Religious or Spiritual?

[Robert_in_SD]

mrs_abbott:

There’s a few reasons:
1.) Hypocrits run rampid in the Catholic Churches I’ve been to. I’ve yet to find one where the majority there are NOT hypocrits. I recently moved to a smaller town so I’m going to try that Church there. I know there are hypocrits EVERYWHERE and in EVERY religion but I’ve never seen so many as I have in the Catholic Church.
2.) I’m having issues with the whole contraception thing. I am married and am currently talking to several priests I know about it. Each one of them has given me a slightly different answer. Hence why I kinda feel in limbo on the whole thing. I need to get this answered before I can receive the Eucharist and participate again.
3.) Scandals within the Church. I don’t know how many of them are true or not but it really takes a toll on how I feel about priests, as a whole. I know there’s bad apples EVERYWHERE but your Church and your Religion are part of your existence and you need stability with that.

I know these are MY reasons and I’m not expecting everyone to agree. I was just sharing.

Many people share your concerns. Again, let me offer my (name removed by moderator)ut:

(1) Hypocracy - There are hypocrites everywhere. The Catholic Church does not hold a monopoly on the practice. But nothing in the doctrines or practices of the church leads to hypocracy, nor does the practice of Catholicism necessarily lead one into hypocracy. Hypocracy arises from an individual’s decision to live a life in conflict with what the Church teaches, for reasons of their own. There are many who struggle along these lines. But we are all sinners to some degree. That, in a sense, makes us all “hypocrites.” But hypocracy present in others does not present a valid reason for leaving the Catholic Church.

(2) Issues with Contraception - Another common issue in the USA among Catholics. I’m sure that there are many priests who will soften the approach, while others will take a hard line. Ultimately, it is your own well informed consceience that is responsible. You should spend time studying the Church’s teachings on the matter, not just the doctrinal statements, but the reasoning behind the statements. Think and Pray about it. Talk with other Catholics about it - Catholics who know their faith. Read Church documents. Study the issue intellectually, rather than from an emotional “self-oriented” position. Perhaps you will grow in spirituality just by continuing to engage in the process.

(3) Scandals - Have always existed in the Church. Scandals exist in every institution that consists of human beings because human beings are prone to sin and weakness. The power and responsibility of the priesthood is great, so the abuse of that power is certainly harmful. It breaks my heart too, when I hear of priests that have succumbed to evil thoughts and have victimized the innocent and the powerless. These men should receive fair hearings and, if found guilty, removed and subjected to all approrpriate criminal, civil, and ecclesial sanctions. But, again, it is a matter of historical fact that these things will occur as long as human beings continue in their present nature. Yet, nothing in the doctrines or teachings of the church compels this outcome, so the fact that these tragedies do occur does not threaten my faith in God, nor does it weaken my commitment to His Church.

-Peace.

 

[Ahimsa]

mrs_abbott:

I know Catholicism is ALL or NONE.

I don’t see why you need to assume that Catholicism is “ALL or NONE”. What about “SOME” and “SOME More”??

 

[tjmiller]

Catholic: Greek, katholikos, from kata+holos; i.e., “according to the whole” - all (or nothing).

 

[Ahimsa]

tjmiller:

Catholic: Greek, katholikos, from kata+holos; i.e., “according to the whole” - all (or nothing).

“Ouden” is Greek for “nothing”. The “all or nothing” church would be the “Panoudenic” church.

The Catholic Church is the “according to the whole” church. The whole contains both some and some more.

 

[mrs_abbott]

Thank you. You helped put it in a better perspective for me. Until I read this, I thought I was alone.
I hope to get through this soon so that I can be a good Catholic not only for myself, but for my 14 month old son. I know he’s too little now to understand anything but one day I will need to be his role model and his good example.
Robert in SD:

Hello Mrs Abbott;

I had a period of time in my life where I saw the situation much like you describe. For a long while I went to church but received no emotional satisfaction from the experience. I felt only an obligation (not a longing) to attend mass, and there was no joy in the experience. I felt that I was a “spiritual” person, but there was little connection between my “spiritual” side and my participation in the sacraments. That all began to change when I was forced to confront some pretty outlandish anti-catholic claims written in a tract that was left on my car windshield. I began a long process of studying the roots of the Catholic faith, its history and its direct connection to God through Christ. This, for me reestalished the holiness, the sacredness, of the experience of mass and the other sacraments as well.

Perhaps familiarity is what caused me to become dulled to the beauty, the truly magnificent and awesome event that takes place in the mass. We as Catholics tend to lose our sense of wonder and awe because of the repetition involved with the mass and other sacraments. IMHO there is real danger in that sense of familiarity. We have to make an effort to approach the mass and the sacraments with a sense of wonder - a sense of awe that we have a God who took the form of a man to come here and give us these spiritual gifts. Not just the sacraments, but the Church itself - to each of us His children, because He loves us with a deep and never-ending love.

If you are trying to be more spiritual, try to recover that childlike (not childish) sense of awe and wonder. You will then see that there is no dichotomy between secular and holy, no distinction between “religious” and “spiritual.” God is everywhere. He is present in the Liturgy, present at work, present when you are at home doing the laundry.

My other thought on the matter of “spirituality” v. “religion” is that as the terms are commonly used, the idea is a false dichotomy. “Spirituality” to most people means a sense of “connectedness” to the presence of God in our life. Participation in Liturgy (i.e. what most people mean when they talk about “religion” in contradiction to “spirituality”) can be a rich part of one’s spirituality. I think what many are concerned of is the notion that one may come to believe that simply “going through the motions” can replace the living of a truly spiritual life. That is a danger, I agree, but it is not a necessary result of taking part in Liturgy. To the contrary, when properly understood and appreciated with the awe and wonder to which they are due, a life that is rich in the Liturgy of the Church allows one to grow in their spiritual life to a great degree. So, I reject the notion that one cannot be both “religious” and “spiritual.” Both should be a healthy part of one’s life.

Just my two cents. :twocents:

-Peace

 

[mrs_abbott]

I’m not assuming. That’s just what I was told by priests when I talk to them about my problem with the church.

Ahimsa:

I don’t see why you need to assume that Catholicism is “ALL or NONE”. What about “SOME” and “SOME More”??

 

[mrs_abbott]

I think I figured out my main problem. I don’t have a problem with the Catholic religion, I’m just having issues with the Church. I know that they go hand in hand to make the whole picture but that explains why I can’t seem to “latch on” to another religion. I’ve looked around and none of them have a ceremony of celebration or adoration like the Catholic Church.
I’m continuing my talks with priests ONLY because they are books of knowledge. I don’t like to stick with just one priest because I’ve discovered that they each have something slightly different to say.
Well, tomorrow is Sunday so I think I will attend church in the morning and just focus in on God and ask for strength and forgiveness. I’m going in with an open mind and trying to push those issues I mentioned earlier to the back of my mind.
I’ve been doing this about once a month, for starters, and see what God himself can do to help me.
Prayer is something I’m lacking and need to work on. If nothing else, I can start by praying for others. It’s easier to do that than to do it for myself.
Thanks for all of your advice, though. I’m just rambling on and on so I’m going to stop for now.
Basically I need to have “a little less talk and alot more action” in my life.
Robert in SD:

Many people share your concerns. Again, let me offer my (name removed by moderator)ut:

(1) Hypocracy - There are hypocrites everywhere. The Catholic Church does not hold a monopoly on the practice. But nothing in the doctrines or practices of the church leads to hypocracy, nor does the practice of Catholicism necessarily lead one into hypocracy. Hypocracy arises from an individual’s decision to live a life in conflict with what the Church teaches, for reasons of their own. There are many who struggle along these lines. But we are all sinners to some degree. That, in a sense, makes us all “hypocrites.” But hypocracy present in others does not present a valid reason for leaving the Catholic Church.

(2) Issues with Contraception - Another common issue in the USA among Catholics. I’m sure that there are many priests who will soften the approach, while others will take a hard line. Ultimately, it is your own well informed consceience that is responsible. You should spend time studying the Church’s teachings on the matter, not just the doctrinal statements, but the reasoning behind the statements. Think and Pray about it. Talk with other Catholics about it - Catholics who know their faith. Read Church documents. Study the issue intellectually, rather than from an emotional “self-oriented” position. Perhaps you will grow in spirituality just by continuing to engage in the process.

(3) Scandals - Have always existed in the Church. Scandals exist in every institution that consists of human beings because human beings are prone to sin and weakness. The power and responsibility of the priesthood is great, so the abuse of that power is certainly harmful. It breaks my heart too, when I hear of priests that have succumbed to evil thoughts and have victimized the innocent and the powerless. These men should receive fair hearings and, if found guilty, removed and subjected to all approrpriate criminal, civil, and ecclesial sanctions. But, again, it is a matter of historical fact that these things will occur as long as human beings continue in their present nature. Yet, nothing in the doctrines or teachings of the church compels this outcome, so the fact that these tragedies do occur does not threaten my faith in God, nor does it weaken my commitment to His Church.

-Peace.

 

[st.jerome]

mrs_abbott:

I’m not assuming. That’s just what I was told by priests when I talk to them about my problem with the church.

Not to second guess the priest too much, but the all or none approach is probably more important for the priest to reflect on than for most other people. The priest has to reflect Church teaching in word and deed and so, after taking the vows, he’s committed body and soul to his vocation. “Some and some more” seems to me to be a pretty good approach for the laity. The basics are Mass and Confession. If you’re comfortable with that, then you could proceed further. Or you could stay right there! Its an issue of faith to believe that a person receives Grace by attending Mass and Confession, but habits like this can greatly change a person’s life over time.

 

[mrs_abbott]

I thank you for your advice. I know everyone is trying to help and I’m grateful because sometimes it fells like nothing is going to change. Hearing about others who have felt this way at some point and time really helps and gives me hope.
Btw, thanks for not comparing me to “those clowns in Boulder”.

tjmiller:

Personally, if I had to pick one or the other, I would rather have religion without spirituality, than spirituality without religion.

At least with the Catholic Religion, I have Christ’s unfailing assurance of the fulness of divine truth and of the means of holiness and salvation - even if I don’t happen to be “spurchally into it” at some given moment.

Religion can provide a satisfying home for both the heart and the mind, while spirituality may be content to satisfy only the heart. Religion gives us community, while spirituality can be merely self-absorbed. Religion is stable, definite, dependable and objective. Mere spirituality is subjective, relative, fluctuate, and vague.

If one doesn’t stand up for something, one will fall for anything.

BTW, mrsabbott - please don’t think for a moment that I intended to compare you to those Clowns in Boulder. :whacky:
I was simply reflecting on my personal experience of some of the issues you raise. God bless your journey.

Fides quarens intellectum!

 

[mrs_abbott]

High and mighty Catholics, like yourself, are reasons why I would just rather have nothing to do with the church at all. You preach this and that like everyone should follow YOUR way.
Maybe it was a mistake talking in a forum environment because all I’ve received, with the exception of a few people, is scolding and how I’m not doing this and that right. I’m not asking for advice. I’m simply looking for open-minded people who have maybe once or twice thought “outside of the box” and can actually talk to me without quoting scripture like some dang scholar. Unless you’re part of the clergy, you have no right to lecture.
Tantum ergo:

How many other churches have you BEEN to, anyway?

Now, I don’t want to get too personal, but I’ve read your reasons, and quite honestly (just my opinion, and not to be critical, but only to state what I have simply DEDUCED from your posts), it appears to me that much of what you object to stems from your personal difficulties in some “hot button” topics. That being so, it would be only natural that you would be interested in finding out exactly what the Church teaches on those topics. That is excellent and I commend it.

But it is also natural that (considering that you at least disagree with some of these, and given the chance would disobey some or all of them, even if taught by the Church, if you felt you could “reasonably” do so), you would be looking for ways to discount the Church. Finding its members to be such “hypocrites” you might feel that you could safely discount the Church because if it were REALLY good, it wouldn’t allow its members to be such jerks. (Except, you know, Jesus Himself chose 12 apostles, and we all know that one of them–hey, that is over 8%!–betrayed him, and that of the remaining 11, 100% abandoned him at his trial. Yet, of those 11 HYPOCRITES, 10 of them–over 90%–were martyred for the man they betrayed, and the 1 who lived wrote a gospel and other sacred writings which have been TESTIMONY for the man he betrayed).

I wish that you would read C.S. Lewis’ “The Screwtape Letters”. He has a marvelous passage where the young man who has recently become a Christian starts to chafe about the “hypocrites” in his church, and wonder about them. . .never realizing that he himself, being no better than they, is the real hypocrite by thinking that he deserves “better fellow worshippers”.

P.S. May God forgive you for your uncharitable remark to me. I forgive you.

 

[mrs_abbott]

I like the “some and some more” theory better than all or none. All or none makes me feel like I’ll never be good enough or it’s wanting perfection and perfection isn’t possible.
I’m starting by trying to at least attend Mass more. I like to sit in the front because it minimizes my distractions and helps me focus on what’s going on in the Mass instead of who’s at Mass.
Confession will be the next step, when I’m ready and truly sorry.

st.jerome:

Not to second guess the priest too much, but the all or none approach is probably more important for the priest to reflect on than for most other people. The priest has to reflect Church teaching in word and deed and so, after taking the vows, he’s committed body and soul to his vocation. “Some and some more” seems to me to be a pretty good approach for the laity. The basics are Mass and Confession. If you’re comfortable with that, then you could proceed further. Or you could stay right there! Its an issue of faith to believe that a person receives Grace by attending Mass and Confession, but habits like this can greatly change a person’s life over time.

 

[Tantum_ergo]

Mrs. A:

I am sorry that you found my posts so challenging. I tried hard NOT to be “high and mighty”, but simply to be, I thought, caring (I commended you for your honesty and searching), and also interested in dialogue (I note that while you are attacking me on all sorts of false PERCEPTIONS you have of me you did not at all attempt either to agree or disagree with me, did not attempt to talk further, but simply are, yourself, scolding, or complaining about ME and really being quite unkind in your remarks, in my opinion.)

God bless you, because we are, believe it or not, on the same side. We are both people, both women, both mothers, both wanting to love
God, both struggling with how to do so. . .

We aren’t enemies, I am NOT trying to put you down, exalt myself, make you “feel bad” (I DO have feelings too ), I am NOT trying to be “uber Catholic” and I’m not trying to guilt you or force you in any way. . .

So can’t we PLEASE just “get along?” I’m willing to start all over again, if you are.

 

[mrs_abbott]

It’s all good. Everyone is entitled to their opinion. You have yours and I have mine. I’ve just decided to not talk about ME anymore. Everything is fine. Sorry for being so defensive. My friend talks to me like she’s right and I’m always wrong so maybe that has something to do with it.
I know that being a mom means you also need to be a good role model. Our kids will see what we do and how we act and so it’s important to set a good example for them.
Hence why I’m searching for answers so I can teach my kids the truth and believe it with my heart, mind and soul.
Tantum ergo:

Mrs. A:

I am sorry that you found my posts so challenging. I tried hard NOT to be “high and mighty”, but simply to be, I thought, caring (I commended you for your honesty and searching), and also interested in dialogue (I note that while you are attacking me on all sorts of false PERCEPTIONS you have of me you did not at all attempt either to agree or disagree with me, did not attempt to talk further, but simply are, yourself, scolding, or complaining about ME and really being quite unkind in your remarks, in my opinion.)

God bless you, because we are, believe it or not, on the same side. We are both people, both women, both mothers, both wanting to love
God, both struggling with how to do so. . .

We aren’t enemies, I am NOT trying to put you down, exalt myself, make you “feel bad” (I DO have feelings too ), I am NOT trying to be “uber Catholic” and I’m not trying to guilt you or force you in any way. . .

So can’t we PLEASE just “get along?” I’m willing to start all over again, if you are.

 

[tjmiller]

mrsabbott - Sometimes methinks the forum is largely a therapeutic outlet for orthodox/conservative/traditional Catholics with an argumentative vein - like me - to express themselves. Sometimes I think we make a game of it. That may often come across as insensitive. On behalf of polemicistic papists like myself, I am sorry. Please don’t be discouraged. Be patient with us, whether high and mighty or low and humble.

The Church is not a society of the perfect, but a hospital for the sick and wounded. We are sinners in need of great grace. Those of us who are confidently complacent in our sanctity and knowledge of the truth - like me- may be in far greater danger than the meek and lowly seekers. (That doesn’t mean we aren’t right, though.)

God’s Light Be Upon Your Quest.

 

[mrs_abbott]

Patience is a great virtue because it’s so hard to maintain. I try not to lash out or be harsh in my posts but sometimes I do take things personally. I know that’s not most people’s intentions but it happens. I think I’m going to just retreat because it seems like my posts are taken out of context and misinterpretted.
Like I said before, we all have our own ideas and opinions that float around the same concept of being a good Christian and it’s important to remember to be accepting of those who opinions differ from your own.

tjmiller:

mrsabbott - Sometimes methinks the forum is largely a therapeutic outlet for orthodox/conservative/traditional Catholics with an argumentative vein - like me - to express themselves. Sometimes I think we make a game of it. That may often come across as insensitive. On behalf of polemicistic papists like myself, I am sorry. Please don’t be discouraged. Be patient with us, whether high and mighty or low and humble.

The Church is not a society of the perfect, but a hospital for the sick and wounded. We are sinners in need of great grace. Those of us who are confidently complacent in our sanctity and knowledge of the truth - like me- may be in far greater danger than the meek and lowly seekers. (That doesn’t mean we aren’t right, though.)

God’s Light Be Upon Your Quest.

 

[Kitty_Chan]

Mrs Abbot

Hope you can stand another post while Im not catholic I do share your frustrations. Believe it not same things happen in baptist or pentacostal churches. Same frustrations you have. I think one of the problems with religion is its a dirty word. Yes against the catholic church but against all organized religion really. Organized is another dirty word, one can organize for the olympics but not for church.

Dont forget that popular media and non believers think that religious folk have no intelligence, and are generally stupid.

So this probably does play somewhere in the back of your mind, keep up what your doing and quit worrying if your good enough, or do it all right, or if your worthy, all you can do is try your best. And when your disscouraged about the others, keep in mind we have all come short of the Glory, none of us are perfect.

PS another great CS Lewis book is mere christianity sorts out alot of those feelings your having, helped put things in perspective for me.

 

[mikew262]

IMO, “spiritual” is having a personal connection to God. “Religious” is putting a formal denomination “stamp” on your relationship with God. This stamp may be Catholic, Baptist, Muslin, etc…

Can one co-exist with the other? Absolutely. It can swing the other way as well. I believe many folks can have a personal relationship with God w/o practicing any formal religion. On the other hand, I think some folks outward practice a religion, maybe for looks only, but in reality have not really connected spiritually with God yet.

 

[mrs_abbott]

I survived another post.
I’ve decided that God knows what’s in my heart and He’s the only one that will continue to because He’s the only one that can understand me.
Kitty Chan:

Mrs Abbot

Hope you can stand another post while Im not catholic I do share your frustrations. Believe it not same things happen in baptist or pentacostal churches. Same frustrations you have. I think one of the problems with religion is its a dirty word. Yes against the catholic church but against all organized religion really. Organized is another dirty word, one can organize for the olympics but not for church.

Dont forget that popular media and non believers think that religious folk have no intelligence, and are generally stupid.

So this probably does play somewhere in the back of your mind, keep up what your doing and quit worrying if your good enough, or do it all right, or if your worthy, all you can do is try your best. And when your disscouraged about the others, keep in mind we have all come short of the Glory, none of us are perfect.

PS another great CS Lewis book is mere christianity sorts out alot of those feelings your having, helped put things in perspective for me.

 

[mrs_abbott]

That’s exactly how I feel. My spiritual side is strong and my religious side is shaky, but nonetheless still existent. I figure if the two are equal and remain so, I’ll have a good relationship with God and the Church.

mikew262:

IMO, “spiritual” is having a personal connection to God. “Religious” is putting a formal denomination “stamp” on your relationship with God. This stamp may be Catholic, Baptist, Muslin, etc…

Can one co-exist with the other? Absolutely. It can swing the other way as well. I believe many folks can have a personal relationship with God w/o practicing any formal religion. On the other hand, I think some folks outward practice a religion, maybe for looks only, but in reality have not really connected spiritually with God yet.

 

[Mickey]

mrs_abbott:

I’ve decided that God knows what’s in my heart and He’s the only one that will continue to because He’s the only one that can understand me.

Amen!
God is the only one that truly knows your heart!