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I
inocente
Guest
But where does the CCC teach that “The Lake of Fire is created for those who reject Him and do not seek His reconciliation”?
Because you said “the Gospel is about the joyful good news. It is not a threat!” but you also said “The Lake of Fire is created for those who reject Him and do not seek His reconciliation”. Seems like either you’re saying that lake of fire is nonthreatening joyful good news, or else you’re not being consistent.
I think your Church has never authorized you to tell a child she will be tormented eternally in a lake of fire if she rejects your religion.
In my church we don’t ask a child to commit to Christ until she’s mature enough to understand what that commitment means.
Do you think God agrees with you that everyone deserves freedom of religion? Because if God does, please explain why you think He has people who exercise that freedom burn forever in a lake of fire?
I
inocente
Guest
Here’s how I see it. The quotes in italics are from en.radiovaticana.va/news/2016/04/27/pope_francis_love_thy_neighbour_like_the_good_samaritan/1225767
‘The Samaritan, a schismatic Jew, was despised in Jesus’ day as “an outsider, a pagan and impure,” notes the Pope.’
By choosing such as person as his hero, Jesus challenges us. Who can be a good neighbor? Anyone. God doesn’t do brands. All human beings are descendants of Adam. If you prick us, do we not bleed?
“The Samaritan, the Pope stresses, acts with true mercy: he binds the man’s wounds, takes him to a hostel, and “personally takes care of him.””
Jesus’ hero doesn’t ask which brand the victim is before helping him. He acts with mercy. Any person of any brand of belief can be capable of that.
Suppose that in the parable, the Samaritan is instead a lifelong atheist who shows mercy and kindness, not for any promised reward but because he believes it’s the right thing to do. While the priest and Levite are instead men born into lukewarm Christian families, who never rejected their lukewarm Christianity but have never helped anyone in need.
‘Their religiosity is ultimately inauthentic, for it does not find expression in service to others.’
I hope you’ll agree that anyone who says those Christians have an automatic pass into heaven, or says the atheist has an automatic trip to hell, has not understood the parable. I mean those lukewarm Christians, in the Pope’s words, wouldn’t be “an image of the infinite mercy of God”.
‘Love, the Lord tells us, is never abstract or distant; it “sees” and it responds. The compassion shown by the Samaritan is an image of the infinite mercy of God, who always sees our needs and draws near to us in love.’
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goout
Guest
Ok, but that’s not what was said previously. That changes the subject.
The Pharisees were not legalistic and spiritually bankrupt per se. Christ does not call them out because they are observant Pharisees.
It was their* idolatry of* legal observance. Christ himself respected the Law and Jewish Tradition.
The works of mercy are the fulfillment of the law, not in opposition to the law as is commonly and incorrectly supposed. When doctrine and observance etc…are set in opposition to mercy we find indifferentism, as if the love of God springs out of thin air. God of course can do what he wants, but we are not called to indifferentism.
A-theism does not dispose a person to Christian goods. An a-theist might live according to Christian values, but a-thiesm does nothing to dispose a person to Christianity. Obviously,.
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PRmerger
Guest
Indeed. In fact, he appeals to them, to their religious authority, and enjoins his disciples to follow what they say.
The scribes and the Pharisees have seated themselves in the chair of Moses; therefore all that they tell you, do and observe, but do not do according to their deeds; for they say things and do not do them.—Matthew 23:1-3
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CHRISTINE77
Guest
Exactly. There may be good moral atheists and very bad immoral atheists. Being an atheist has nothing to do with being a good Samaritan. Weird argument in my opinion.
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benhur
Guest
Hi i,
Yes agree to your statements on the parable, but find the above again to need qualifying. I am just not sure it applies to the parable, at least the atheist .
Again we agreed that there are those who have a form of godliness but deny the power thereof, as speaking to false Christians, or unregenerate Pharisees etc. But i think the atheist fits in there also . I mean, he may be merciful, but denies the source thereof. If the atheist has a chance not to go to hell (to go to heaven) what do you base it on , his works, his merciful but unbelieving heart ?
But I am with you in that the parable is a sobering reality check for a believer into just who is our neighbor, and who can exhibit a heart after God, even an atheist, though in ignorance of his Creator.
Blessings
R
rcwitness
Guest
CCC
634
The gospel was preached even to the dead." The descent into hell brings the Gospel message of salvation to complete fulfillment. This is the last phase of Jesus’ messianic mission, a phase which is condensed in time but vast in its real significance: the spread of Christ’s redemptive work to all men of all times and all places, for all who are saved have been made sharers in the redemption.
1970
The Law of the Gospel requires us to make the decisive choice between “the two ways” and to put into practice the words of the Lord. It is summed up in the Golden Rule, “Whatever you wish that men would do to you, do so to them; this is the law and the prophets.”
The entire Law of the Gospel is contained in the “new commandment” of Jesus, to love one another as he has loved us.
1257
Baptism is necessary for salvation for those to whom the Gospel has been proclaimed and who have had the possibility of asking for this sacrament.
161
Believing in Jesus Christ and in the One who sent him for our salvation is necessary for obtaining that salvation. “Since “without faith it is impossible to please [God]” and to attain to the fellowship of his sons, therefore without faith no one has ever attained justification, nor will anyone obtain eternal life ‘But he who endures to the end.’”
1037
God predestines no one to go to hell; for this, a willful turning away from God (a mortal sin) is necessary, and persistence in it until the end.
1816
The disciple of Christ must not only keep the faith and live on it, but also profess it, confidently bear witness to it, and spread it: “All however must be prepared to confess Christ before men and to follow him along the way of the Cross, amidst the persecutions which the Church never lacks.” Service of and witness to the faith are necessary for salvation: "So every one who acknowledges me before men, I also will acknowledge before my Father who is in heaven; but whoever denies me before men, I also will deny before my Father who is in heaven."
How long will you pit the two against one another? The good news is God’s incredible love, grace and mercy towards man, in Jesus of Nazareth! How can someone do anything good and yet deny this message? All their good efforts are nothing if they reject this in their heart! You seem to mistake a righteous warning with a malicious threat.
Who told you I have ever told a child this? What do you mean by “your religion”? I thought we were talking about the Gospel? I am a 7th/8th grade CCD teacher. I have never threatened anyone with hell.
Ok. What about the person who is able to understand the Gospel, has heard the message about Jesus, and willfully decides not to believe in Him? They decide to believe it’s just a nice, wishful story to help people cope with the fact that there is no God, but it’s just a fairy tale and Jesus was only a religious man. Is that person saved, according to your faith?
I’m not sure what you are asking. Yes, I believe everyone deserves freedom of religion. Hell is not God’s will, but man’s free will to deny God. Man just happens to be lost and cannot see. His desires are for himself. God’s desires are for others, because He is not lost. The one who denies God is lost. The one who believes and is reconciled through belief, prayer, Baptism (even if only it’s desire) and faith working in love, will be accepted by Jesus.
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PRmerger
Guest
Yes. And infant baptism is another example that we Catholics do not believe in a works-salvation, for what “work” does an infant do in order to achieve the grace of God?
Not a thing.
We do not deny even the littlest ones the chance to become a member of the family.
The best image for hell comes from Peter Kreeft:
“Imagine a man in hell—no, a ghost—endlessly chasing his own shadow, as the light of God shines endlessly behind him. If he would only turn and face the light, he would be saved. But he refuses to—forever.” That is hell.
He goes on to say, "Hell follows from two other doctrines: heaven and free will. If there is a heaven, there can be a not-heaven. And if there is free will, we can act on it and abuse it. Those who deny hell must also deny either heaven (as does Western secularism) or free will (as does Eastern pantheism).
I
inocente
Guest
They are the leading example of legalism:
- en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legalism_(theology))
- wayoflife.org/database/youlegalist.html
- bible.org/seriespage/lesson-57-why-jesus-hates-legalism-luke-1137-54
- charismanews.com/opinion/46346-8-signs-of-a-legalistic-spirit-and-how-to-break-free
- ewtn.com/v/experts/showmessage.asp?number=379495&Pg=&Pgnu=&recnu=
As you agree that “works of mercy are the fulfillment of the law”, it follows that those who act with mercy are fulfilling the law, whatever their brand.
I
inocente
Guest
Agreed on your last paragraph. As for your question, the parable deserves reading without the preconceptions which some bring to it. It’s a bit of a miracle that Jesus packs so many lessons into such a short story. Notice that Jesus doesn’t make the two respected believers, the Levite and priest, both of whom fully acknowledge the source of the law, the good neighbors. Exact opposite. The good neighbor is instead the one who acts with mercy.
I
inocente
Guest
I asked where does the CCC teach “The Lake of Fire is created for those who reject Him and do not seek His reconciliation”?
That paragraph doesn’t, does it? It doesn’t say anything about rejecting God. None of your quotes appear to teach that “The Lake of Fire is created for those who reject Him and do not seek His reconciliation”.
How is it good news of God’s incredible love, grace and mercy to say there’s a lake of fire for those who reject Him?
I said children look at CAF, so those children have read your view that anyone who rejects your religion will burn forever in yon lake of fire, which apparently is some kind of unending proof of grace and mercy. I asked where does the CCC teach that, so those children will know whether or not it does.
My faith teaches that God makes these decisions. In the words of Miley Cyrus “Remember only God can judge ya”.
You don’t see that telling people “the Lake of Fire is created for those who reject Him and do not seek His reconciliation” is by definition not freedom?
That’s not free-will, it’s coercion. “I’ll make him an offer he can’t refuse.”
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goout
Guest
Yes.
Pharisees are the leading examples in the Gospel of those who don’t understand this, not because they are Pharisees, but simply because they don’t understand it (or don’t live it).
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benhur
Guest
Hi I,
What is the grace, what is the mercy? What do we deserve ? What is unmerited, mercy from what ?Being separated from God ?Just what does that mean ? Does He not by His grace keep us from every insanity, even destruction ? Does He not even hold the atom together ? What is it to perish ?
Warmth is not good news unless you are cold. Drink is not good news unless you are thirsty. Being clothed is not good news unless you are naked. Being saved is not good news unless you were unsaved. A way to become one with God is not good news unless all other ways left you apart from God. Going to heaven is not good news if otherwise you were going to hell.
Jesus spoke of hell more than anyone in the bible, and, “Fear of the Lord is the beginning of all wisdom and understanding” which I hope we agree is taking the entirety of His truth and reality of life/afterlife…not just “fire and brimstone” and not just feel good sentiments. They go together.
No human has has gotten a good partial dose of seeing His truth and reality without becoming "undone’’, and of coming to experience the painful separation from him due to His holiness and our sin. (look at some of the prophets and even Peter)
Maybe we are on same page, that at least part of the good news is that hell no longer has to be the default destination. Also that salvation is not genuine if all it is is a get out of hell pass. In the end salvation is entering into His love for us, and part of that love takes us out of the pit of hell to seat us in heavenly places! Come on, can’t get more gloriously graceful than that!
Blessings
B
benhur
Guest
Hi I,
LOL. Really ? Miley? I know, I know, God can speak out of the mouth of babes, or even a jackass.
Yet why does Jesus also say "Judge but judge righteously " ? The fact is God has not left us ignorant of His ways, that we can have the mind of Christ, for the Spirit discerns all things. He has given us keys, to enter in accord with His will, which includes how He will judge indeed.
At times we need to be careful with judging and we can go a wry. But at other times we cop out, or as some say here, "beyond my pay grade’’…which can be nothing but false piety, a lack of entering into a difficult place of the mind of God. We do have basic guidelines that God does not stray from. One of them is that if you deny Christ here, He will deny you “there”. I don’t mind a Jesus quote trumping Miley’s, unless Miley meant, “Jesus will judge ya”.
Blessings
R
rcwitness
Guest
We preach the Gospel. The Gospel does have a warning, which Jesus is clear about. All children, if there are any, reading this thread, can decide for themselves who is relating the Gospel more accurately. I have posted Scripture and Catholic Teaching to support my statements. Such as this:Yes.
Pharisees are the leading examples in the Gospel of those who don’t understand this, not because they are Pharisees, but simply because they don’t understand it (or don’t live it).
Luke 10
After this the Lord appointed seventy others, and sent them on ahead of him, two by two, into every town and place where he himself was about to come.2And he said to them, “The harvest is plentiful, but the laborers are few; pray therefore the Lord of the harvest to send out laborers into his harvest.3Go your way; behold, I send you out as lambs in the midst of wolves.4Carry no purse, no bag, no sandals; and salute no one on the road.5Whatever house you enter, first say, ‘Peace be to this house!’6And if a son of peace is there, your peace shall rest upon him; but if not, it shall return to you.7And remain in the same house, eating and drinking what they provide, for the laborer deserves his wages; do not go from house to house.8Whenever you enter a town and they receive you, eat what is set before you;9heal the sick in it and say to them, ‘The kingdom of God has come near to you.’10But whenever you enter a town and they do not receive you, go into its streets and say,11‘Even the dust of your town that clings to our feet, we wipe off against you; nevertheless know this, that the kingdom of God has come near.’12I tell you, it shall be more tolerable on that day for Sodom than for that town.
R
rcwitness
Guest
We preach the Gospel. The Gospel does have a warning, which Jesus is clear about. All children, if there are any, reading this thread, can decide for themselves who is relating the Gospel more accurately. I have posted Scripture and Catholic Teaching to support my statements. Such as this:
Luke 10
After this the Lord appointed seventy others, and sent them on ahead of him, two by two, into every town and place where he himself was about to come. And he said to them, “The harvest is plentiful, but the laborers are few; pray therefore the Lord of the harvest to send out laborers into his harvest. Go your way; behold, I send you out as lambs in the midst of wolves. Carry no purse, no bag, no sandals; and salute no one on the road. Whatever house you enter, first say, ‘Peace be to this house!’ And if a son of peace is there, your peace shall rest upon him; but if not, it shall return to you. And remain in the same house, eating and drinking what they provide, for the laborer deserves his wages; do not go from house to house. Whenever you enter a town and they receive you, eat what is set before you; heal the sick in it and say to them, ‘The kingdom of God has come near to you.’ But whenever you enter a town and they do not receive you, go into its streets and say, ‘Even the dust of your town that clings to our feet, we wipe off against you; nevertheless know this, that the kingdom of God has come near.’ I tell you, it shall be more tolerable on that day for Sodom than for that town.
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benhur
Guest
Hi i,
Reminds me of a joke i heard the other day. A police officer gave a lady a traffic ticket. Upon handing it to her she told him thru the window, “You can go straight to hell !” There was a court hearing with the lady and officer present. The judge acquitted her of any wrongdoing with her comment, saying it was not a command or a desire but rather a point of fact.
I just do not see how warning of a possible negative consequence is limiting freedom. (i wish it were, for then maybe hell would be a lot emptier, but apparently many people freely chose to go there, ignore any warning…freedom is not infringed one bit with a “point of fact”).
If only folks would fearfully respect the Padrino’s warnings like in the movie. We are told the warning will be refused much more than not.
Now if you do not believe in hell , that is another matter, and it would then be at least coercion, and much worse I would say to warn of it. “The simple go on and be punished.”
Blessings
R
rcwitness
Guest
You mean… “I’ll make 'em an offer they can’t refuse.”???
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goout
Guest
Love is a free choice, not coerced. Cooercion can’t be love.
The choice whether or not to return God’s love is of such magnitude not because of the possible negative consequences but because of the immeasureable good. There is nothing comparable to the immeasurable good that God is.
Even the most comfortable existence would be as nothing without God.
Hell doesn’t have to be 3rd degree burns, it’s simply anything at all that is not God.
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