Religious Freedom not part of the Catholic Faith until 1963

[KofC660]

From Pope John XXIII Encyclical Pacem in Terris:

Also among man’s rights is that of being able to worship God in accordance with the right dictates of his own conscience, and to profess his religion both in private and in public.

Until this point, the Catholic Church NEVER recognized man’s “right” “to worship God in accordance…of his own conscience”.

Until people realize that the Faith doesn’t teach humanistic rights, and start teaching their children that the Faith is not a humanistic organization, the Catholic Church will continue to teeter and sink into the abyss of the world.

Whether you are a “humanist” worshiping at a Novus Ordo Mass or a humanist worshiping at a Vetus Ordo Mass, you still aren’t a “Catholic”.

 

[demerzel85]

Hmm… but ever since God made man, man has always been free to worship God or not to worship God. Even in terms of conversion, cannot ever be forced onto anyone. Yet since baptism is an indelible mark, a Christian can never cease to be Christian. He may however still choose to fall into heresy.

 

[KofC660]

Hmm… but ever since God made man, man has always been free to worship God or not to worship God. Even in terms of conversion, cannot ever be forced onto anyone. Yet since baptism is an indelible mark, a Christian can never cease to be Christian. He may however still choose to fall into heresy.

This is not about the concept of “free will”.

This is about the concept of “natural rights”, as the humanists call them.

The Church teaches that the religious “natural right” of mankind is to worship God as prescribed by the Catholic Faith, and no other.

Modern humanism, and this encyclical by Pope John XXIII states that man’s religious “natural right” is to worship God as his conscience deems fit.

Catholicism isn’t a modern humanistic philosophy, it’s quite the opposite.

 

[demerzel85]

Modern humanism, and this encyclical by Pope John XXIII states that man’s religious “natural right” is to worship God as his conscience deems fit.

And there is still no point in forcing man to do something he does not want.

 

[KofC660]

And there is still no point in forcing man to do something he does not want.

A woman doesn’t want to have a baby, so she gets an abortion.

By using your [humanistic] logic, that’s where you get.

Ideas have consequences.

 

[SyCarl]

You cannot force someone to worship God. We are to believe in Jesus. You can’t force someone to believe anything. The most you can do is make them say they believe.

 

[demerzel85]

A woman doesn’t want to have a baby, so she gets an abortion.

But that first would need to include the endorsement of sex just for pleasure and that that consequences of actions need not be borne.

If a woman does not want to have a baby, then of course the consummation of marriage is not engaged in during specific periods in her menstrual cycle.

 

[GregoryPalamas]

I think I understand K of C. I think you all are talking past each other. Surely a person can choose a life of sin and not worship God. However, if one is worshipping it isn’t because of their conscience, i.e., because of their free will. It is because God has established His Church through which we worship. In otherwords going fishing instead of going to Liturgy is not worship just because ones conscience may tell him it is. This may appear to be a fine distinction but I think it is a very important one.

CDL

 

[demerzel85]

We are to believe in Jesus.

Credo in unum Deum, Patrem omnipotentem, factorem caeli et terrae, visibilium omnium et invisibilium. … Et incarnatus est de Spiritu Sancto ex Maria Virgine, et homo factus est … Et unam, sanctam, catholicam et apostolicam Ecclesiam…

This is what we are to believe.

 

[KofC660]

You cannot force someone to worship God.

You also can not allow their decision to either be a Protestant or not worship God at all to be viewed as “normal”.

What the Church believes is that the government has the right to limit non-Catholic worship as it deems necessary for the good of the people. The Church, traditionally, does not believe people have a “right” to be heretics, atheists, and apostates in public. What they believe, the Church can not control, but what they do should be.

 

[Traditionaldan]

K of C would seem to be 100% correct.If you believe “De Fide” pronouncements, that is.
read the Papal encyclical “Libertas Praestantissimum” by Pope LeoXIII
Clarification regarding the appearingly contradictory staments made in the Vatican Documents on Religious Liberty will be necessary.
So far Pope Benedict has cleared a few major hurdles and if this last hurdle is cleared, expect full reconsiliation with disaffected Catholics.
Oh and for the rest of the world who are used to soft peddling of Catholic doctrines, I ask?
What have been the fruits of the soft-peddling?
Are more converts coming in or leaving? Just look at the site we are posting on if you are uncertain! Look at the “millions leaving the Church in Latin America”.
Just give me the Truth, the whole Truth and nothing but the Truth.

 

[demerzel85]

You also can not allow their decision to either be a Protestant or not worship God at all to be viewed as “normal”.

Yes not worshiping God is abnormal. But one can choose to be abnormal and fall into sin. Nevertheless it is the duty of the Church to remain the beacon of truth.

The Church, traditionally, does not believe people have a “right” to be heretics, atheists, and apostates in public.

Heresy, Apostasy, etc does not have any rights, but people still do.

 

[TraditionalCath]

A woman doesn’t want to have a baby, so she gets an abortion.

By using your [humanistic] logic, that’s where you get.

Ideas have consequences.

The commandments also forbid an abortion. thou shalt not kill. your logic here is flawed. you might try to use the so called logic, " that’s where you get" but that is wrong. God commanded us not to kill. taking the life of an unborn baby is murder. Logic dictates that if God says thou shalt not kill, then thou shalt not kill. period. ideas do have consequences. if God commands us not to kill then those commands have consequences if you do not listen to what He says.

The Church says that abortion is wrong and it is murder. this is inline with what God says, thou shalt not kill. so again, your “logic” is flawed. Blessed John XXIII never said that women ought to go and have an abortion either did he? No. he would never condone such a thing. nor would he put it inline with “humanism” either.

 

[demerzel85]

Just give me the Truth, the whole Truth and nothing but the Truth.

Oremus pro Pontifice nostro Benedicto
Dominus conservet eum, et vivificet eum, et beatum faciat eum in terra, et non tradat eum in animam inimicorum eius.

 

[KofC660]

but people still do [have rights to be a heretics].

Absolutely not.

You have fallen into the trap of natural humanism.

The Church has declared that people have no “rights” to be heretics or apostates or atheists, etc.

God has given you the free will to choose to worship in a Catholic way, or to worship in an erroneous way. But God has not given you a freedom to worship, in general. That “freedom” was given to you by natural humanistic governments, such as the one that currently rules over the United States.

 

[TraditionalCath]

Absolutely not.

You have fallen into the trap of natural humanism.

The Church has declared that people have no “rights” to be heretics or apostates or atheists, etc.

God has given you the free will to choose to worship in a Catholic way, or to worship in an erroneous way. But God has not given you a freedom to worship, in general. That “freedom” was given to you by natural humanistic governments, such as the one that currently rules over the United States.

Not true. God gave man free will. He never told us that we are robotic or automatons did He? no. He never said that we had to worship Him did He? no. He gave man free will and we chose to either worship God or not. He never orders us to worship Him.

Where in the bible does it state that He orders us to worship Him?
Do this or else? lets see. point it out. where does HE state we are FORCED to worship Him?

 

[KofC660]

The commandments also forbid an abortion. thou shalt not kill. your logic here is flawed. you might try to use the so called logic, " that’s where you get" but that is wrong. God commanded us not to kill. taking the life of an unborn baby is murder. Logic dictates that if God says thou shalt not kill, then thou shalt not kill. period. ideas do have consequences. if God commands us not to kill then those commands have consequences if you do not listen to what He says.

The Church says that abortion is wrong and it is murder. this is inline with what God says, thou shalt not kill. so again, your “logic” is flawed. Blessed John XXIII never said that women ought to go and have an abortion either did he? No. he would never condone such a thing. nor would he put it inline with “humanism” either.

It’s telling that a person that describes themselves as a “Traditional Catholic” would misunderstand a traditional Catholic belief: that God created us with free will, but did not create us to be “free”.

Humanistic philosophies give us the idea that killing is wrong because it infringes upon someone else’s freedom (freedom to live), not because God tells us it is wrong.

Just as humanistic philosophies tells us that people are “free” to worship God (or not) as their conscience deems proper, whereas God tells us (as Catholics) the only way people should worship Him is by ways the Church deems fit.

 

[SyCarl]

Absolutely not.

You have fallen into the trap of natural humanism.

The Church has declared that people have no “rights” to be heretics or apostates or atheists, etc.

God has given you the free will to choose to worship in a Catholic way, or to worship in an erroneous way. But God has not given you a freedom to worship, in general. That “freedom” was given to you by natural humanistic governments, such as the one that currently rules over the United States.

Well hopefully the Roman Catholic Church will never be in a position to force its opinion on people again. I bet you would like to see the Inquisition restarted.

 

[TraditionalCath]

It’s telling that a person that describes themselves as a “Traditional Catholic” would misunderstand a traditional Catholic belief: that God created us with free will, but did not create us to be “free”.

Humanistic philosophies give us the idea that killing is wrong because it infringes upon someone else’s freedom (freedom to live), not because God tells us it is wrong.

Just as humanistic philosophies tells us that people are “free” to worship God (or not) as their conscience deems proper, whereas God tells us (as Catholics) the only way people should worship Him is by ways the Church deems fit.

He did not create us to be free? How so? and please, don’t go after my name. i don’t appreciate it. Iam a traditional Catholic. period. just because iam not fluent in all the teachings of the church does not make me any less of a Catholic, traditional or not. so please, don’t play on my name. thank you.

 

[KofC660]

Not true. God gave man free will. He never told us that we are robotic or automatons did He? no. He never said that we had to worship Him did He? no. He gave man free will and we chose to either worship God or not. He never orders us to worship Him.

Where in the bible does it state that He orders us to worship Him?
Do this or else? lets see. point it out. where does HE state we are FORCED to worship Him?

Try reading my posts.

I never stated God forces anyone to worship Him, I stated that the only worship God accepts is the worship in the “Catholic way”.

Once again, God gives man free will, man is free to worship Him, in any way man wants, or even not at all.

However, God does not accept all forms of worship (see: Cain and Abel).

The Church says that man is not “free” to worship in any other way than the “Catholic way”, and that the state has the right to prohibit ways of worship that are not Catholic.