Religious Against 'Blind Obedience'

[Elizabeth502]

Schneiders Writes Amid Vatican Scrutiny

Sr. Sandra Schneiders, professor at GTU member school Jesuit School of Theology of Santa Clara University, has written a five-part essay, Religious Life as Prophetic Life Form, exploring the meaning of religious life today. Schneiders writes within the context of a three-year Vatican investigation of U.S. women religious (Catholic Sisters) because she says “the Vatican investigation of U.S. women religious has created what the Chinese ideogram for ‘crisis’ means, namely a situation of danger and opportunity.”

Although the Sisters do not know what the Vatican will do with the information it collects, some Sisters are concerned that the Vatican’s objective is to shift them back into living in convents, wearing habits or identifiable religious garb, ordering their schedules around daily prayer, and working primarily in Roman Catholic service organizations, like schools and hospitals.

Schneiders says Catholic Sisters are under investigation for upsetting the ecclesiastical status quo of the Church, and resisting patriarchal control of their lives. She says, “I want to encourage the clear articulation and courageous claiming of our experience, which will encourage us to live the vocation to which we have been called…”

Read Part 1 of Schneiders’ essay: “The pernicious appeal for blind obedience”

Read July 2009 New York Times article

some Sisters are concerned that the Vatican’s objective is to shift them back into living in convents, wearing habits or identifiable religious garb, ordering their schedules around daily prayer, and working primarily in Roman Catholic service organizations, like schools and hospitals.

(Imagine)

I very much respect her as an academic, but the notion that it is somehow radical and objectionable for vowed religious to serve a spiritually hungry laity is off, i.m.o.

And as to obedience, well that’s one of the three vows, actually.

 

[SallyMargie]

The “social activist” nuns today (who incidentally won’t do a thing to fight abortion, contraception, etc.) remind me of a story Bishop Sheen once told. He saw a nun not dressed in a religious habit, with no identifying items such as carrying a rosary, wearing a cross or veil, He called her “Sister Peter.” When questioned why he said it t was because she was betraying the Lord 3 times–just as Peter. No veil. No rosary. No cross…(As if she did not want to be identified as a nun dedicated to the Lord!)
( Not the exact words–but you get the picture!)

These poor nuns have been duped by “liberation theology” which has only served to enslave–not free them.

 

[Elizabeth502]

Hi, Sally.

Liberation Theology actually refers to an invented scriptural theology which politicizes the message of Jesus to refer inaccurately to politically oppressed peoples in modern eras. While it violates every respected approach to biblical studies, it actually is not at all related to the movement in many religious orders to self-liberate from Vatican oversight.

Thanks for the story about Fulton Sheen. I think the thing that bothers me even more (although I think a uniform habit of some kind, for an Order, is important for a variety of reasons, most especially the aspect of witness) is the elevation of self above community, not to mention above Church. The language that these independent religious use is all about (earthly) self-realization.

The concept that daily prayer is somehow out of step with modernity, not to mention out of step with --ahem-- religious life, is a concept that leaves one not knowing where to begin to respond. Daily prayer is the stuff of daily Christianity, daily Catholicism, and absolutely religious life. It’s essential. Gosh, it’s essential for us laity! All we would need to do is to post a poll about whether anyone notices a 1:1 correspondence with effort in prayer and the spiritual (and practical) fruits of prayer, and I doubt there would be more than 3% who believed there is little relationship.

The same goes for community. Some of us have discussed this on other threads, so I won’t dwell in repetition here, but suffice it to say that community is one of the essentials of effective witness and is virtually essential as an organic support for the enormous giving that should be, anyway, at the heart of religious life.

Catholic schools have been vanishing at an alarming rate since so many religious orders decided to create a wholly different framework for a vowed life: one based on self-fulfillment and independence from one another and from the church as a body – laity, not just clergy. l’ve said this before and I’ll say it again: it is not believable that thousands of excellent teachers who were also religious, discovered overnight that “teaching is not their charism.”

 

[Corki]

Well, this was the same sister who was urging non-compliance in the surveys the congregations were asked to complete prior to the visitation. She has an “interesting” definition of obedience in general (blind or otherwise ).

Elizabeth, do you have a link to the four part essay or the article? Thanks.

 

[RedSoxFan]

(Imagine)

I very much respect her as an academic, but the notion that it is somehow radical and objectionable for vowed religious to serve a spiritually hungry laity is off, i.m.o.

And as to obedience, well that’s one of the three vows, actually.

What has she done that makes you respect this woman as an academic?

 

[edwest2]

Sad. Another repackaging of the term Dissident Catholic. For Religious, their Lord is Jesus Christ. The Vatican is quite detailed when explaining itself regarding what it is doing. And by the way, Catholic schools are not disappearing because there are fewer Religious, but the number of students has declined from the days of the Baby Boomers, so-called. I’m one of them.

In our desire to be compassionate to the stranger, especially those with “new” ideas, we are sometimes led astray. However, we need to recognize as we were told in the Bible, that false teachers will appear among us. This means, to put it simply, some will lie to our faces with a smile on theirs’. It is an ugly truth that needs to be recognized. One false or compromized teacher in one school will teach how many students every year?

Be sober, be vigilant. With wisdom get understanding.

Peace,
Ed

 

[Elizabeth502]

Catholic schools are not disappearing because there are fewer Religious, but the number of students has declined from the days of the Baby Boomers, so-called. I’m one of them.

Not quite. There was a significant Echo Boom in the late 80’s through early 90’s which created tremendous pressure on Catholic schools, and there were not enough of them to satisfy the demand.

 

[Elizabeth502]

What has she done that makes you respect this woman as an academic?

She is a serious scripture scholar who has contributed a fair amount to New Testament theology. Beyond that, I will not contribute to any harming of her reputation. I did not mean to open this thread with such lack of charity in mind, and I’m sorry if I have contributed to any. I meant the discussion to focus on the regrettable detours that so many otherwise gifted religious have chosen. (This has been discussed on other threads as well.) It was not meant as a focus on her, truly, but on her words which I bolded, as emblematic of a state of mind shared by many religious – by their own acknowledgement.

Corki, I’ll find that link.

 

[Elizabeth502]

Elizabeth, do you have a link to the four part essay or the article? Thanks.

I think it’s five parts actually. Here it is:

ncronline.org/news/women/religious-life-prophetic-life-form

She, and other religious, may have legitimate complaints about a sense of domination or a lack of respect by the hierarchy. But the trend to dispense with obedience (because of that perception) runs contrary to the calling of religious life. They may be good and holy women; I am convinced that many are. I have met some who are not living in community but living upstanding lives. And for that matter, there may be whole Orders who are doing fine work outside of a traditional religious format.

But I do believe that the traditional religious lifestyle is also sorely needed in the Church.

 

[pnewton]

“Blind obedience” is a frequent insult used by those who dissent from the teaching of the Catholic. It implies that one who does not agree with them must some how be ignorant. It ignores the theological reasons one might defer in obedience to the Church.

 

[Beachcomber]

Thanks for providing the link. Santa Clara U is in my ‘neck of the woods,’ so I’m particularly interested.

What struck me was the phrase ‘ordering their schedules around daily prayer,’ and why that would be a problem. Good grief, people! I’m a married lay person, had kids, and I always factored prayer time, time with the Lord, into my day.

 

[SisterJane]

I think some of the people in this forum are deliberately misunderstanding what Sr. Schneiders is saying here. She is not saying that women who are religious should leave the service of the Catholic community -what she is saying is that religious should have a choice on where to use their talents in a way that will best serve the Catholic community.

Perhaps you all are not aware of this, but back in the day, out of blind obedience, women religious were forced by their leaders to teach school. Many of these women lacked any actual education training. Many of these sisters, who did their duty out of this blind obedience some of you seem to charish, have since talked about how without this training they felt as if they were failing the children they were supposed to serve. If any of you have ever taught before, you know it is hard work that does require some know how. Can you imagine being an 18 year old sister thrust into a classroom of 50 children without any actual understanding of how to best help those children learn? I heard one sister tell me this was exactly the situation she faced and she was horrified since she knew parents were spending their hard earned money to help their children get a ‘good Catholic education’ and yet she didn’t feel as if she could provide it.

I know I certainly wouldn’t want a sister teaching my children if she a) she didn’t have the training to be a teacher b) she didn’t want to be a teacher, c) she did not feel called to teach. And yet that is what they were forced to do for decades by parish priests who preferred to have warm bodies in those classrooms that worked for free or for very little pay, rather than have to pay decent educated lay teachers.

I don’t understand why anyone would find it objectionable for a sister to work in a field that she was actually good at and wanted to do. If she is a good investment banker, why not use those talents to benefit the church which so desperately needs the money. If she is a good social worker, why not allow to her to work with the poor or help alcoholics? If she is a good community organizer, give her a chance to work in the communities where she is needed most -Catholic or non-Catholic. Isn’t a sister who does a great job helping the poor on the far South Side of Chicago a better witness to God’s love and the Catholic faith than a lady who wears a habit and black and white outfit and is nasty to children because she never wanted to be in the classroom in the first place (and you know those women did exist)?

To send these sisters back to convents to pray for all of us (which they are doing for us anyway, even if they are not cloistered, they still pray) or to send them only to teaching and hospital jobs, especially when so many parishes don’t have the priests to do the work they used to do in the parish seems so very short sighted and so out of touch with today’s reality.

Do any of you who criticize these women actually know any of these sisters you brand as liberal? The ones I know are some of the most devoted, most selfless, most dedicated Catholics I’ve met. They work for the poor without stopping, they are on the front lines of civil rights movements, they are running charities in places no one else would go and they do this all with true obedience to God and without asking for any thanks for attention.

Please, stop this kind of misogynist thinking. Rather than staying lost in this sentimental wish for the sisters who we now see as jokes gracing the front of greeting cards, stop attacking them and take a closer look at all the good work they are doing today.

With God’s Love,
Jane

 

[johnnykins]

…Perhaps you all are not aware of this, but back in the day, out of blind obedience, women religious were forced by their leaders to teach school.

Gee, if they joined, say, the School Sisters of Notre Dame - why were they surprised that they were expected to teach? Ditto, Sister of St. Joseph. If they joined the Daughters of Charity were they surprised when they were sent to hospitals and clinics? Just a big red herring - or are you saying the sisters were particularly stupid and preternaturally docile?. If your concern is that their interests changed, I simply ask, were they not aware BEFORE THEY TOOK FINAL VOWS that they were joining an order with an education mission?

Many of these women lacked any actual education training. Many of these sisters, who did their duty out of this blind obedience some of you seem to charish, have since talked about how without this training they felt as if they were failing the children they were supposed to serve. If any of you have ever taught before, you know it is hard work that does require some know how. …

Hmmmm… Well, why didn’t they leave? Why didn’t they do any discernment? Every order had temporary vows - even way back when. So it took these dear sisters what, 4, 10 15 years to figure out they were in the wrong order with no support and no idea what they were doing? Give us a break!

I know I certainly wouldn’t want a sister teaching my children if she a) she didn’t have the training to be a teacher b) she didn’t want to be a teacher, c) she did not feel called to teach.

And, you had better take those incompetent sisters and their superiors to task!! What a bunch of fools or worse! Joining AND STAYING IN FOR MULTIPLE YEARS teaching orders without knowing it? Sending incompetent teachers to teach? Those women were indeed beyond belief !

And yet that is what they were forced to do for decades by parish priests who preferred to have warm bodies in those classrooms that worked for free or for very little pay, rather than have to pay decent educated lay teachers.

A giant UNTRUTH - (1) the priests forced no one to join the order (2) the sister were in orders with their own superiors who were sisters - don’t play the “blame the guys” game. If what you say is true - which I do not believe - it was the superiors or sisters who you should blame, i.e., the women leaders of those orders who did not supply the needed training, who took in sisters so ignorant they didn’t know what the order did, that took sisters without any discernment - or the sisters who were too stupid or timid in joining an order they did not like or were called to.

I don’t understand why anyone would find it objectionable for a sister to work in a field that she was actually good at and wanted to do. If she is a good investment banker, why not use those talents to benefit the church which so desperately needs the money. If she is a good social worker, why not allow to her to work with the poor or help alcoholics? If she is a good community organizer, give her a chance to work in the communities where she is needed most -Catholic or non-Catholic. Isn’t a sister who does a great job helping the poor on the far South Side of Chicago a better witness to God’s love and the Catholic faith than a lady who wears a habit and black and white outfit and is nasty to children because she never wanted to be in the classroom in the first place (and you know those women did exist)?

Duh - but why did they join teaching orders? You got the whole thing backwards. There were and are orders of teachers, as well as those who provide social services, etc.

To send these sisters back to convents to pray for all of us (which they are doing for us anyway, even if they are not cloistered, they still pray) or to send them only to teaching and hospital jobs, especially when so many parishes don’t have the priests to do the work they used to do in the parish seems so very short sighted and so out of touch with today’s reality.

The unfortunate reality is that too many sisters have and spout heresy, anti-Catholicism or plain silliness: Enneagrams, Reiki, Therapeutic Touch, communism, New Age, Pro-abortion, denial of dogma. No I don’t want them in the parish - and I’ve seen and heard them far too many times.

Do any of you who criticize these women actually know any of these sisters you brand as liberal? The ones I know are some of the most devoted, most selfless, most dedicated Catholics I’ve met.

yeah several. Some are very devout and very Catholic. Far too many - and I’ve known them - are bitter, New Agey Catholic-in-name-only fools with an anti-Catholic agenda - it’s really a terrible shame…

They work for the poor without stopping, they are on the front lines of civil rights movements, they are running charities in places no one else would go and they do this all with true obedience to God and without asking for any thanks for attention.

Yes many are just like that - others, again many, are as I described above.

Please, stop this kind of misogynist thinking. …

With God’s Love,
Jane

It’s not misogynistic to say some sisters - or even many - are/were foolish, stupid or no longer Catholic; it’s the truth. It is misanthropic to say men forced women to do things they didn’t force them to do at all (see you own comment above). Look in the mirror, Sister.

The many sisters serving the poor are not the target of the Vatican review except maybe to see what they are doing. The barrage of complaints to Rome about the crazy, New Age, Heretical Anti-Catholic nuns who populate so many orders, probably is, however!

 

[Elizabeth502]

Perhaps you all are not aware of this, but back in the day, out of blind obedience, women religious were forced by their leaders to teach school. Many of these women lacked any actual education training.

They had no clue what the stated mission of the Order was? No one told them, and they had no ability to read? That’s odd.

I know I certainly wouldn’t want a sister teaching my children if she a) she didn’t have the training to be a teacher b) she didn’t want to be a teacher, c) she did not feel called to teach. And yet that is what they were forced to do for decades by parish priests

Some of us are not fooled. We were taught by some of the same sisters, and beautifully taught (Oh – their gifts were merely temporary?) – by those who now claim they “never had a vocation to teach,” “hate teaching,” “were forced to teach,” etc. As a teacher myself, I know plenty about teaching to recognize who the genuine and non-genuine teachers are. When entire Orders abandon teaching (despite the stated, original purpose of that Order), on the claim that they “really belong” in a generalized social service role, it just stretches credibility.

Isn’t a sister who does a great job helping the poor on the far South Side of Chicago a better witness to God’s love and the Catholic faith…?

No, actually. The sister who is a good witness is the one who combines her talents (after proper discernment prior to entrance) with the most urgent needs in the community and Community in which she serves. This defines service: a willingness to use your gifts where they are most urgently needed. There are way too many Catholic lay and religious combined in secularly oriented social work than there are faithful Catholic lay & religious working in more urgently needed educational settings, where non-Catholics cannot work as effectively. That is the entire point.

They work for the poor without stopping

Then they should have joined an Order for the poor. There have been plenty of those throughout the history of Orders.

they are on the front lines of civil rights movements

If they feel inspired to add their own witness to the millions of lay people who witnessed and do witness to that, I’m sure no one has any problem with that concept. But I’m sorry, political expression is not a full-time job – in or out of the Church, unless one is a politician by profession, a political organizer, etc.

 

[SunnaB16]

To send these sisters back to convents to pray for all of us (which they are doing for us anyway, even if they are not cloistered, they still pray) or to send them only to teaching and hospital jobs, especially when so many parishes don’t have the priests to do the work they used to do in the parish seems so very short sighted and so out of touch with today’s reality.

Do any of you who criticize these women actually know any of these sisters you brand as liberal?

Some nuns arent praying to God, though. The Object of their homage isnt very nice.

A certain nun who writes for the NCR is a good example of far Left of liberal.
Another nun worked with a priest to push for acceptance of the so called “gay” lifestyle.
etc etc etc.
“Non Serviam” seems to be common in too many places.

Donna Steichen`s book: “Ungodly Rage: the Hidden Face of Catholic Feminism” is a tale of horror re many off the rails nuns, among others.

 

[BobCatholic]

“Blind obedience” to the Catholic Church…BAD.
“Blind obedience” to the mirror…GOOD!

OK, I see what the pattern is.

 

[RobbyS]

She is a serious scripture scholar who has contributed a fair amount to New Testament theology. Beyond that, I will not contribute to any harming of her reputation. I did not mean to open this thread with such lack of charity in mind, and I’m sorry if I have contributed to any. I meant the discussion to focus on the regrettable detours that so many otherwise gifted religious have chosen. (This has been discussed on other threads as well.) It was not meant as a focus on her, truly, but on her words which I bolded, as emblematic of a state of mind shared by many religious – by their own acknowledgement.

Corki, I’ll find that link.

Scriptural study–academic study-- is dangerous to the spiritual help. It presupposes the possibility of being a part of the Church and yet outside of it. At least that is what took Loisy out of the Church.

 

[Elizabeth502]

Scriptural study–academic study-- is dangerous to the spiritual help. It presupposes the possibility of being a part of the Church and yet outside of it. At least that is what took Loisy out of the Church.

I’m sorry to be so blunt, but you actually don’t know what you’re talking about. Scripture study is in no way “dangerous.” It’s just that we as Catholics do not rely on an academic approach alone to scripture. We combine academics (if we are academic by profession) with a prayerful and prayerfully informed approach.

So I’ll say it again, I do respect Schneiders and anyone else – for that matter of any religious affiliation – who has made a serious and credible intellectual contribution to the understanding of scripture, both Hebrew bible and Christian bible. Conclusions of all contributors are up for debate, but their contributions are nonetheless valuable to the full discussion.

 

[estesbob]

(Imagine)

I very much respect her as an academic, but the notion that it is somehow radical and objectionable for vowed religious to serve a spiritually hungry laity is off, i.m.o.

And as to obedience, well that’s one of the three vows, actually.

It is a good thing that Mary and Jesus did not have a problem with obedience.

 

[pnewton]

Catholics are encouraged to study the Scripture. There is nothing dangerous at all about it. If anyone doubts, check the Catechsim and find where if it speaks of the danger of Scripture, or the benefit.