Religious Freedom not part of the Catholic Faith until 1963

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KofC660 said:
A “heretic” can’t be a pope, but I’m convinced that Benedict XVI is no “heretic”, despite committing an act of heresy by worshiping with Mohammedans.

No, I’m no sede vacantist.

I admire all of the “modern” popes (post-Pius XII), despite their problems. It’s been a problematic 50+ years, that the Church has managed to make it this far is a testament to the strengths of the men in charge, despite their weaknesses.
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Has either Pope retracted what they did?
Can. 1364 §1. Without prejudice to the prescript of ⇒ can. 194, §1, n. 2, an apostate from the faith, a heretic, or a schismatic incurs a latae sententiae excommunication; in addition, a cleric can be punished with the penalties mentioned in ⇒ can. 1336, §1, nn. 1, 2, and 3.
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vatican.va/archive/ENG1104/_P52.HTM#15
 
KofC660 said:
Praying, at the minimum, which is what Benedict XVI did, according to what I’ve read.
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So stand beside a Muslim while he is praying and adopting some of his gestures while praying silently for his or her conversion together with lets say the Pater Noster would be…
 
TraditionalCath said:
who are YOU to judge what the pope did as an act of heresy? who ARE you to say he did? you have NO right to state he commited an act of heresy!! that is NOT for you to decide!!! your not his judge!!!
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But first lets get down to the definition of ‘worship with’
 
demerzel85 said:
Well lets see the definition of ‘worship with’ and see if there was even a reasoned judgment or a baseless accusation.
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here is the definition of worship with, To regard with ardent or adoring esteem or devotion. To perform an act of worship. To honor and love as a deity.

so its a baseless accusation!!!
 
GregoryPalamas said:
I think I understand K of C. I think you all are talking past each other. Surely a person can choose a life of sin and not worship God. However, if one is worshipping it isn’t because of their conscience, i.e., because of their free will. It is because God has established His Church through which we worship. In otherwords going fishing instead of going to Liturgy is not worship just because ones conscience may tell him it is. This may appear to be a fine distinction but I think it is a very important one.

CDL
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Agreed since a conscience can be deformed in the first place.
 
TraditionalCath said:
here is the definition of worship with, To regard with ardent or adoring esteem or devotion. To perform an act of worship. To honor and love as a deity.

so its a baseless accusation!!!
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Lets have the accuser explain the definition 😉
 
I can’t believe this devolved into the heresies of Pope Benedict XVI (well, actually I can).

Pope Benedict went to a museum that used to be a mosque that used to be a Christian church (Hagia Sophia).

There he said some prayer to himself, with a Turkish Mohammedan standing next to him, praying from the Koran.

If Benedict XVI wasn’t praying with the Mohammedan, and the Mohammedan was simply praying NEXT TO Pope Benedict XVI, I doubt that would be considered heresy.

The theory is that they were praying together - that IS heresy, according to traditional Catholicism.

It was a mistake for Pope Benedict to walk into a place that used to be a mosque with Mohammedans - he should have visited the Hagia Sophia with only the Patriarch of Constantinople - not that the Turkish government would have ever allowed that!
 
KofC660 said:
I can’t believe this devolved into the heresies of Pope Benedict XVI (well, actually I can).

Pope Benedict went to a museum that used to be a mosque that used to be a Christian church (Hagia Sophia).

There he said some prayer to himself, with a Turkish Mohammedan standing next to him, praying from the Koran.

If Benedict XVI wasn’t praying with the Mohammedan, and the Mohammedan was simply praying NEXT TO Pope Benedict XVI, I doubt that would be considered heresy.

The theory is that they were praying together - that IS heresy, according to traditional Catholicism.

It was a mistake for Pope Benedict to walk into a place that used to be a mosque with Mohammedans - he should have visited the Hagia Sophia with only the Patriarch of Constantinople - not that the Turkish government would have ever allowed that!
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I watched the Divine Liturgy before that live and saw the news clips from EWTN slightly after the event. Saw the photographs of it happening.

But what constitutes ‘praying together’.
 
KofC660 said:
I can’t believe this devolved into the heresies of Pope Benedict XVI (well, actually I can).

Pope Benedict went to a museum that used to be a mosque that used to be a Christian church (Hagia Sophia).

There he said some prayer to himself, with a Turkish Mohammedan standing next to him, praying from the Koran.

If Benedict XVI wasn’t praying with the Mohammedan, and the Mohammedan was simply praying NEXT TO Pope Benedict XVI, I doubt that would be considered heresy.

The theory is that they were praying together - that IS heresy, according to traditional Catholicism.

It was a mistake for Pope Benedict to walk into a place that used to be a mosque with Mohammedans - he should have visited the Hagia Sophia with only the Patriarch of Constantinople - not that the Turkish government would have ever allowed that!
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i got your dig at me with the word traditional inserted there. how convenient:rolleyes: so its an act of heresy to have a person of a different faith stand next to you while you pray? i see. :rolleyes:

if you were in an islamic country, and you were standing next to a muslim, you would then be considered a heretic then for praying next to him just because you happened to be standing next to him?:rolleyes: uh huh. yeah right.

so i must commit alot of acts of heresy then because our city is full of people of different faiths and i happen to have my rosary in hand and say my prayers when iam in public and there are muslims standing next to me at a bus stop! oh the scandal! oh iam a heretic then!!! oh the scandal!! how dare i pray whilst standing next to a muslim!! oh scandalllll!!!

come on get real!!! Benedict did NOT commit heresy!!! get real!!!
your not a canon lawyer, and you are not to accuse him of commiting an act of heresy, you are not his judge and you have no authority over him.
 
demerzel85 said:
I watched the Divine Liturgy before that live and saw the news clips from EWTN slightly after the event. Saw the photographs of it happening.

But what constitutes ‘praying together’.
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Being next to, gesturing, and facing the same way.

The pope should have turned around, walked away, and blessed himself with the Sign of the Cross.

The fact that Benedict XVI just kind of stood there, and gestured like a Mohammedan was enough to put himself in a condition of heresy.
 
KofC660 said:
Being next to, gesturing, and facing the same way.

The pope should have turned around, walked away, and blessed himself with the Sign of the Cross.

The fact that Benedict XVI just kind of stood there, and gestured like a Mohammedan was enough to put himself in a condition of heresy.
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UTTER hogwash!!!:mad:
 
TraditionalCath said:
i got your dig at me with the word traditional inserted there. how convenient:rolleyes: so its an act of heresy to have a person of a different faith stand next to you while you pray? i see. :rolleyes:

if you were in an islamic country, and you were standing next to a muslim, you would then be considered a heretic then for praying next to him just because you happened to be standing next to him?:rolleyes: uh huh. yeah right.

so i must commit alot of acts of heresy then because our city is full of people of different faiths and i happen to have my rosary in hand and say my prayers when iam in public and there are muslims standing next to me at a bus stop! oh the scandal! oh iam a heretic then!!! oh the scandal!! how dare i pray whilst standing next to a muslim!! oh scandalllll!!!

come on get real!!! Benedict did NOT commit heresy!!! get real!!!
your not a canon lawyer, and you are not to accuse him of commiting an act of heresy, you are not his judge and you have no authority over him.
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Simply praying your beads while sitting next to a Mohammedan on the bus who is praying to Allah or Mohamet or whatever is no act of heresy.
 
KofC660 said:
Simply praying your beads while sitting next to a Mohammedan on the bus who is praying to Allah or Mohamet or whatever is no act of heresy.
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i see. so what then constitutes benedict commiting heresy then whilst standing next to a muslim? hmm huh hmm? iam NOT buying your garbage.:mad: what makes you think the muslims who stood next to me were not praying to allah? i must be a heretic then if i was praying at the same time they were. i think your accusing him of heresy because he was in a mosque correct?
 
KofC660 said:
Being next to, gesturing, and facing the same way.

The pope should have turned around, walked away, and blessed himself with the Sign of the Cross.

The fact that Benedict XVI just kind of stood there, and gestured like a Mohammedan was enough to put himself in a condition of heresy.
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So using the conditions set forth… stand beside a Muslim while he is praying and adopting some of his gestures while praying silently for his or her conversion together with lets say the Pater Noster would be an act of heresy?

And in the first place one does not know what exactly the Holy Father prayed.
 
demerzel85 said:
And in the first place one does not know what exactly the Holy Father prayed.
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exactly! oh an d one other thing k of c, if a muslim leader made the sign of the cross in a Catholic church, or in the Vatican, would you accuse him of heresy?
 
TraditionalCath said:
i see. so what then constitutes benedict commiting heresy then whilst standing next to a muslim? hmm huh hmm? iam NOT buying your garbage.:mad: what makes you think the muslims who stood next to me were not praying to allah?
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You riding the bus isn’t the same as the pope going to a museum that used to be a mosque that used to be a Catholic church.

Like I said, it was Benedict XVI that put himself in the situation to commit heresy, he wasn’t necessarily an “active participant”, but he never should have put himself in that position to begin with. He should have insisted to go there with ONLY the Patriarch of Constantinople! If the pope insisted to go, and if the Turkish government insisted that he be accompanied by Mohammedans, the pope should have walked away from them when they started to pray to Mohamet and Allah.

It was a mistake, but I didn’t lose any sleep over it, and I doubt His Holiness did either.
 
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