Religion of Rules

[BlestOne]

I broke down your post into 2 categories:

Assumptions:

• The RCC operates not according to grace, but according to man based rules. The Roman Catholic Church is the ONLY Church that Christ established on earth, all other churches are man made. The Church is the pillar and foundation of Truth.
• To be a good RCC you HAVE to go to church every week, As is stated in the 10 commandments… right from God. You should be wondering why Protestants aren’t keeping the commandments.
• take confession regularly, Again, instituted by Jesus…. Try reading James 5:13~20, keep in mind who the audience is here… the apostles.
• you can’t eat meat on Fridays during lent, *This is a discipline not a rule. *
• you have to genuflect properly when getting into your pew First, this isn’t a rule, it is not “required” it is a discipline or a tradition….And you don’t think that God deserves this form of reverence and respect?
  Premises
• We give kids rules because they don’t yet know enough to keep themselves out of trouble. They don’t know what’s good for them and what’s bad for them, so it’s our job to give them rules so that they learn. Are we not God’s own children? Do we know and understand all about our God? Then I submit since we don’t know it all, we are as children to our Creator and Lord.
• Another important aspect that defines a rule is understanding. For the most part, a person given a rule doesn’t understand why it’s given. I disagree, I know why there are traffic laws, yet there are still rules of the road that apply to me.
• Does the typical Catholic know why they should give up meat during lent? *Gee, I sure hope that they do. It is taught and re-taught every lent… so if they are keeping the Lord’s commandments, they should know right?*The Church recognizes that, since meat is a chief part of most meals served in most places, and since meat is usually the most valued or expensive part of a meal, abstinence from meat on Fridays is a good way for Christians to unite themselves more closely to the sufferings of their Lord (Rom. 8:16-17, 1 Pet. 2:21) by denying themselves something they enjoy. Abstinence from meat is a sacrifice which unites them in penance and strengthens the solidarity of the Church through mild suffering. It’s also a good form of mortification, which disciplines the soul and strengthens its resistance to concupiscence. Paul practiced and recommended mortification: “I drive my body and train it, for fear that after having preached to others, I myself should be disqualified” (1 Cor. 9:27).
• Do they know why they can’t eat it specifically on a friday? *Again…a practice or discipline not a “rule” The reason is because Friday is the day of our Lords death, we do this as a remembrance on Fridays for this reason. *
• Does anyone know why you are allowed to eat fish? *Because warm blood doesn’t flow through it’s veins. *
• Does anyone know why 50 years ago you couldn’t eat meat on any friday, but now that’s only true for lent? *Depends on the person. My husband and I, along with our children do not eat meat on Fridays all year. My bosses family doesn’t eat meat on Wednesdays all year. We do it as a remembrance of our Lords crucifixion and as a penitential act. *
• Is this really anything but a rule?
  As I have said repeatedly, it is a discipline not a rule. We choose to honor our Lord by holding to the longstanding traditions of meatless Fridays and to teach our children how small the sacrifice compared to what our Lord did for us.

 

[Odell]

I’m of the opinion that one of the biggest dangers of the Catholic church is that it is a religion of rules. I contest that Christianity is meant to set us free to follow Christ (see Galatians 5, 1 Corinthians 10). This means many things, and one thing it means is that we are free from a man made system of rules. I believe that the Catholic church has instituted it’s own system of “law” much like the pharisees in Jesus time instituted rules that drew people away from God. I gave a number of examples of Catholic “rules” that grew much disagreement. This is what I said:

Despite some suggestions otherwise, I contest that these are rules, nothing else. To see why first let me explain what a rule is, and why Christians shouldn’t need them.

A rule in this sense means pretty much the same thing it does in our usual usage. So it helps to think of when we normally use rules. The answer is simple. We give children rules. We give kids rules because they don’t yet know enough to keep themselves out of trouble. They don’t know what’s good for them and what’s bad for them, so it’s our job to give them rules so that they learn. For the most part we don’t give adults rules because they are mature enough (hopefully) to determine what is and is not bad for them. Although we have speed limits everywhere, an adult shouldn’t need them because an adult knows that going too fast is dangerous. You don’t have to give an adult a bed time because we know we need to be functional for work.

Another important aspect that defines a rule is understanding. For the most part, a person given a rule doesn’t understand why it’s given. Young Children don’t really understand why they have a bedtime (well, most don’t anyway, I certainly didn’t). Most teenagers don’t understand why they shouldn’t speed. Many people don’t really understand why they shouldn’t drink and drive.

Now, let’s apply these same rules to some of my examples above. Does the typical Catholic know why they should give up meat during lent? Do they know why they can’t eat it specifically on a friday? Does anyone know why you are allowed to eat fish? Does anyone know why 50 years ago you couldn’t eat meat on any friday, but now that’s only true for lent? Is this really anything but a rule?

What about going to church on Sundays? Granted, going to church every week is a good idea, and I certainly try the best. But the Catholic church has made it a mortal sin to not go to church on sundays (at least, it used to be, I’m not sure if it still is). Again, christians go to church because they know they should go to church, not because they are told to go to church. I think that if the CC understood this fact, they wouldn’t have made it a mortal sin to skip church on Sundays.

These are just two examples of many of the arbitrary rules the CC has created. The simple fact of the matter is that christianity is not a religion of rules, christianity is about freedom. RCCism however is a religion of rules, and in making itself one it has removed itself from what Jesus intended for His Church. I think this is one of the biggest mistakes it has made.

you are pretty close to how Chistepher West explains it in Theology of the Body for Beginers

This is from [Christopher West’s Book Theology of the body for beginners pg 40]

“Most people look at Christian morality-especially sexual morality-as an oppressive list of rules to follow. How far this misunderstanding is from the living morality proclaimed by Christ! The Gospel doesn’t give us more rules to follow. The Gospel is meant to change our hearts so that we no longer need the rules(see cathichsm 1968) To the degree that we experience this change of heart we experience freedom from the law(Rom7;Gal 5) not freedom to break the law; freedom to fulfill it.”
"Here’s an example of what freedom from the law looks like: Do you have any desire to murder your best friend? This may seem like an odd question, but it actually demonstrate the point. Assuming you do not, then you don’t need that commandment. Thou shall not murder thy best friend. Because you have no desire to break it. To this extent you are free from the law. In other words, you don’t experience this law as an imposition because your heart conforms to it.

before original sin the human heart conformed to Gods. that is what Christ came back for to show us how to conform our will to his. and the Church is there to help

one last thing
When we allow Christ into our hearts we no longer need the law because we no longer desire to break them. What law do you still need? What teachings of the Church still feel like a burden or imposition to you? Perhaps the problem isn’t the law or the Church, but with your “hardness of heart” don’t throw away the law surrender your disordered desires to Christ and let him transform them.”

 

[prodigal-sun]

WITHOUT LAW THERE IS CHAOS… WE ALL KNOW WHO THE FATHER OF THAT IS!

Peace! I will pray for your conversion of you heart cmancone… so that the truth of the church is not so much a yoke as cross!

Peace!

 

[Pixie_Dust]

. I go to church every week not because my church tells me I need to go to church every week (under threat of mortal sin) but because I know that I need to go to church every week to fellowship with believers and learn.

Actually, I go to church every week to worship and adore my Saviour, Jesus Christ. I don’t know why anyone would want to miss an opportunity to praise and worship Him.

 

[flyersfan1088]

If you think the Catholic Church has rules, what about Leviticus?!

 

[Sabda]

A rule in this sense means pretty much the same thing it does in our usual usage. So it helps to think of when we normally use rules. The answer is simple. **We give children rules. We give kids rules because they don’t yet know enough to keep themselves out of trouble. They don’t know what’s good for them and what’s bad for them, so it’s our job to give them rules so that they learn. **For the most part we don’t give adults rules because they are mature enough (hopefully) to determine what is and is not bad for them. Although we have speed limits everywhere, an adult shouldn’t need them because an adult knows that going too fast is dangerous. You don’t have to give an adult a bed time because we know we need to be functional for work.

Another important aspect that defines a rule is understanding. For the most part, a person given a rule doesn’t understand why it’s given. Young Children don’t really understand why they have a bedtime (well, most don’t anyway, I certainly didn’t). Most teenagers don’t understand why they shouldn’t speed. Many people don’t really understand why they shouldn’t drink and drive.

**BINGO!!! **In the highlight parts you’ve got it!!! This is why the Church has rules. How many times in the New Testament are Christians referred to as children of God or even simply as children??? Is God not our Father??? What is one thing that fathers do? Make rules to keep their children safe. Why? Because they love their children and want the absolute best for them.

 

[Nepenthe]

I am not a Catholic, but I do very much understand what you are driving at, OP. And, as I understand it, the church does indeed teach that if you truly understand the rules and live by them, then you need not be overly scrupulous, but mature and responsible in your life, and following those rules because they are also your rules as well as the church’s…

For example, missing church on Sunday may be a mortal sin, but if you have a serious illness or injury, of course you should stay home! You might get other people sick if you go there with a raging flu, or wind up back in the hospital if you’re injured. They even have various ways to compensate for such temporary disability, like coming by the house to give communion, or you could perhaps go a few extra times when you’re feeling well enough again.

 

[Nepenthe]

I am not a Catholic, but I do very much understand what you are driving at, OP. And, as I gather, the church does indeed teach that if you truly understand the rules and live by them, then you need not be overly scrupulous, but mature and responsible in your life, and following those rules because they are also your rules as well as the church’s…

For example, missing church on Sunday may be a mortal sin, but if you have a serious illness or injury, of course you should stay home! You might get other people sick if you go there with a raging flu, or wind up back in the hospital if you’re injured. They even have various ways to compensate for such temporary disability, like coming by the house to give communion, or you could perhaps go a few extra times when you’re feeling well enough again.

 

[Nepenthe]

Kill this, please?

 

[Nepenthe]

Arg, forum problems. I’m sorry, could a mod kill those duplicate posts?

 

[teachccd]

Arg, forum problems. I’m sorry, could a mod kill those duplicate posts?

Maybe it was needed to be said twice.

 

[MinHC]

It may be seen as rules or it may be seen the rules for freedom.

Look at modern society and all the ills in society where people don’t follow rules as laid down in the bible before one even deals with the laws of the land.
Too much alcohol consumption, drug addiction, spread of sexual diseases, unhappiness from liberal lifestyles etc etc

I have always felt the rules which come from the bible are liberating if we follow them rather than restrictive.

 

[jburgherr]

Even from the begining, man was given rules to live by. Adam and Eve were given:
(Gen 3:3) But of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of paradise, God hath commanded us that we should not eat; and that we should not touch it, lest perhaps we die.

God has given us rules so that we would be free to do what we ought to do. Not to do anything we like.

 

[Strider]

I think there’s a good example of a laissez-faie church, one that doesn’t have a lot of onerous rules that nobody understands.
I don’t want to be Episcopalian.
The rules, (and I can answer every one of those questions in our OP), properly understood, make one free.
If one understands the rules and accepts them, then one can concentate in becoming more like Christ instead of trying to figure out what to do because ther’s no rule there.

 

[mark_a]

. . . . many of the arbitrary rules.

Oh. Here’s your problem.

You assume that because you don’t understand, there’s no need, much like the bedtime and drunk driving examples you gave above.

Now go to bed.

 

[guanophore]

I’m of the opinion that one of the biggest dangers of the Catholic church is that it is a religion of rules.

Please substantiate this baseless accusation.

I believe that the Catholic church has instituted it’s own system of “law” much like the pharisees in Jesus time instituted rules that drew people away from God.

By what criteria do you distinguish the rules given by Jesus, and the rules made by men?

Despite some suggestions otherwise, I contest that these are rules, nothing else. To see why first let me explain what a rule is, and why Christians shouldn’t need them.

I have to agree, Christians should not need rules. However, since there is a vast gap between what is, and what should be, they are necessary. It’s great to say “Love God, and do whatever you want”. However, each person’s capacity to “Love God” is different, and there are varying degrees of selfishness.

A rule in this sense means pretty much the same thing it does in our usual usage. So it helps to think of when we normally use rules. The answer is simple. We give children rules. We give kids rules because they don’t yet know enough to keep themselves out of trouble. They don’t know what’s good for them and what’s bad for them, so it’s our job to give them rules so that they learn.

So, you don’t think there are any baby Christians who need protection?

For the most part we don’t give adults rules because they are mature enough (hopefully) to determine what is and is not bad for them. Although we have speed limits everywhere, an adult shouldn’t need them because an adult knows that going too fast is dangerous. You don’t have to give an adult a bed time because we know we need to be functional for work.

This is an absurd bit of reasoning. Let’s just take all the stoplights out, then.

Another important aspect that defines a rule is understanding. For the most part, a person given a rule doesn’t understand why it’s given. Young Children don’t really understand why they have a bedtime (well, most don’t anyway, I certainly didn’t). Most teenagers don’t understand why they shouldn’t speed. Many people don’t really understand why they shouldn’t drink and drive.

You just refuted your point above. First you say we should not have any drunk driving laws, because responsible adults will know what not to do. Then here you say that “many people don’t really understand why they shouldn’t drink and drive”. Well, which one is it?

Now, let’s apply these same rules to some of my examples above. Does the typical Catholic know why they should give up meat during lent? Do they know why they can’t eat it specifically on a friday? Does anyone know why you are allowed to eat fish? Does anyone know why 50 years ago you couldn’t eat meat on any friday, but now that’s only true for lent? Is this really anything but a rule?

Yes, it is also a spiritual discipline that can help one to grow in their experience and understanding of Jesus.

What about going to church on Sundays? Granted, going to church every week is a good idea, and I certainly try the best. But the Catholic church has made it a mortal sin to not go to church on sundays (at least, it used to be, I’m not sure if it still is).

The Catholic Church did not do that. God did that. I think you will need to distinguish between the commandments of God, and the rules of men. I conceded that there are differences, and that the Catholic Church does make rules. But the Church did not create the Sabbath, or command that it should be kept holy.

Again, christians go to church because they know they should go to church, not because they are told to go to church. I think that if the CC understood this fact, they wouldn’t have made it a mortal sin to skip church on Sundays.

The truth is that the vast majority of so called Christians in America do NOT go to church, even though they will say they should.

These are just two examples of many of the arbitrary rules the CC has created. The simple fact of the matter is that christianity is not a religion of rules, christianity is about freedom. RCCism however is a religion of rules, and in making itself one it has removed itself from what Jesus intended for His Church. I think this is one of the biggest mistakes it has made.

You have several errors in your premise. In any case, there are NO arbitrary rules. Any rules that have been promulgated are for the spiritual benefit of the faithful.

Furthermoe, the Church does not make “mistakes” in teaching of faith and morals, because if it did, then Jesus would be a liar.

 

[NewUlm1976_2000]

Is this a question of the rules or how or should they apply or if any still apply in the modern world?

No Catholic knows ALL the rules (Canon Law, CCC, etc…), the list is way too long and there are many contradictions and interpretations out there. This is a good thing of course as the Church is not static but open to growth. It ideally needs to look to the future to fulfill its missions.

What many Priests say is to care for your fellow person in the end. There is no checklist in the end if you did not dot every i or cross every t.

In the end most Catholics get the meaning of most of the laws/rules and use them in the world if they are orthodox or heterodox, find their faith in social outreach or endless prayer/ceremony. If you mix people of these sub-groups together all sides will often come away learning at least one thing from another one that is often used in the future.

 

[Drunken_Master]

Is this a question of the rules or how or should they apply or if any still apply in the modern world?

No Catholic knows ALL the rules (Canon Law, CCC, etc…), the list is way too long and there are many contradictions and interpretations out there. This is a good thing of course as the Church is not static but open to growth. It ideally needs to look to the future to fulfill its missions.

What many Priests say is to care for your fellow person in the end. There is no checklist in the end if you did not dot every i or cross every t.

In the end most Catholics get the meaning of most of the laws/rules and use them in the world if they are orthodox or heterodox, find their faith in social outreach or endless prayer/ceremony. If you mix people of these sub-groups together all sides will often come away learning at least one thing from another one that is often used in the future.

Is there rules that contradict others in Roman Catholicism?

 

[Mimi]

The Bible itself is full of rules, and it is my understanding that these are not suggestions.
(snip)
I am in the Army, and when I tell one of my soldiers to do something, I expect him to do it. However, it is my hope that he will do it simply because it is his job, not because he fears being punished. But whether out of fear, a sense of duty, or simply love for the job, he will still accomplish the task. I can’t just think to myself, “Well, Private Smith is an adult. He’ll figure out what he needs to do and where he’s supposed to be.” That approach would lead to chaos, and it might well result in Private Smith losing his life in combat. However, if I make him fully aware of the rules, and I enforce those rules, then he will know what his duties are and what he is supposed to do in combat.

In the same way, in the Church, people need the rules so that they will know how they ought to live their lives here on this Earth. Hopefully, people will have the spiritual maturity to see the benefits of following the rules, and the punishments for breaking the rules will not be a factor in their decision to follow them. However, for those who are not so mature in their faith, who perhaps struggle a bit more with sin, the consequences for breaking the rules may be just what they need to keep them on the right path.

I am an “almost” Catholic, so I don’t speak with experience here, but it seems that even the requirement to confess my sins to the priest would greatly assist me in keeping the rules and avoiding sin.

Here’s to the rules! May they always keep me on the straight and narrow.

Iambic, THANK YOU FOR YOUR SERVICE, and may God protect you; (I’m saying the St. Michael prayer here for you and the troops).

Thank you for taking the time to post here also. Hope you’ll be Catholic soon!

Onward Christian soldiers, marching as to war …
(everybody sing along…)

Mimi
Navy mom since '00

 

[Philthy]

I’m of the opinion that one of the biggest dangers of the Catholic church is that it is a religion of rules. I contest that Christianity is meant to set us free to follow Christ (see Galatians 5, 1 Corinthians 10). This means many things, and one thing it means is that we are free from a man made system of rules.

It does not, however, mean that we are set free from the rules of God. God’s rules still rule. Your concern regarding rules has been refuted. You must demonstrate, therefore, that the rules of the Church are not of God to make any logical progress.

For the most part we don’t give adults rules because they are mature enough (hopefully) to determine what is and is not bad for them. Although we have speed limits everywhere, an adult shouldn’t need them because an adult knows that going too fast is dangerous. You don’t have to give an adult a bed time because we know we need to be functional for work.

Let me give you a piece of advice: when you reach a “conclusion” such as “we dont give adults rules” - which is clearly and irrefutably false - you should stop writing and RETHINK your position. Don’t just continue to babble on expecting the rest of us to follow such nonsense. The obvious fact of the matter is that we do have rules for adults - they are called, among other things, laws.

Does the typical Catholic know why they should give up meat during lent?

I think so

Do they know why they can’t eat it specifically on a friday?

Again, I think so.

Does anyone know why you are allowed to eat fish?

I do

Does anyone know why 50 years ago you couldn’t eat meat on any friday, but now that’s only true for lent?

Yes, I do.

Is this really anything but a rule?

No, it isnt.

What about going to church on Sundays?

Can you tell me exactly what is meant by “Keep Holy the Sabbath Day”? For some reason God thought it was important enough to make it a rule for adults.

Granted, going to church every week is a good idea, and I certainly try the best. But the Catholic church has made it a mortal sin to not go to church on sundays (at least, it used to be, I’m not sure if it still is). Again, christians go to church because they know they should go to church, not because they are told to go to church. I think that if the CC understood this fact, they wouldn’t have made it a mortal sin to skip church on Sundays.

Just for the record, where in Scipture do you believe we are instructed to go to Church (not Temple)?

These are just two examples of many of the arbitrary rules the CC has created. The simple fact of the matter is that christianity is not a religion of rules, christianity is about freedom. RCCism however is a religion of rules, and in making itself one it has removed itself from what Jesus intended for His Church. I think this is one of the biggest mistakes it has made.

So, in essence, you acknowldge that everyone “should” go to church on Sunday because it is “good” for them, but when the Church says “Going to Church on Sunday is God’s Will; not going to Church is contrary to God’s Will and, therefore, is a sin”
you object to that???
It sounds to me like you remain a slave to what you have determined what “doing your best” is, and you are not truly free. Just my opinion, though.