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Lenten_ashes
Guest
I’m so sorry you experienced this
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po18guy
Well-known member
Very sorry to hear of this. The evil one is the father of division. It is your call, but I would ask him what makes his pastor or his congregation “Apostolic”? Do they think they have a connection to the twelve Apostles? If so, how? Via the bible? That makes no sense. The re-baptism is an affront to Christ!
Edmundus1581 is correct, in that this almost sounds like a cult of sorts. Since you have the absolute pinnacle of Christian grace in the Holy Eucharist, and the"Apostolic" community does not, my view would be that I would have to renounce Christ to join his group, since you would be walking away from the Bod, Blood, Soul and Divinity of Jesus Christ contained in the Blessed Sacrament.
If you have been away from your faith, now is the time to jump back in - you have two reasons now! Find out when your parish offers adoration of the Blessed Sacrament and take this concern directly to our Lord. No better counsel to be found on earth or in heaven.
Edmundus1581 is correct, in that this almost sounds like a cult of sorts. Since you have the absolute pinnacle of Christian grace in the Holy Eucharist, and the"Apostolic" community does not, my view would be that I would have to renounce Christ to join his group, since you would be walking away from the Bod, Blood, Soul and Divinity of Jesus Christ contained in the Blessed Sacrament.
If you have been away from your faith, now is the time to jump back in - you have two reasons now! Find out when your parish offers adoration of the Blessed Sacrament and take this concern directly to our Lord. No better counsel to be found on earth or in heaven.
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toaslan
Guest
Valdezdinuba: I think everybody is giving you some very good ideas in your difficult situation. I deeply sympathize with you.
I agree with the poster who noticed that your husband’s current decision is based on emotion. If so, he can’t be directly touched by reasons. So don’t try to argue with him. Then the only effect you can currently have on him is emotional: that’s where he is. The very fact that he responds to such pressure from this hysterical church means he is vulnerable in that respect: it means he actually needs strong leadership.
I think your leadership, but of a certain sort, is needed. Your leadership could be your calm assertive confidence about your faith, and your stable strong quiet practice of it and trust in it.
If you consistently put out calm assertive “energy” over time no matter what hysterical things happen, eventually he may find this very comforting and reassuring as the false world he is in crumbles, as it eventually will do.
Right now he is wound up to an emotional pitch, and I see nothing you can or should directly do about it. Prayer, yes; yes also to putting out calm assertive “vibrations” as you live every moment personally deepening your Catholic immersion in Christ’s sacrifice on the Cross.
For why is this project set in front of your face? Because each problem, difficulty, crisis set in front of us is as much a gift for our own personal, private good from God, as are beautiful weather, abundant harvest, a good job, etc. Each thing, good or bad, in front of us is on purpose for us from Him, to provide opportunities to come closer to Him.
So this suffering is not only a dark pit imprisoning your husband, it also is offered as a positive gift for his wife. As others here have already said, this problem gives you a reason to gain that calm assertiveness about your faith which maybe you don’t yet have.
We all have to deepen our grasp on the faith of our childhood as we mature, and I’m sure you have already done this. Now this event seems your invitation to go even deeper into our beautiful Catholic faith. Often we don’t do good things unless we are pressured, so this looks like your pressure. This is for you to do, for its own sake and for your own good as well as for your husband’s.
If I may say, stay steady like a strong train running forward on its tracks: your husband may really be attracted to that stability and steady purpose after some of this emotionalism has worn off.
I would see no harm in agreeing that he does seem better, if that seems to be the case; and allowing you both to have some happiness about that.
As to what caused the change, and whether it will hold, would it not be good for you to be silent on these points? You are able to not agree, and you are able to not disagree; you can take the stance that the cause and prognosis is beyond you as you are neither a medical nor theological expert. But that you are glad that he feels better.
A final note: I personally do not believe you should attend these services, as holy things are abused in them; and your attendance is confusing to all concerned. You actually became a target of attack by your presence, and continuing to attend means somehow you willingly participate in this attack upon yourself and your faith. I just think this is unreal. (Maybe if this all goes on long enough, and you get strong enough, you might ask in fairness for some equal time at that microphone!)
Your attendance means you are voluntarily participating in self abuse and abuse of the Church, in my humble opinion. You can support your husband without supporting his bad decisions: you as his wife can best discern how to do this delicate thing.
It would help to be attentive to the distinction between him and what he says/does; and to plan your responses and actions accordingly. In such a case, under-reaction is better than over-reaction. In fact, you really don’t need to react to his activity at all, just to him. Somehow unconditionally accepting him without going overboard and seeming to accept his errors.
Your Catholic faith can help you through this, no matter what happens or how bad it gets: its riches and resources are infinite. You are a rich and powerful woman with an inheritance like that. So continue to unpack your inheritance, and trust in it and use it.
God bless you, your son and your husband, and send His enlightening Holy Spirit upon you all.
I agree with the poster who noticed that your husband’s current decision is based on emotion. If so, he can’t be directly touched by reasons. So don’t try to argue with him. Then the only effect you can currently have on him is emotional: that’s where he is. The very fact that he responds to such pressure from this hysterical church means he is vulnerable in that respect: it means he actually needs strong leadership.
I think your leadership, but of a certain sort, is needed. Your leadership could be your calm assertive confidence about your faith, and your stable strong quiet practice of it and trust in it.
If you consistently put out calm assertive “energy” over time no matter what hysterical things happen, eventually he may find this very comforting and reassuring as the false world he is in crumbles, as it eventually will do.
Right now he is wound up to an emotional pitch, and I see nothing you can or should directly do about it. Prayer, yes; yes also to putting out calm assertive “vibrations” as you live every moment personally deepening your Catholic immersion in Christ’s sacrifice on the Cross.
For why is this project set in front of your face? Because each problem, difficulty, crisis set in front of us is as much a gift for our own personal, private good from God, as are beautiful weather, abundant harvest, a good job, etc. Each thing, good or bad, in front of us is on purpose for us from Him, to provide opportunities to come closer to Him.
So this suffering is not only a dark pit imprisoning your husband, it also is offered as a positive gift for his wife. As others here have already said, this problem gives you a reason to gain that calm assertiveness about your faith which maybe you don’t yet have.
We all have to deepen our grasp on the faith of our childhood as we mature, and I’m sure you have already done this. Now this event seems your invitation to go even deeper into our beautiful Catholic faith. Often we don’t do good things unless we are pressured, so this looks like your pressure. This is for you to do, for its own sake and for your own good as well as for your husband’s.
If I may say, stay steady like a strong train running forward on its tracks: your husband may really be attracted to that stability and steady purpose after some of this emotionalism has worn off.
I would see no harm in agreeing that he does seem better, if that seems to be the case; and allowing you both to have some happiness about that.
As to what caused the change, and whether it will hold, would it not be good for you to be silent on these points? You are able to not agree, and you are able to not disagree; you can take the stance that the cause and prognosis is beyond you as you are neither a medical nor theological expert. But that you are glad that he feels better.
A final note: I personally do not believe you should attend these services, as holy things are abused in them; and your attendance is confusing to all concerned. You actually became a target of attack by your presence, and continuing to attend means somehow you willingly participate in this attack upon yourself and your faith. I just think this is unreal. (Maybe if this all goes on long enough, and you get strong enough, you might ask in fairness for some equal time at that microphone!)
Your attendance means you are voluntarily participating in self abuse and abuse of the Church, in my humble opinion. You can support your husband without supporting his bad decisions: you as his wife can best discern how to do this delicate thing.
It would help to be attentive to the distinction between him and what he says/does; and to plan your responses and actions accordingly. In such a case, under-reaction is better than over-reaction. In fact, you really don’t need to react to his activity at all, just to him. Somehow unconditionally accepting him without going overboard and seeming to accept his errors.
Your Catholic faith can help you through this, no matter what happens or how bad it gets: its riches and resources are infinite. You are a rich and powerful woman with an inheritance like that. So continue to unpack your inheritance, and trust in it and use it.
God bless you, your son and your husband, and send His enlightening Holy Spirit upon you all.
T
toaslan
Guest
P.S. You husband was not baptized in this “apostolic” Church: a person can only be baptized once.
I bring this up to help clarify the riches of Catholicism which you enjoy as a daughter of the Church.
If your husband was already baptized (as a Catholic, it seems), then any further attempts at baptism are just that, attempts. So they attempted to baptize him but, as he was already baptized, they failed (just so you know, I’m not suggesting you tell him this).
Baptism makes an permanent “mark” on the soul, eternally branding it as a child of God. It’s a watershed event. A sacrament brings about what is signifies, that is, it actually makes the change it looks like it’s making. It’s not just a sign or symbol. It’s a sign which causes the very thing it signifies. So in baptism when the water is poured on the person and the words are said, the soul is actually cleaned (of Original Sin), not just symbolically! That’s the amazingness of being Catholic
I bring this up to help clarify the riches of Catholicism which you enjoy as a daughter of the Church.
If your husband was already baptized (as a Catholic, it seems), then any further attempts at baptism are just that, attempts. So they attempted to baptize him but, as he was already baptized, they failed (just so you know, I’m not suggesting you tell him this).
Baptism makes an permanent “mark” on the soul, eternally branding it as a child of God. It’s a watershed event. A sacrament brings about what is signifies, that is, it actually makes the change it looks like it’s making. It’s not just a sign or symbol. It’s a sign which causes the very thing it signifies. So in baptism when the water is poured on the person and the words are said, the soul is actually cleaned (of Original Sin), not just symbolically! That’s the amazingness of being Catholic
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valdezdinuba70
Guest
I told Juan exactly that before we left for his baptism, I said you were already forgiven for your sins when you were baptized as a baby and he said he can be baptized as many times as he needs and he said he doesn’t remember the first time.
T
toaslan
Guest
Good for you, that you gave the best witness to truth that you could. I think if you study and learn more, you will be even better able to support the truth when Juan is ready. Until he is ready, what seems indicated is that you go on in graduate school, so to speak, learning all you can of the content of your faith. This is so you can talk to him, but perhaps even more importantly, for its own sake and for your own sake.
I will attempt a short course for you, as an example: There is one big sin, Original Sin, which is forgiven by baptism. For forgiveness of sins after that, the sins we remember, we need the Sacrament of Confession or Penance.
Baptism is a watershed event, that is, before it we are orphans and after it we are essentially changed. We become members of God’s family. We become His adopted children. He never unadopts us.
The Original Sin is not a sin you or Juan or I committed. It is the First Sin, the Sin committed by Adam and Eve when they decided to follow their own will against God’s Will in the Garden.
You and I and Juan inherited that Original Sin when we inherited our flesh and bones and blood and DNA from our ancestors going all the way back to the first ancestor, our father Adam. As we inherited our bodies, so also we inherited our souls.
Bodies have inherited qualities and even birth defects. So do souls. The spiritual defect of Original Sin is present in our soul from conception. Original Sin is the damage which crippled the human soul when our father, standing for all of us, broke it by breaking union with God.
This is the condition which is fixed by Baptism.
Remembering receiving the Sacrament is not important, so why Juan brings it up is a question. Do you remember being born? Yet you were born. We are also born through Baptism: Born of the Holy Spirit; just as our bodies are born of our mothers. It is not necessary that we remember the event, in order for the event to have happened.
The sins we go on to commit in life are our own individual actual sins, and we need to go to Confession/Penance about those (“Whose sins you forgive, they are forgiven them; whose sins you retain, they are retained,” which is Jesus inventing this Sacrament as he gives the power of God’s forgiveness to the Apostles.) (This is apologetics, and you can get more of this on this CAF website–see all their great tracts–and on the great site already mentioned above.)
Anyway, just a little sacrament study for you to savor, and hopefully such can someday help you if/when you and Juan are both ready to talk together about this again. It shows how reasonable our Catholic faith is about baptism, and hopefully gives hope.
If you were to go through a small plain old catechism, for example, it might do you a world of good, because doctrinal ideas seem confused from your remarks. You can easily read for free online an old Baltimore Catechism at www.sacred-texts.com. Then what’s what is nice and clear.
Clarity helps us be calmly assertive!
Thousands of people hate what they think the Catholic Church is, while very few hate the actual Church (I forget the exact quote). There is much misunderstanding about the facts. Juan’s hysterical denomination doesn’t know what they are saying, even though they are saying it loudly and all together!
Believe me, the facts are all on your side. We can hope that sorting them out more deeply will not only be good for you, but also useful in helping your husband.
While praying and living your beautiful Catholic faith. You can do it!
V
valdezdinuba70
Guest
I have not read the bible much until just recently I started reading sections that Juan has been telling me about. Can you tell me where to start reading? Would I start from the beginning and just work my way toward the end.
As I have been reading sections I search the section on-line to see the different types of translations.
What would you suggest?
As I have been reading sections I search the section on-line to see the different types of translations.
What would you suggest?
M
mattp0625
Guest
People have preferences. It depends how your mind works.
Some people start from beginning and go in order since the NT is the fulfillment of the OT.
Others go for the “meat and potatoes” of Jesus’s ministry in the gospels.
I prefer the book of Matthew as a starting point.
Take note of the authority Jesus specifically gave to the apostles in Matthew 16, Matthew 28, and John 20 to carry out His church.
L
Lenten_ashes
Guest
Good questions.
I’d stay away from protestant translations entirely. Because 1.) Their bible is incomplete and lacks 7 books and 2.) They are biased and often with reformed slants to them.
Even some of the older Catholic translations aren’t great. The newer** NAB** seems safe, not to be confused with NASB which is one for Calvinists.
I would start in the NT with Matthew. Get well grounded in the gospels and NT first before you move on to the OT.
One last point, when your husband or whoever is challenging you says the bible says ______(insert assertion here) Check out all the translations from bible gateway to see what all the translations say.
Here is a example of what I am talking about. 1 Cor 4:6, check out how different some of these translations are for this one verse:
See that? Same verse with different looking translations. Things aren’t as cut and dry as fundamentlists like to think they are.
And remember you always have your parish priest to help you out too.
T
toaslan
Guest
Reading the bible is 100% a good thing to do. Is it the first thing for you to do right now? Is it good to do it the way Juan probably intends?
The whole Protestant world looks only at the Bible. They think each person can figure it out for himself. They are wrong, and their error is why there are thousands and thousands, literally, of different and separate Protestant denominations. That is why there is this cracked Apostolic “church” to begin with.
The Catholic understands that there is no way to understand the Bible without asking the Church to explain it to you. Her teachings are consistent with, but broader than and include the Bible; just as she is older than the Bible, and is the writer of the bible (her leaders wrote it with inspiration from God). She is the one who knows what it means.
A person without guidance can prove anything from the Bible by picking and choosing some verses and being blind to other verses. I’m just trying to say that you really don’t want to think you are going to convince your husband with bible verses, because there’s always another verse, and another.
It is to be expected that the only thing in religion he is interested in discussing with you is the bible, since he is now operating as a Protestant. So the bible’s your doorway: so on your own you need to be doing the apologetics and doctrinal work–reading the tracts on this website of Catholic.com; and making sure you have a good handle on doctrine–what the Church really teachers, not what the apostolics say she teaches.
If you read those tracts, you will be doing bible study, because mostly they are arguments from the bible itself. They are full of bible quotes and you can refer to the bible to see the quotes as the line of reasoning is developed.
I like the RSV Second Catholic Edition of the bible for reading. I like the Douay Rheims for beauty, accuracy and reference.
By all means read the Bible with the Church! The tracts will help you! Read a quick catechism!
Is there a particular bible question or criticism your husband tends to bring up a lot?
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