one says. The immaterial cannot be put under a natural science microscope. True. But that does not exclude the reality of spiritual existence which can be known by the tools of reason, self reflection, logical evaluation, and analytical thought.

While I loved philosophy, I never spent much time in the “ivory tower” debating how many angels can dance on the head of a pin. So I really don’t go deep into these kind of threads. Nonetheless, I find it interesting to throw in an odd thought or two especially when religion and biology are in the mix.😉

Blessings,
granny

Human life is meant for eternal life.
 
Guess what? There are educated people who consider the human species religious by nature. The “rub” will always be between a materialistic philosophy and a spiritual philosophy.

By all means, the realm of science is that of the material and physical world. But that does not automatically eliminate the immaterial or spiritual realm from inquiry as if it were non-existent. Ah, one says. The immaterial cannot be put under a natural science microscope. True. But that does not exclude the reality of spiritual existence which can be known by the tools of reason, self reflection, logical evaluation, and analytical thought.

While I loved philosophy, I never spent much time in the “ivory tower” debating how many angels can dance on the head of a pin. So I really don’t go deep into these kind of threads. Nonetheless, I find it interesting to throw in an odd thought or two especially when religion and biology are in the mix.😉

Blessings,
granny

Human life is meant for eternal life.
Of course, Granny, there are even many educated atheists who recognize that religion is one of the basic anthropological categories and who understand that that is not about to change any time soon. It’s just not the case, I think (I’m suggesting), that ‘religious’ people are especially sensitive (in a bad way, at least!) about biological issues. So I’m suggesting that the OP is based on a false/misleading premise.
 
The question is: where does “patching” stop and “new creation” begin? A crude example: one day you can replace the sole of a shoe, then next day your replace the upper part. Do you have the same shoe, or a new one? Gradual “tinkering” and “fixing” can and will lead to something brand new. If the gradual fixing is morally ok, then why should the full process be questionable?

Certainly.

We do that all the time. We keep on creating new “stuff”, fixing the “natural” processes, when they can and need to be fixed. Our differences come from the fact that you view humans as something fundamentally different - so much so, that human life should not be “tinkered with”. But then you contradict that stance by seeing nothing wrong with the small, gradual improvements, like eyeglasses, artifical kidneys, etc…

These are valid concerns. Your solution is: “let’s not do it”. Mine is: “someone will do it, therefore let’s educate humans to deal with it”.

Today, for sure. But aging can be viewed as a disease, the deterioration of information transmission when the cells split and are replaced, and theoretically this can be cured.

Interesting, but as you suggest, it should discussed somewhere else.
Your question sounds philisophical when it comes to where does patching stop and a new creation begin? It’s a complicated question that makes someone think. If someone were to get a leg amputated nobody would argue that the person is still the same just missing a leg. What if the person were amputated from the stomach down? Would she still be considered as human? What if the only remaining part of her was her head and consequently all the other amputated parts were replaced? Would she still be the same person or as one would call it, have a soul? How does death actually occur? What actually happens to someone to have them die? What is the difference and is a brain dead person dead even though their heart is still beating? What about someone who is in a comma? Now if you kill or hurt someone because certain parts no longer work in order to create a new and better person then that is morally wrong. My rights end when I infringe on someone eles’s rights.

There is nothing wrong with healing a human and healing certain parts of a human like improving their eyesight by wearing contacts or getting lasik surgery and by providing a new kidney when there is a need. God gave us the sciences to improve out life and to assist us and todays technology has come a long way in improving our lives and that is a good thing. It is good that we can avoid many diseases by getting vaccinated and that we can save lives and this is all a good thing and a gift from God.

Again I have to remind you that I am speaking from the perspective of a benevolent God and yes, many people will attempt to do artificially create life, clones, etc. but my question is not whether we can but whether we should and that comes from a religious, moral, and ethical perspective. I thing I have stated what kind of trouble we can get into and yes, many people are playing God but it’s not whether we can but whether we should? We have already begun to see such problems with cloning.

When it comes to aging there is no cure for it although the process might be slowed down a little bit. It doesn’t matter how long we prolong life (and life expectancy has already been prolonged today versus what it was a hundred years ago) one day we will die and that is a harsh but true reality.

So what will be our legacy when we die and what will we be rememberd for. In a way we do live forever through our children, grandchildren, and so on and I want to do my part in making this world a better place for them to live in.
 
Your question sounds philisophical when it comes to where does patching stop and a new creation begin? It’s a complicated question that makes someone think. If someone were to get a leg amputated nobody would argue that the person is still the same just missing a leg. What if the person were amputated from the stomach down? Would she still be considered as human? What if the only remaining part of her was her head and consequently all the other amputated parts were replaced? Would she still be the same person or as one would call it, have a soul? How does death actually occur? What actually happens to someone to have them die? What is the difference and is a brain dead person dead even though their heart is still beating? What about someone who is in a comma? Now if you kill or hurt someone because certain parts no longer work in order to create a new and better person then that is morally wrong. My rights end when I infringe on someone eles’s rights.

There is nothing wrong with healing a human and healing certain parts of a human like improving their eyesight by wearing contacts or getting lasik surgery and by providing a new kidney when there is a need. God gave us the sciences to improve out life and to assist us and todays technology has come a long way in improving our lives and that is a good thing. It is good that we can avoid many diseases by getting vaccinated and that we can save lives and this is all a good thing and a gift from God.

Again I have to remind you that I am speaking from the perspective of a benevolent God and yes, many people will attempt to do artificially create life, clones, etc. but my question is not whether we can but whether we should and that comes from a religious, moral, and ethical perspective. I thing I have stated what kind of trouble we can get into and yes, many people are playing God but it’s not whether we can but whether we should? We have already begun to see such problems with cloning.

When it comes to aging there is no cure for it although the process might be slowed down a little bit. It doesn’t matter how long we prolong life (and life expectancy has already been prolonged today versus what it was a hundred years ago) one day we will die and that is a harsh but true reality.

So what will be our legacy when we die and what will we be rememberd for. In a way we do live forever through our children, grandchildren, and so on and I want to do my part in making this world a better place for them to live in.
What is needed is the Catholic teaching on soul.
 
Your question sounds philisophical when it comes to where does patching stop and a new creation begin? It’s a complicated question that makes someone think. If someone were to get a leg amputated nobody would argue that the person is still the same just missing a leg. What if the person were amputated from the stomach down? Would she still be considered as human? What if the only remaining part of her was her head and consequently all the other amputated parts were replaced? Would she still be the same person or as one would call it, have a soul? How does death actually occur? What actually happens to someone to have them die? What is the difference and is a brain dead person dead even though their heart is still beating? What about someone who is in a comma? Now if you kill or hurt someone because certain parts no longer work in order to create a new and better person then that is morally wrong. My rights end when I infringe on someone eles’s rights.
Yes, we are in full agreement on this - except of course about the “soul”. Especially your last sentence, which I like to formulate as: “the right of my fist ends where your nose begins”.

The Catholic teaching (if I am not mistaken) is that the soul is “implanted” when conception occurs. Now consider maternal twins. At the beginning there is one “body” (a few cells, but still) - and of course one “soul”. Shortly afterwards, a physical split occurs and then there will be two (identical) “bodies”. What happens to the soul? Will one body be soulless? If so, which one? Will the two bodies “share” the soul? Will the “original” soul be kept by one, and brand new soul installed in the other one? Will the “original” soul “disappear” and two brand new souls installed at the time of the split? And please, don’t delude yourself that these are hard questions, best left to the Magistretium to answer. These questions show that the Catholic teaching (soul implanted at conception) is sheer nonsense, the concept of soul is meaningless.
Again I have to remind you that I am speaking from the perspective of a benevolent God and yes, many people will attempt to do artificially create life, clones, etc. but my question is not whether we can but whether we should and that comes from a religious, moral, and ethical perspective. I thing I have stated what kind of trouble we can get into and yes, many people are playing God but it’s not whether we can but whether we should? We have already begun to see such problems with cloning.
Unfortunately, when it comes God’s benevolence, we reach a fundamental difference. Of all the alleged attributes of God, the benevolence is the hardest one to swallow. If you look at the world as is, without the pink glasses of Catholicism, you will see a stark picture without divine love. The actual evidence shows indifference, if not worse.

Nevertheless, your concerns are well founded. The problems may be there, even without the religious overtones. Suppose, that the “created” adroids are treated exactly as the “natural” humans, no discrimination, no lower status. Do you still have any problems with that scenario? Disregard, if you can, the “soul”. These will be human beings, grown in a “vat”, if you will, but that is the only difference. What is wrong with it? Personally, I see nothing wrong, but you may offer a new insight, which I missed.
When it comes to aging there is no cure for it although the process might be slowed down a little bit. It doesn’t matter how long we prolong life (and life expectancy has already been prolonged today versus what it was a hundred years ago) one day we will die and that is a harsh but true reality.
We don’t know that. Aging is just a breakdown in the information transmitting process, which may or may not be reversible or curable. Biology is still in its infancy, so the “jury is still out” - and may be “out” for centuries.
 
And the previous post shows the nihilism integrated into the worldview. I heard it expressed once like this: “We live in a cold, uncaring universe.” We are just mechanism without connection to anything. Our only imperatives are: survival, reproduction (or not), performing a few adaptive behaviors and dying.

That the soul is meaningless completes the picture.

Biology cannot demonstrate any of this. If anything, it deals with living things, and it does not know why they are alive.

Peace,
Ed
 
What is needed is the Catholic teaching on soul.
The CAF instant e-mail notification is not working, plus I am having difficulty with this thread. Some of the below may have been addressed-if so–this would serve as an affirmation.

As to Catholic teaching on soul. The “when” it is implanted is not the issue. The what is what is important to this thread.

One of the main problems with trying to figure out what the soul is that a lot of us, Catholics included, are somewhat influenced by Cartesian extreme dualism. So we want to know when and how as if the soul is a unit separate from the body.

In my humble opinion, it would be far better to start our inquiry from the point of our very own human nature which is an intimate unification of spirit/matter, rational/corporeal, soul/body.

Then we need to move on to the powers of an immaterial, eternal, spiritual soul. If this is done according to Catholic teaching, it would be totally obvious why biological sciences could very well be the source of discomfort.

Blessings,
granny

Spring is a message of hope sent by God.
 
The Catholic teaching (if I am not mistaken) is that the soul is “implanted” when conception occurs.
“implanted” ?? That doesn’t sound at all like Catholic teaching.

“implanted” sounds more like Descartes’ musings which are sheer nonsense. No wonder you and a lot of CAF posters are having trouble with the meaning of soul. Maybe post 48 will help return discussion to the reality track.

Blessings,
granny

All human life is sacred from the moment of conception.
 
“implanted” ?? That doesn’t sound at all like Catholic teaching.
That is why I used the quotation marks. You can choose whichever verb you prefer, but the fact is that the “soul” and the moment of conception are assumed to go hand-in-hand. So the question I posted is still valid: what happens in the case of maternal twins?
 
And the previous post shows the nihilism integrated into the worldview. I heard it expressed once like this: “We live in a cold, uncaring universe.”
There is nothing “nihilistic” about the picture, only factual. The universe definitely does not care. Maybe you missed my point, if you look at the universe rationally, only scrutinizing the “cold, hard” facts, there is no sign of divine love or benevolence.
That the soul is meaningless completes the picture.
Why don’t you demonstrate the soul… after defining it, of course. I am all ears.
 
That is why I used the quotation marks. You can choose whichever verb you prefer, but the fact is that the “soul” and the moment of conception are assumed to go hand-in-hand. So the question I posted is still valid: what happens in the case of maternal twins?
If I am to choose any verb, then please don’t imply that you are stating Catholic teaching. Thank you for that courtesy.

As to identical twins, each is an intimate unification of spirit and matter. Fraternal twins would be the same. So there is no problem.
 
If I am to choose any verb, then please don’t imply that you are stating Catholic teaching. Thank you for that courtesy.
Are you interested in word-games? No, I did not say “any verb”, I said “any verb you prefer”, since you did not like the word: “implanted”, which was in quotation marks, to indicate that it should not be taken verbatim - though I see nothing wrong with it. I am sure you know what my post meant. If you are so inclined, I will be happy to read your evaluation of the **meaning **of the post. If you are not interested, that is fine by me, too.
 
As to identical twins, each is an intimate unification of spirit and matter. Fraternal twins would be the same. So there is no problem.
The question was, when does the “soul” get “assigned” - if that word you find appropriate. Does the immaterial “soul” get split as the splitting of the cells take place? Or it will “stick” with one? (Which one?) Or a brand new soul is created (for lack of a better word)? Does the Catholic teaching not say that the moment of conception is significant? I thought it did. A whole can of worms… and no one seems to care.
 
Are you interested in word-games? No, I did not say “any verb”, I said “any verb you prefer”, since you did not like the word: “implanted”, which was in quotation marks, to indicate that it should not be taken verbatim - though I see nothing wrong with it. I am sure you know what my post meant. If you are so inclined, I will be happy to read your evaluation of the **meaning **of the post. If you are not interested, that is fine by me, too.
We are on two different tracks.

You are coming from a Cartesian point of view and I am coming from a Catholic point of view which is sometimes called Hylomorphic or Hylemorphic principle.

For many people the concept of soul is meaningless (refer to post 46). While there are many reasons why people deny the existence of the soul, I found that on CAF, the chief reason for discarding the importance of soul is that it is spiritual. There are some posters who have a serious problem dealing with anything that is not material; therefore the spiritual soul becomes meaningless.
 
The question was, when does the “soul” get “assigned” - if that word you find appropriate. Does the immaterial “soul” get split as the splitting of the cells take place? Or it will “stick” with one? (Which one?) Or a brand new soul is created (for lack of a better word)? Does the Catholic teaching not say that the moment of conception is significant? I thought it did. A whole can of worms… and no one seems to care.
I care.

Blessings,
granny

Each person is worthy of profound respect.
 
We are on two different tracks.

You are coming from a Cartesian point of view and I am coming from a Catholic point of view which is sometimes called Hylomorphic or Hylemorphic principle.

For many people the concept of soul is meaningless (refer to post 46). While there are many reasons why people deny the existence of the soul, I found that on CAF, the chief reason for discarding the importance of soul is that it is spiritual. There are some posters who have a serious problem dealing with anything that is not material; therefore the spiritual soul becomes meaningless.
Obviously I find the concept of the “immaterial and immortal soul” unacceptable. But that is not the point, since you do - and that is what counts. But the question of the maternal twins, and their souls is important, from the Catholic point of view.

To be blunt, how can a physical splitting of a few cells (which does not have to happen “naturally”, it can happen as the result of microsurgery) affect something that is totally immaterial? Can a surgeon’s scalpel “split” a soul? Or does this scalpel “entice” or “force” God to create a brand new soul? If, as you say in your other post, you care, then why not share your thoughts about it?
 
The question was, when does the “soul” get “assigned” - if that word you find appropriate. Does the immaterial “soul” get split as the splitting of the cells take place? Or it will “stick” with one? (Which one?) Or a brand new soul is created (for lack of a better word)? Does the Catholic teaching not say that the moment of conception is significant? I thought it did. A whole can of worms… and no one seems to care.
R Daneel, as a Catholic theologian I do care, and you are right that the “moment of conception” is a significant concept. The challenges I see are two:

(1) When is the “moment” of conception? Fertilization sometimes takes hours, with no definable moment of conception. Implantation can take even longer. A lot can happen between tn moment one or more sperm penetrate an egg wall and when the gametic load of sperm and egg unite.

(2) What happens with twinning? I have no problem with the idea that normal identical twins are two unique individuals. But what about parasitic twins, where one never develops, but remains merely a tumor embedded within the adult body of the other? Do we have a second person? Is it an abortion when an adult has the cyst of a parastic twin excised?

If we abandon the “infusion” model it might actually help, as it would obviate the need for a precise 'moment" of conception at which time something irrevocably significant happens.

StAnastasia
 
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