Religion of Rules

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I’m of the opinion that one of the biggest dangers of the Catholic church is that it is a religion of rules. I contest that Christianity is meant to set us free to follow Christ (see Galatians 5, 1 Corinthians 10). This means many things, and one thing it means is that we are free from a man made system of rules. I believe that the Catholic church has instituted it’s own system of “law” much like the pharisees in Jesus time instituted rules that drew people away from God. I gave a number of examples of Catholic “rules” that grew much disagreement. This is what I said:
The RCC operates not according to grace, but according to man based rules. To be a good RCC you HAVE to go to church every week, take confession regularly, you can’t eat meat on fridays during lent, you have to genuflect properly when getting into your pew
Despite some suggestions otherwise, I contest that these are rules, nothing else. To see why first let me explain what a rule is, and why Christians shouldn’t need them.

A rule in this sense means pretty much the same thing it does in our usual usage. So it helps to think of when we normally use rules. The answer is simple. We give children rules. We give kids rules because they don’t yet know enough to keep themselves out of trouble. They don’t know what’s good for them and what’s bad for them, so it’s our job to give them rules so that they learn. For the most part we don’t give adults rules because they are mature enough (hopefully) to determine what is and is not bad for them. Although we have speed limits everywhere, an adult shouldn’t need them because an adult knows that going too fast is dangerous. You don’t have to give an adult a bed time because we know we need to be functional for work.

Another important aspect that defines a rule is understanding. For the most part, a person given a rule doesn’t understand why it’s given. Young Children don’t really understand why they have a bedtime (well, most don’t anyway, I certainly didn’t). Most teenagers don’t understand why they shouldn’t speed. Many people don’t really understand why they shouldn’t drink and drive.

Now, let’s apply these same rules to some of my examples above. Does the typical Catholic know why they should give up meat during lent? Do they know why they can’t eat it specifically on a friday? Does anyone know why you are allowed to eat fish? Does anyone know why 50 years ago you couldn’t eat meat on any friday, but now that’s only true for lent? Is this really anything but a rule?

What about going to church on Sundays? Granted, going to church every week is a good idea, and I certainly try the best. But the Catholic church has made it a mortal sin to not go to church on sundays (at least, it used to be, I’m not sure if it still is). Again, christians go to church because they know they should go to church, not because they are told to go to church. I think that if the CC understood this fact, they wouldn’t have made it a mortal sin to skip church on Sundays.

These are just two examples of many of the arbitrary rules the CC has created. The simple fact of the matter is that christianity is not a religion of rules, christianity is about freedom. RCCism however is a religion of rules, and in making itself one it has removed itself from what Jesus intended for His Church. I think this is one of the biggest mistakes it has made.
 
As a non-Catholic, I just don’t understand your argument.

You make a case that rules keep us away from danger, but that those for whom the rules are intended often do not understand their purpose. They protect people from danger, yet the people may not understand them.

Then you go into rules in the Catholic Church.

Should we not infer from your argument that since the objections you raise about the Catholic Church are concerning rules, that the rules you name protect us from danger, even if we do not understand how they protect us?

Your argument seems to fail in basic logic.
 
Did you just say you’re old enough to follow the rules without having to be told.:rolleyes:
 
Keeping the Lord’s Day Holy is one of the Ten Commandments. That’s why we go to church every Sunday.

The idea is that we as created beings, owe our Creator at least that much. So, I wouldn’t classify that one as a “rule” but as a commandment given by God. In fact, I would think that no human being would excuse himself from that command.

Of course, the Church does have its own rules. It even has its own law–Canon Law.

Actually I’ve seen the book of Canon Law. I was interested, because I used to work for the government, and it of course has laws and supplemental volumes of regulations filling entire floors.

But Canon Law is just one book. One book for a world wide Church–I took one look, and said “is that all??”
 
I’m of the opinion that one of the biggest dangers of the Catholic church is that it is a religion of rules. I contest that Christianity is meant to set us free to follow Christ (see Galatians 5, 1 Corinthians 10). This means many things, and one thing it means is that we are free from a man made system of rules. I believe that the Catholic church has instituted it’s own system of “law” much like the pharisees in Jesus time instituted rules that drew people away from God. I gave a number of examples of Catholic “rules” that grew much disagreement. This is what I said:

Despite some suggestions otherwise, I contest that these are rules, nothing else. To see why first let me explain what a rule is, and why Christians shouldn’t need them.

A rule in this sense means pretty much the same thing it does in our usual usage. So it helps to think of when we normally use rules. The answer is simple. We give children rules. We give kids rules because they don’t yet know enough to keep themselves out of trouble. They don’t know what’s good for them and what’s bad for them, so it’s our job to give them rules so that they learn. For the most part we don’t give adults rules because they are mature enough (hopefully) to determine what is and is not bad for them. Although we have speed limits everywhere, an adult shouldn’t need them because an adult knows that going too fast is dangerous. You don’t have to give an adult a bed time because we know we need to be functional for work.

Another important aspect that defines a rule is understanding. For the most part, a person given a rule doesn’t understand why it’s given. Young Children don’t really understand why they have a bedtime (well, most don’t anyway, I certainly didn’t). Most teenagers don’t understand why they shouldn’t speed. Many people don’t really understand why they shouldn’t drink and drive.

Now, let’s apply these same rules to some of my examples above. Does the typical Catholic know why they should give up meat during lent? Do they know why they can’t eat it specifically on a friday? Does anyone know why you are allowed to eat fish? Does anyone know why 50 years ago you couldn’t eat meat on any friday, but now that’s only true for lent? Is this really anything but a rule?

What about going to church on Sundays? Granted, going to church every week is a good idea, and I certainly try the best. But the Catholic church has made it a mortal sin to not go to church on sundays (at least, it used to be, I’m not sure if it still is). Again, christians go to church because they know they should go to church, not because they are told to go to church. I think that if the CC understood this fact, they wouldn’t have made it a mortal sin to skip church on Sundays.

These are just two examples of many of the arbitrary rules the CC has created. The simple fact of the matter is that christianity is not a religion of rules, christianity is about freedom. RCCism however is a religion of rules, and in making itself one it has removed itself from what Jesus intended for His Church. I think this is one of the biggest mistakes it has made.
If you follow the rules for the sake of the rules, you are bound to feel this way eventually- you’ll get burned out- or you’ll be a bad witness to others (which is all too often the case). Don’t follow the rules “because the Church says so” (that is the worst excuse I can imagine, honestly). Follow the rules because you want to. Go to Mass every week because you want to go to Mass- because you know what happens there and you think it’s amazing and you recognize what an honor it is to have the opportunity to go. Don’t genuflect “because that’s just what we do”, do it because Jesus is truly present in the tabernacle, and you want to show reverence for Him. Don’t pray the rosary because “it’s just what we do”, pray the rosary because you love Mary and you love Jesus and you recognize the role of Mary in salvation history, and want to honor her- and honor Jesus through her.
 
The simple fact of the matter is that christianity is not a religion of rules, christianity is about freedom.
Where did you get this idea? You believe that Christianity is about personal freedom? Rather than following the will of God?
 
Rules are bad???
The Catholic Church has the obligation to elaborate and explain the faith as to how it should be exercised in order to guide us to Christ.
In the Liturgy of the Mass, the Church as the Body of Christ on earth, defines how the supreme form of worship of the One who saves us is to be carried out. It is their duty and obligation to do this.
The rules are to show us the “narrow road” and to keep us on track. We use the wisdom of the Church to make up for what we lack in our understanding of our journey to Christ and freedom.

mdcpensive1
 
Aren’t Chapters 5,6,and 7 of Matthew’s gospel a bunch of rules given to us by Jesus?? HUH?? Jesus was Catholic??? Now what are you going to do?? He didn’t just say, " BE FREE!!!" Nope, sorry , my friend , your post makes absolutely no sense and is totally unbiblical. Go back to the drawing board of perhaps the Bible that the Catholic Church wrote, acknowledged. maintained and continues to interpret to this day by the inspiration of the same Holy Spirit who authored it. God Bless you and may your faith that is free from rules find the Christ who commanded us to certain actions which without we cannot be His followers.

Religion of rules?? Nope. Christ and His rules of love and obedience…God Bless…teachccd:)
 
So you are saying we should throw away ‘our’ rules and follow ‘your’ rule to get to Christ…hmmmm…Self refuting arguments are bummer eh?

Even if I grant you that I know what you are trying to get at you are not logically connecting the fact that because we have rules, that they are inherently bad.

Your example about children and rules is dubious at best and at worst is downright the most ridiculous thing ive heard in a while. What you seem to be suggesting, or at least logically follows from your example, is that people should just ‘know’ the rules. Are you serious? You are not speaking of humans I can tell you that.
 
Tentmaker:
Should we not infer from your argument that since the objections you raise about the Catholic Church are concerning rules, that the rules you name protect us from danger, even if we do not understand how they protect us?
Your argument seems to fail in basic logic.
You’ve missed one of my main points. My main point was that Christianity is about living free in Christ, guided by the Holy Spirit, not living by rules. Christians don’t live by rules, we live by the Holy Spirit
Jeremiah 31:33 (New International Version)
New International Version (NIV)
Copyright © 1973, 1978, 1984 by International Bible Society
[NIV at IBS] [International Bible Society] [NIV at Zondervan] [Zondervan]
33 “This is the covenant I will make with the house of Israel
after that time,” declares the LORD.
"I will put my law in their minds
and write it on their hearts.
I will be their God,
and they will be my people.
I guess this points need explaining. Christianity is about freedom, freedom in Christ. Freedom in Christ means living guided by the Holy Spirit. It means that are actions are not motivated by personal desire, selfish needs, or even the rules of a church. It means that our actions and our thoughts are guided by the Holy Spirit living within us and convicting us to follow Jesus in our lives. I go to church every week not because my church tells me I need to go to church every week (under threat of mortal sin) but because I know that I need to go to church every week to fellowship with believers and learn. In all things, a christian should act according to the guidance of the Holy Spirit, not according to the dictates of their church.
 
You’ve missed one of my main points. My main point was that Christianity is about living free in Christ, guided by the Holy Spirit, not living by rules. Christians don’t live by rules, we live by the Holy Spirit
A lovely sentiment and a worthy goal to aspire to.

Be that as it may, we’re humans, with free will and human weakness - sometimes, as willing as the spirit and the Spirit may be, our flesh is still weak. Like those cold rainy winter Sundays. As good and important as you know it is to go to Mass your body isn’t keen on leaving your nice warm house.

That’s when we need rules to help us do the right thing.
 
In all things, a christian should act according to the guidance of the Holy Spirit, not according to the dictates of their church.
How do you discern when it’s the Holy Spirit leading you and not your own desires?
 
I go to church every week not because my church tells me I need to go to church every week (under threat of mortal sin) but because I know that I need to go to church every week to fellowship with believers and learn. In all things, a christian should act according to the guidance of the Holy Spirit, not according to the dictates of their church.
WOW!! You have quite an argument with our Lord who said," Go therefore and make disciples of all nations baptizing them in the name of the Father…" And who said" DO this in memory of me" And who said, If you believe in me keep my commandments." OOOPS Looks like you have to take this up with a much higher authority. So when are you going to tell our Lord that we don’t need His rules?? Can I be there??..Get real…teachccd:)
 
I mostly stick to studying scripture and the wise men who knew it well. But I find comfort in going over the rosary and use the concept of mortal sin to let me know the really bad things. Christ warned much about the Pharisees, and the last thing he would want is anything more than what he told us if it is dogmatic, but the wisdom of ‘the fathers of the church’ keeps me coming back, and also the way their saints and martyrs are highlighted admitting to Rome’s own mistakes in the beginning of Christianity with Nero.
 
I think it depends on what you mean by rules. Yes, Catholicism has a lot of regulation about it, but I wonder if an Evangelical theologian could get far by saying the Bible is not inerrant and inspired by God, or if an Evangelical Church would welcome someone who always cursed Christ openly in its midst. I think all religions have both orthodoxy (certain accepted forms of belief and law) and orthpraxy (rules for right practice) and this applies to all branches of Christianity.
 
I’m of the opinion that one of the biggest dangers of the Catholic church is that it is a religion of rules. I contest that Christianity is meant to set us free to follow Christ (see Galatians 5, 1 Corinthians 10). This means many things, and one thing it means is that we are free from a man made system of rules. I believe that the Catholic church has instituted it’s own system of “law” much like the pharisees in Jesus time instituted rules that drew people away from God. I gave a number of examples of Catholic “rules” that grew much disagreement. This is what I said:

Despite some suggestions otherwise, I contest that these are rules, nothing else. To see why first let me explain what a rule is, and why Christians shouldn’t need them.

A rule in this sense means pretty much the same thing it does in our usual usage. So it helps to think of when we normally use rules. The answer is simple. We give children rules. We give kids rules because they don’t yet know enough to keep themselves out of trouble. They don’t know what’s good for them and what’s bad for them, so it’s our job to give them rules so that they learn. For the most part we don’t give adults rules because they are mature enough (hopefully) to determine what is and is not bad for them. Although we have speed limits everywhere, an adult shouldn’t need them because an adult knows that going too fast is dangerous. You don’t have to give an adult a bed time because we know we need to be functional for work.

Another important aspect that defines a rule is understanding. For the most part, a person given a rule doesn’t understand why it’s given. Young Children don’t really understand why they have a bedtime (well, most don’t anyway, I certainly didn’t). Most teenagers don’t understand why they shouldn’t speed. Many people don’t really understand why they shouldn’t drink and drive.

Now, let’s apply these same rules to some of my examples above. Does the typical Catholic know why they should give up meat during lent? Do they know why they can’t eat it specifically on a friday? Does anyone know why you are allowed to eat fish? Does anyone know why 50 years ago you couldn’t eat meat on any friday, but now that’s only true for lent? Is this really anything but a rule?

What about going to church on Sundays? Granted, going to church every week is a good idea, and I certainly try the best. But the Catholic church has made it a mortal sin to not go to church on sundays (at least, it used to be, I’m not sure if it still is). Again, christians go to church because they know they should go to church, not because they are told to go to church. I think that if the CC understood this fact, they wouldn’t have made it a mortal sin to skip church on Sundays.

These are just two examples of many of the arbitrary rules the CC has created. The simple fact of the matter is that christianity is not a religion of rules, christianity is about freedom. RCCism however is a religion of rules, and in making itself one it has removed itself from what Jesus intended for His Church. I think this is one of the biggest mistakes it has made.
Can I ask you why there is a rule forbidding having sex with another when you are Married? Or is this in your view simply another locked door to freedom?
 
Okay, since Christians should be free of rules, what about applying the following to the Protestant churches:
  • No tithing requirement for membership
  • No membership requirement to fulfill various functions
  • Alcohol if you want it
  • Dancing if you want to
  • Optional church attendance
  • No confirmation requirement
  • No baptism requirement
  • No pastor—who made him the authority? Rotate sermon-givers
  • No sola scriptura requirement
  • No sola fide requirement
  • Any version of Scripture you like, including Gnostic texts and other apocrypha
  • Non-Christian faiths welcome to “share” their worship practices
Starting to sound more and more Unitarian, isn’t it?

Protestants have plenty of rules and plenty of traditions—they simply don’t admit it because doing so begs the question re: sola scriptura.
 
I think it depends on what you mean by rules. Yes, Catholicism has a lot of regulation about it, but I wonder if an Evangelical theologian could get far by saying the Bible is not inerrant and inspired by God, or if an Evangelical Church would welcome someone who always cursed Christ openly in its midst. I think all religions have both orthodoxy (certain accepted forms of belief and law) and orthpraxy (rules for right practice) and this applies to all branches of Christianity.
Bingo!

A religion without rules is not even a club.
 
The Bible itself is full of rules, and it is my understanding that these are not suggestions. To say that an adult does not need rules is, I believe, quite incorrect. I think it would be more correct to say that an adult is not motivated by the fear of punishment for breaking the rules, but is rather motivated by the desire to live a good life. The adult is able to see the benefits of following the rules, and that is sufficient for him or her. In the same way, a faithful Catholic who truly loves God is probably not motivated by fear of punishment, but rather wants to live the way God desires him or her to live.

I am in the Army, and when I tell one of my soldiers to do something, I expect him to do it. However, it is my hope that he will do it simply because it is his job, not because he fears being punished. But whether out of fear, a sense of duty, or simply love for the job, he will still accomplish the task. I can’t just think to myself, “Well, Private Smith is an adult. He’ll figure out what he needs to do and where he’s supposed to be.” That approach would lead to chaos, and it might well result in Private Smith losing his life in combat. However, if I make him fully aware of the rules, and I enforce those rules, then he will know what his duties are and what he is supposed to do in combat.

In the same way, in the Church, people need the rules so that they will know how they ought to live their lives here on this Earth. Hopefully, people will have the spiritual maturity to see the benefits of following the rules, and the punishments for breaking the rules will not be a factor in their decision to follow them. However, for those who are not so mature in their faith, who perhaps struggle a bit more with sin, the consequences for breaking the rules may be just what they need to keep them on the right path.

I am an “almost” Catholic, so I don’t speak with experience here, but it seems that even the requirement to confess my sins to the priest would greatly assist me in keeping the rules and avoiding sin.

Here’s to the rules! May they always keep me on the straight and narrow.
1 Peter 2:16 Live as free men, but do not use your freedom as a cover-up for evil; live as servants of God. (NIV)
 
You’ve missed one of my main points. My main point was that Christianity is about living free in Christ, guided by the Holy Spirit, not living by rules. Christians don’t live by rules, we live by the Holy Spirit

I guess this points need explaining. Christianity is about freedom, freedom in Christ. Freedom in Christ means living guided by the Holy Spirit. It means that are actions are not motivated by personal desire, selfish needs, or even the rules of a church. It means that our actions and our thoughts are guided by the Holy Spirit living within us and convicting us to follow Jesus in our lives. I go to church every week not because my church tells me I need to go to church every week (under threat of mortal sin) but because I know that I need to go to church every week to fellowship with believers and learn. In all things, a christian should act according to the guidance of the Holy Spirit, not according to the dictates of their church.
Well, if you were truly “free in Christ” you would understand that the “rules” promulgated by the Catholic Church are simply a distillation of the mind of Christ expressed in a way that the children can understand.

The Church does not make up rules for the sake of making up rules. In fact, she doesn’t “make up rules” – rather she expresses in the form of a rule the behavioral manifestation of the greater truth.

For example, Church on Sunday: the person who is “free in Christ” will understand without any rule that keeping the Lord’s day holy and “not absenting yourself from the assembly” are expressions of life in Christ. Others may need to have that interpreted in an easy-to-understand way: Mass is required on Sunday.
 
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