Religious freedom

[camkutz]

Not sure if this is the right thread but I’m doing an essay on the importance to study religious freedom and I need a well-balanced argument!
I’ve mentioned the basic human right stuff and what-not but I have no idea where to go next any brainstorming ideas?

 

[wmscott]

Not sure if this is the right thread but I’m doing an essay on the importance to study religious freedom and I need a well-balanced argument!
I’ve mentioned the basic human right stuff and what-not but I have no idea where to go next any brainstorming ideas?

One angel can be how secular society in America stifles Christianity, in the schools, in the courtroom, in the town square, in workplace, in healthcare, and so on. Yet society being PC lets Islam permeate throughout these. Just some thoughts

 

[KnowtheSilence]

One angel can be how secular society in America stifles Christianity, in the schools, in the courtroom, in the town square, in workplace, in healthcare, and so on. Yet society being PC lets Islam permeate throughout these. Just some thoughts

Examples would be great.

This actually is a good example of why it’s important to study the history of these issues and the paths we’ve taken to get where we are today. It’s common to hear about how the mean ol’ atheists and secularists got the Bible taken out of schools, but if you look back to protests lead by Catholics in the mid-1800’s against Bible readings in the public schools, it can help understand why secularists are against things like teacher-lead prayer, and how this opposition actually leads to religious freedom (although it can be misunderstood and taken too far).

 

[arthra]

Not sure if this is the right thread but I’m doing an essay on the importance to study religious freedom and I need a well-balanced argument!
I’ve mentioned the basic human right stuff and what-not but I have no idea where to go next any brainstorming ideas?

The theme of religious freedom is such a vast topic… If I were you I think I would seek examples in history where the state/ecclesiastical order oppressed people and used political power to silence, control and in some cases execute those with minority views.

Replete examples of persecution can be found in Russia… old Soviet Union… Iran after the Islamic Revolution and other cases maybe as far back as the reformation … and earlier.

 

[wmscott]

Examples would be great.

This actually is a good example of why it’s important to study the history of these issues and the paths we’ve taken to get where we are today. It’s common to hear about how the mean ol’ atheists and secularists got the Bible taken out of schools, but if you look back to protests lead by Catholics in the mid-1800’s against Bible readings in the public schools, it can help understand why secularists are against things like teacher-lead prayer, and how this opposition actually leads to religious freedom (although it can be misunderstood and taken too far).

The OP asked for ideas regarding religious Freedom, I provided several ideas where religious freedom has been attacked or stifled. All of these are easily found by doing a little research on the internet. As for the examples I am sure you know full well what they are, the OP asked for ideas, I just gave them what I thought would be a good starting point.

 

[Michael68]

Maybe another angle could be how in societies with Religious Freedom, Religions can become competitive in seeking followers.

 

[LutheranScholar]

Maybe another angle could be how in societies with Religious Freedom, Religions can become competitive in seeking followers.

Surely not! Of course, religious competition truly is a vital expression of religious freedom. People are free to choose which institutions to use for the purposes of worship and service, the institutions know this and they carry out apologetics campaigns to rake in as many followers as they can. In doing this, it’s almost imperative that they discredit alternative religious institutions to ensure that the devotion ( and some income) they garnish remains directed to them. Of course, this is true of most of the conservative religious institutions whose doctrines are by their very nature exclusive of those outside their beliefs.

It’s religious freedom, though and that means that people should be free to pursue and practice their faith as they see fit and are directed to by their spiritual leaders. When this intrudes on the secular realm, conflicts will erupt ( say, like a lesbian pair suing a faith- based baking company for failing to violate their religious tenets by refusing to bake a cake for a homosexual joining ceremony and then being hounded out of business by an outraged liberal public) with consequences for the believers.

 

[Michael68]

Surely not! Of course, religious competition truly is a vital expression of religious freedom. People are free to choose which institutions to use for the purposes of worship and service, the institutions know this and they carry out apologetics campaigns to rake in as many followers as they can. In doing this, it’s almost imperative that they discredit alternative religious institutions to ensure that the devotion ( and some income) they garnish remains directed to them. Of course, this is true of most of the conservative religious institutions whose doctrines are by their very nature exclusive of those outside their beliefs.

It’s religious freedom, though and that means that people should be free to pursue and practice their faith as they see fit and are directed to by their spiritual leaders. When this intrudes on the secular realm, conflicts will erupt ( say, like a lesbian pair suing a faith- based baking company for failing to violate their religious tenets by refusing to bake a cake for a homosexual joining ceremony and then being hounded out of business by an outraged liberal public) with consequences for the believers.

Well put! I think your points should be put into the essay

 

[Peter_J]

Examples would be great.

This actually is a good example of why it’s important to study the history of these issues and the paths we’ve taken to get where we are today. It’s common to hear about how the mean ol’ atheists and secularists got the Bible taken out of schools, but if you look back to protests lead by Catholics in the mid-1800’s against Bible readings in the public schools, it can help understand why secularists are against things like teacher-lead prayer, and how this opposition actually leads to religious freedom (although it can be misunderstood and taken too far).

I have two things to say on that:

1. 
   *]The bible is central to th Christian religion
   *]Catholics are Christians

 

[LutheranScholar]

Well put! I think your points should be put into the essay

Thank you, Michael68! :tiphat: I would like to add that in the spirit of religious freedom, people are well advised to study the religion that they are ( or would like to become) involved with currently, look at the arguments that they present and also study the claims made by other religious institutions so that if their choices are ever challenged, they would have a solid base of knowledge from which they can present arguments supporting their own views.

Conversions are the best and most obvious statements of religious freedom ( people are free to change their minds without being punished for it by society, although their families and friends may make their choices difficult to make, all the same) and evangelization is the most basic form that religious competition makes. Counter- evangelization is a way that religious institutions keep people in their own systems, again, a healthy and necessary expression of religious freedom.

 

[KnowtheSilence]

I have two things to say on that:

1. 
   *]The bible is central to th Christian religion
   *]Catholics are Christians

1. 
   Both undeniably true. Still, there was a brouhaha in Cincinnati in the 1860’s regarding the removal of Bible readings in public schools because they used the King James Version.

 

[TheAtheist]

Both undeniably true. Still, there was a brouhaha in Cincinnati in the 1860’s regarding the removal of Bible readings in public schools because they used the King James Version.

If this is going to be brought up as a point of argument, it would behoove us all to do a little research no?

patheos.com/blogs/warrenthrockmorton/2011/05/04/the-cincinnati-bible-wars-when-the-bible-was-removed-from-schools/

From a more legal/constitutional law sort of perspective:

magazine.uc.edu/issues/0404/bible.html

…which incidentally places this particular uproar in Cincinnati as the beginning of secularization in schools based purely on the notion that Catholic children shouldn’t be arbitrarily subjected to the King James version of the Bible with accompanying Protestant notions by the State.

Otherwise the State would be essentially condoning Protestantism. Which would be a form of abuse.

 

[TheAtheist]

Not sure if this is the right thread but I’m doing an essay on the importance to study religious freedom and I need a well-balanced argument!
I’ve mentioned the basic human right stuff and what-not but I have no idea where to go next any brainstorming ideas?

My advice for you - try to reach out to either one of these two members on CAF

meltzerboy is a religious studies instructor who actually teaches at a Catholic institution in New York City i believe. I have no doubt that he can give a nuanced understanding of the pitfalls and positives regarding the issue of religious freedom as well as its effect on inter-religious issues (he is a practicing Jew).

contarini aka Prof. Edwin Tate is a Church historian and practicing episcopalian (although he has been dancing around a conversion to you Catholics for a while now). He’s probably one of the most informed persons to frequent this board when it comes to matters of your religion and its interaction with the wider world.

A warning though - be prepared for a torrent of information from him. He is a well of knowledge that never runs dry it seems.

Good luck with your studies.

 

[Pulvis]

Here is the Southern Baptist Convention take:

XVII. Religious Liberty

God alone is Lord of the conscience, and He has left it free from the doctrines and commandments of men which are contrary to His Word or not contained in it. Church and state should be separate. The state owes to every church protection and full freedom in the pursuit of its spiritual ends. In providing for such freedom no ecclesiastical group or denomination should be favored by the state more than others. Civil government being ordained of God, it is the duty of Christians to render loyal obedience thereto in all things not contrary to the revealed will of God. The church should not resort to the civil power to carry on its work. The gospel of Christ contemplates spiritual means alone for the pursuit of its ends. The state has no right to impose penalties for religious opinions of any kind. The state has no right to impose taxes for the support of any form of religion. A free church in a free state is the Christian ideal, and this implies the right of free and unhindered access to God on the part of all men, and the right to form and propagate opinions in the sphere of religion without interference by the civil power.

Genesis 1:27; 2:7; Matthew 6:6-7,24; 16:26; 22:21; John 8:36; Acts 4:19-20; Romans 6:1-2; 13:1-7; Galatians 5:1,13; Philippians 3:20; 1 Timothy 2:1-2; James 4:12; 1 Peter 2:12-17; 3:11-17; 4:12-19.

sbc.net/bfm2000/bfm2000.asp

As an aside, this is why i feel Churches should disavow tax exempt status. It gives the government leverage.

 

[Peter_J]

Both undeniably true. Still, there was a brouhaha in Cincinnati in the 1860’s regarding the removal of Bible readings in public schools because they used the King James Version.

You can’t see me holding up my hands in the “warding off vampires” stance.

I feel like I should follow that with But seriously … but I just can’t even take this argument seriously. Seriously.

 

[Peter_J]

…which incidentally places this particular uproar in Cincinnati as the beginning of secularization in schools based purely on the notion that Catholic children shouldn’t be arbitrarily subjected to the King James version of the Bible with accompanying Protestant notions by the State.

Otherwise the State would be essentially condoning Protestantism. Which would be a form of abuse.

But seriously, I think the outcry against the KJ translation being forced on children, or whatever, just goes to show that Catholics are not 100% immune to silliness.

At the same time, though, I hope this discussion will go far … I agree with you that indoctrinating a “captive audience” is problematic.

 

[Sy_Noe]

It’s religious freedom, though and that means that people should be free to pursue and practice their faith as they see fit and are directed to by their spiritual leaders.

Does this include people whose faith allows women a legal right to an abortion in at least some cases? Right now Catholic women and others can choose to follow the dictates of their faith and not abort. And women whose faiths allow at least some degree of choice, can follow the dictates of their faith communities. But make abortion illegal and a whole lot of women of faith lose their liberty to follow their faiths. The same goes for marriage equality. Right now the Catholic Church and other faith communities do not have to perform a marriage ceremony for a monogamous loving same gender couple. But if for instance the UCC, TEC, PCUSA, ELCA, and UU faith communities wish to, they can.

 

[LutheranScholar]

Does this include people whose faith allows women a legal right to an abortion in at least some cases? Right now Catholic women and others can choose to follow the dictates of their faith and not abort. And women whose faiths allow at least some degree of choice, can follow the dictates of their faith communities. But make abortion illegal and a whole lot of women of faith lose their liberty to follow their faiths. The same goes for marriage equality. Right now the Catholic Church and other faith communities do not have to perform a marriage ceremony for a monogamous loving same gender couple. But if for instance the UCC, TEC, PCUSA, ELCA, and UU faith communities wish to, they can.

Never an easy question, but I’ll answer it. To stick to the letter, yes, it does. I might feel that abortion is nothing less than murder, but that doesn’t give me the right to interfere in another’s decision to abort a child that she might feel is an incompletely formed fetus.

I might feel homosexual " marriage" is an abomination, but I keep that opinion private when at work, because there are religious bodies that sanction such ceremonies. Religious freedom applies to everybody, not just me and not only freedom of religion, but freedom from religion. Everyone has an equal right to obey the dictates of their conscience. That’s just how it is in the world. I was taught that there is a wall of separation between church and state and that wall needs to stay up, particularly in this country, where so many religious groups coexist.

 

[Sy_Noe]

Never an easy question, but I’ll answer it. To stick to the letter, yes, it does. I might feel that abortion is nothing less than murder, but that doesn’t give me the right to interfere in another’s decision to abort a child that she might feel is an incompletely formed fetus.

I might feel homosexual " marriage" is an abomination, but I keep that opinion private when at work, because there are religious bodies that sanction such ceremonies. Religious freedom applies to everybody, not just me and not only freedom of religion, but freedom from religion. Everyone has an equal right to obey the dictates of their conscience. That’s just how it is in the world. I was taught that there is a wall of separation between church and state and that wall needs to stay up, particularly in this country, where so many religious groups coexist.

Thank you for answering.

 

[LutheranScholar]

Thank you for answering.

You’re welcome! Always happy to voice an opinion.