Religion, Parenthood, Brainwashing and Branding

[Vera_Ljuba]

I didn’t say they were the same. I invented an analogy.

But the analogy is incorrect. Contrary to general misconceptions in math there are no absolute, objective truths. Every true proposition (theorem) is the derivative of the chosen axioms. And the axioms can be anything, they can be chosen arbitrarily. The only requirement is that they must be internally consistent.

Just a simple example:In one system 1 + 1 = 2
In another one 1 + 1 = 10
In yet another one: 1 + 1 = 1
And one more: 1 + 1 = 0

All are correct - but the underlying axioms are different.
Morality has no axioms. Morality does not even deal with facts or IS-statements it deals with OUGHT-statements.

 

[PRmerger]

But the analogy is incorrect. Contrary to general misconceptions in math there are no absolute, objective truths.

LOL!

Is this a mathematical absolute?

 

[Aloysium]

. . . Every true proposition (theorem) is the derivative of the chosen axioms. And the axioms can be anything, they can be chosen arbitrarily. The only requirement is that they must be internally consistent.

Just a simple example:In one system 1 + 1 = 2
In another one 1 + 1 = 10
In yet another one: 1 + 1 = 1
And one more: 1 + 1 = 0

All are correct - but the underlying axioms are different. . . .

But, according to a few posters here, in no case could 3=1.
If you don’t buy the axiom, you can’t understand the result.

 

[rcwitness]

The significant difference with moral and mathematical absolutes are the way we see them. One is by the senses (flesh and blood), the other is through revelation (faith).

 

[CHRISTINE77]

‘Well, kid, when you die you get buried in the ground and eaten by worms.’

‘Well, kid, if you are naughty you get sent to hell where you will be tormented for eternity’.

I’m not sure either approach is good for young children.

Tell him what you believe by all means, but don’t tell him he must believe it.

If you are “naughty” you will go to Hell??? Wow talk about stretching the point!

How about “nothing matters whatsoever what you do in your life, because your body will be eaten by worms and there is nothing at all after this life, so go ahead and be as evil as you like while you live, or not, because nothing matters at all in the end.”

The Christian would say, “If you do evil to your fellow man, God will punish you according to your sins. So sin no more, repent of your sins, follow the teachings of Jesus and you will be in Heaven with God and your loved ones after death.”

Which is the better message?

 

[Bradski]

IThe Christian would say, “If you do evil to your fellow man, God will punish you according to your sins.”

According to your sins? Now that’s not true, is it, Christine.

‘Hey, how come you ended up here?’
‘Me? Darn it, I was playing with my genitals. You?’
‘Genocide. I ordered the killing of a few million people’.

Did you know that 95% of males admit to masturbation and 5% lie about it. I’m not sure about the figures for genocide.

And do you know anyone who is an atheist who tells their children that it’s OK to do what they want? It’s a view that’s not even worthy of response. Except to say that you don’t believe it, I don’t believe it, no Christian believes it…in fact there has never been a person alive who believes it. Why do we keep getting this nonsense?

 

[PRmerger]

According to your sins? Now that’s not true, is it, Christine.

Emmm…of course it is. No one is sent to hell for someone else’s sin.

 

[PRmerger]

Emmm…of course it is. No one is sent to hell for someone else’s sin.

And let me pre-empt by saying: limbo is not hell (eternal torment), nor is it even Church teaching that there is such a thing as limbo.

 

[rcwitness]

According to your sins? Now that’s not true, is it, Christine.

‘Hey, how come you ended up here?’
‘Me? Darn it, I was playing with my genitals. You?’
‘Genocide. I ordered the killing of a few million people’.

Did you know that 95% of males admit to masturbation and 5% lie about it. I’m not sure about the figures for genocide.

Each person in hell will know that the reason whoever is there, is there because they did not repent of serious sin. The fact that some sinned more is only relative to the degree of their suffering. We aren’t judged according to others, but according to God and His perfection. That’s also why He provided for us a perfect sacrifice!

 

[Bradski]

Each person in hell will know that the reason whoever is there, is there because they did not repent of serious sin. The fact that some sinned more is only relative to the degree of their suffering.

Are they both in hell for eternity, or not?

 

[rcwitness]

Are they both in hell for eternity, or not?

They are.

 

[rcwitness]

They are.

… and their names are George and Frederick.

 

[CHRISTINE77]

According to your sins? Now that’s not true, is it, Christine.

‘Hey, how come you ended up here?’
‘Me? Darn it, I was playing with my genitals. You?’
‘Genocide. I ordered the killing of a few million people’.

Did you know that 95% of males admit to masturbation and 5% lie about it. I’m not sure about the figures for genocide.

And do you know anyone who is an atheist who tells their children that it’s OK to do what they want? It’s a view that’s not even worthy of response. Except to say that you don’t believe it, I don’t believe it, no Christian believes it…in fact there has never been a person alive who believes it. Why do we keep getting this nonsense?

Sorry about your masturbation problem, but I am not the judge of you! God will judge you according to his ways. Personally I feel that masturbation is not up there with genocide, but what makes you think the punishment will be equal?

I don’t know what atheists tell their kids to do or why. Why do you tell your children to follow a moral code?? Just because?

 

[rcwitness]

Sorry about your masturbation problem, but I am not the judge of you! God will judge you according to his ways. Personally I feel that masturbation is not up there with genocide, but what makes you think the punishment will be equal?

The wages of sin, is death.

Jesus is coming to give recompense to repay everyone according to what they have done. To those who persist in unrepented sin, there is condemnation and death. To those who repent of sin and believe in the Son of God, there is forgiveness and life.

There may be those who committed mass murder in heaven (but repented) and those who use contraception with their spouse in hell (cuz they did not repent).

This is painting a very simple picture. The point is whoever believes will be saved. Those who believe will repent of sin, even though they may fall many times!

 

[Bradski]

Sorry about your masturbation problem, but I am not the judge of you! God will judge you according to his ways. Personally I feel that masturbation is not up there with genocide, but what makes you think the punishment will be equal?

I don’t know what atheists tell their kids to do or why. Why do you tell your children to follow a moral code?? Just because?

Again, you are not correct. Man has decided what will get you into hell. And man says masturbation and genocide will see you in hell for eternity. And when you point out that only a lunatic would consider that justice, all we get is a shrug of the shoulders: ‘Hey, we don’t make the rules’.

When it is plainly obvious that you do.

And I was going to say that I really don’t believe that you cannot comprehend that there are reasons for being moral that don’t include a belief in God. But maybe you actually can’t. I find it incredibly difficult to understand, but maybe you really can’t.

It would mean that if you temporarily lost your belief, you would have no idea how to explain to anyone why stealing or murder was wrong. I’m at a loss how that could actually be true. It’s a little chilling.

 

[CHRISTINE77]

Again, you are not correct. Man has decided what will get you into hell. And man says masturbation and genocide will see you in hell for eternity. And when you point out that only a lunatic would consider that justice, all we get is a shrug of the shoulders: ‘Hey, we don’t make the rules’.

When it is plainly obvious that you do.

And I was going to say that I really don’t believe that you cannot comprehend that there are reasons for being moral that don’t include a belief in God. But maybe you actually can’t. I find it incredibly difficult to understand, but maybe you really can’t.

It would mean that if you temporarily lost your belief, you would have no idea how to explain to anyone why stealing or murder was wrong. I’m at a loss how that could actually be true. It’s a little chilling.

Well humor me, Bradski, what are the reasons for being moral without a belief in eternity or God? I mean ultimately. I understand that to live peacefully with others we can’t just steal from them or murder them, but how would you explain that to a psychopath who only believes in himself?

What do you mean by “temporarily lost belief”?

 

[rcwitness]

Again, you are not correct. Man has decided what will get you into hell. And man says masturbation and genocide will see you in hell for eternity. And when you point out that only a lunatic would consider that justice, all we get is a shrug of the shoulders: ‘Hey, we don’t make the rules’.

Man is going to hell because he disobeyed God according to the Law. The first Law, from God, was to Adam and Eve. They disobeyed. He gave life, and in order for Him to sustain their life, He required obedience. That was lost. Yet, He remained with man in order to redeem him. This was established through sacrifices made for transgression the Law. He then delivered the foundation of His law through commandments and promises. He did these with Covenants and prophets. Still, man was only convicted by the Law that he was unable to satisfy the Creator perfectly. He then provided His only Son, in order to live a perfect life in the flesh of man. This Son is glorified by God and given all authority over the flesh. Those who repent and seek forgiveness, He promised life.

 

[Bradski]

Well humor me, Bradski, what are the reasons for being moral without a belief in eternity or God?

I’m not interested in humouring you by explaining basic secular concepts of morality.You either understand them or you don’t. If you do, then it’s a step in the right direction, but whether you accept them or not is pretty much irrelevant to me.

 

[PRmerger]

Sorry about your masturbation problem, but I am not the judge of you! God will judge you according to his ways. Personally I feel that masturbation is not up there with genocide, but what makes you think the punishment will be equal?

I don’t know what atheists tell their kids to do or why. Why do you tell your children to follow a moral code?? Just because?

Oh my gosh. That first line. Literally made me spit out my chips in laughter.

 

[CHRISTINE77]

I’m not interested in humouring you by explaining basic secular concepts of morality.You either understand them or you don’t. If you do, then it’s a step in the right direction, but whether you accept them or not is pretty much irrelevant to me.

Why would I accept secular concepts of morality? It seems irrelevant to me also.