Religious Priests And Secular Priests: Does The Laity Appreciate The Difference?

[Jeanette_L]

After reading this, the issue makes even less sense to me now. I find it very perturbing. If someone doesn’t want to serve in certain capacities, they should make that clear as soon as they arrive in a parish. It’s only fair. It’s like saying I want to be an ambulance driver, but I hate sirens…

Sometimes I wonder if the people in a parish may not be partly to blame if a religious is not happy serving?

I think that attitude and gratitude go a long way in making our religious and priests able to serve us with joy.

If a priest seems to be struggling in his service in a parish, the lay parishoners should take it upon themselves to try to remedy that. Speak with kindness and gratitude, show appreciation and the love of Christ.

Very few priests, whether secular or religious will not respond positively and with renewed ferver if treated well and with love for their service.

Love is contagious.

 

[elt1956]

After reading this, the issue makes even less sense to me now. I find it very perturbing. If someone doesn’t want to serve in certain capacities, they should make that clear as soon as they arrive in a parish. It’s only fair. It’s like saying I want to be an ambulance driver, but I hate sirens…

Sometimes I wonder if the people in a parish may not be partly to blame if a religious is not happy serving?

I think that attitude and gratitude go a long way in making our religious and priests able to serve us with joy.

If a priest seems to be struggling in his service in a parish, the lay parishoners should take it upon themselves to try to remedy that. Speak with kindness and gratitude, show appreciation and the love of Christ.

Very few priests, whether secular or religious will not respond positively and with renewed ferver if treated well and with love for their service.

Love is contagious.

I think often of the lonliness of the priesthood. Peace.

 

[JReducation]

Let me try to clear up this question about religious and secular using a different paradigm.

RELIGIOUS: Priests, Brothers, Sisters and Nuns

1. Make vows of chastity, poverty and obedience until death. Can be male or female. SOME are priests, most are women and the rest are lay brothers. They may not be permanent deacons, unless their rule allows it.
2. Obedience: the founder, the rule, the community and the Church makes all decisions. You can’t just miss dinner without asking for permission. You must go where you are told, even across the globe. You can’t even become a priest unless your superior and his council feel that it will be GOOD FOR THE COMMUNITY. You can ask for Holy Orders, but you can’t expect that it will always be approved (does not apply to women religious). They are not tied to a diocese and they are not bound to obey a bishop except in what pertains to the parish. The bishop may not discipline them. He must report the problem to the superior who does the disciplining. They do not have to stay in a parish. They may leave a diocese any time they want to do so as long as their superior approves it. Not all Church rules regarding priests apply to them.
3. Chastity: No marriage. You MUST be part of a community. You must pray with your community, eat with the community, recreate with the community, dress as the community dictates, go to sleep when the community sleeps, watch TV when the community allows it, go on retreat with the community, pray with the community, believe everything that the community believes and go where the community goes, serve where the community serves. The community is your spouse. Even if celibacy were abolished, it would not apply to you, because you are already married to the community. In some communities all members are called brother or friar. They all have the same rights, whether they are ordained or not.
4. Poverty: Different from one community to another. The common elements. You do not have a salary, no medical insurance, no retirement plan, no personal car, not own your own home, not own property of any kind (stocks, land, condos etc), you must share. They cannot keep any inheritance or gift money. That goes to the community. They must give away all of their money and property before they enter the order.

Some communities are stricter than others. Some communities don’t allow themselves to own anything. They people they serve lend them a place to live. They do not own it. When they leave, the house remains and they cannot sell it. They give it back to the people they serve. The members cannot have money. They have to ask the community treasurer for money to buy anything. They are given a few dollars a week to carry in their wallet in case they want a soda. They don’t go on vacations, except to visit their families once a year. No cruises or European getaways.

Continued . . .

 

[JReducation]

SECULAR: Lay people, deacons, priests, bishops and popes

1. They do not make vows of poverty, chastity and obedience.
2. Secular priests promise obedience to the bishop of their diocese. Thus, they are called Diocesan Priests. The bishop may assign them within the diocese or to missions that the diocese has. The bishop has the authority to supervise their ministry and their performance. The bishop may not intervene in their personal life, unless they are causing scandal or breaking church law.
3. Secular priests promise celibacy. They give up marriage. But they do not marry a community.
4. Secular priests are paid a salary (not much). The may own property of their own, including: a home, car, vacation home, clothes, stocks, bonds, CDs, etc… May have medical insurance, retirement plans, life insurance and any other form of financial security. May live in the rectory or own their home. Most bishops prefer they live in a rectory. They can have a personal bank account. They keep anything they inherit or money they are gifted.
5. They can live alone or share the rectory with other priests. But they do not have to pray together, eat together, recreate together, go to bed at the same time, go on retreat together or do anything together. They can be just housemates. Most priests develop a relationship and do some of these things together, not out of obligation as religious do, but because they enjoy each other and don’t want to be alone.
6. They do not work outside their diocese, unless there is a contract between their bishop and another bishop or organization. They can be lent out to another organization outside the diocese, but they must report to their bishop while away.
7. They can wear whatever they want to wear. They never have to ask for permission to sleep in or go to bed late. They don’t have to ask for permission to get a new car. They can travel; go on vacations, even cruises and European tours with their own money. They may live with their families. They even pay taxes if they have enough income.
8. The pastor is their boss regarding their priestly duties. If the pastor does not like the way a priest behaves he may counsel him, but he may not discipline him, as a religious superior can. The pastor must present his case to the diocese, either the Bishop or the Vicar deals with disciplinary issues. There are no community rules that they have to follow even if they live with other priests. Anything they agree on, such as eating together or praying together is just an agreement, not a rule.

Hope this makes the difference between secular and religious clearer. There are exceptions to all of these depending on the Diocese or the religious community.

Hope this helps.

JR

 

[JReducation]

I think often of the lonliness of the priesthood. Peace.

That’s probably why more men choose to enter a religious community than be diocesan priests. At least in a religious community you have a brotherhood.

The more monastic the community, the closer they are to each other, because the more time they spend together.

JR

 

[LRThunder]

What about bishops who come from religious orders? Are they released from their vows of poverty since they’re now bishops?

 

[JReducation]

What about bishops who come from religious orders? Are they released from their vows of poverty since they’re now bishops?

The revised Canon Law says that anything that a bishop acquires after he becomes a bishop is his property.

When a bishop retires, he may return to his order, as he has not been released from it, whatever he owns becomes the property of the order or he may give it away at his discretion before returning to the order (only for those who became bishops under the new rule).

 

[Phemie]

Let me try to clear up this question about religious and secular using a different paradigm.

RELIGIOUS: Priests, Brothers, Sisters and Nuns

1. Poverty: Different from one community to another. The common elements. You do not have a salary, no medical insurance, no retirement plan, no personal car, not own your own home, not own property of any kind (stocks, land, condos etc), you must share. They cannot keep any inheritance or gift money. That goes to the community. They must give away all of their money and property before they enter the order.

Some communities are stricter than others. Some communities don’t allow themselves to own anything. They people they serve lend them a place to live. They do not own it. When they leave, the house remains and they cannot sell it. They give it back to the people they serve. The members cannot have money. They have to ask the community treasurer for money to buy anything. They are given a few dollars a week to carry in their wallet in case they want a soda. They don’t go on vacations, except to visit their families once a year. No cruises or European getaways.

Even within the same Order there can be great differences between chapters/provinces. Our OMI have their own bank account, get a monthly stipend and our pastor moonlights as a substitute teacher. It was interesting watching the difference when OMIs from another province/chapter came to stay for several months.

 

[JReducation]

Even within the same Order there can be great differences between chapters/provinces. Our OMI have their own bank account, get a monthly stipend and our pastor moonlights as a substitute teacher. It was interesting watching the difference when OMIs from another province/chapter came to stay for several months.

Some communities such as the Oblates of Mary Immaculate can do things like this, because they are not Orders. They are congregations.

Congregations don’t take solemn vows of poverty. They take simple vows of poverty.

A simple vow of poverty has a little more “wiggle room”.

Solmen vows of poverty have not wiggle room. Only Orders take solemn vows.

That’s one difference between an order and a congregation.

By the way some defintions:

Chapter: a meeting of the religious where decisions are made and superiors are elected. These decisions are binding on all the members of the community under obedience.

Only the General Chapter and the Provincial Chapter have this authority. The house chapter does not.

Province: the territory that a segment of a religious community covers. Large communities cover extensive territories. To make government more manageable, the community is broken down into areas called provinces. The term comes from Europe.

JR

 

[Phemie]

Gotcha!

The Province is further broken down into regional communities.

 

[JReducation]

Gotcha!

The Province is further broken down into regional communities.

Right. These are called local communities. These are the communities that you find at your parish, school, hospital, etc.

These are the guys who are on the front lines and who usually take the beating from the laity.

What the laity doesn’t always know is that these guys don’t make up their rules. The more ascetic the order, the less freedom these guys have to make decisions without consulting their superiors. Sometimes, the rule does not allow superiors to make certain decisions. The superior must convoke a chapter and have the provincial community vote on it.

This was the case with the TLM in some religious orders. They had to discuss it and decide if they wanted to go with it.

The Holy Father said it was the extraordinary form of the mass. That meant that it was not mandatory for any priest to celebrate it. Therefore, those orders that have priests had to discuss how they felt about celebrating the mass using the extraordinary form.

This is very hard for the community. If it creates hard feelings within the brotherhood, the superior is in a tight situation. His primary obligation is to keep his community together and faithful to its founder, not to keep the laity happy. That’s not his job.

He has to make a decision as to allow it or not. He has to decide how his decision will affect the relationships within his community. Often a religious superior will ask all of the houses under his jurisdiction to discuss it and give him some feedback.

Or the religious superior may simply tell the local house to reach an agreement among themselves, but they must agree and support the agreement. They can’t have one guy going against all the others in the house and saying he’s going to do it.

The way it will work is if the majority agrees that this is pastory necessary and that they want to do it, any member of the community who feels uncomfortable with it will usually be excused from celebrating mass in this form.

It’s not as easy as people think. You can’t just bang on the religious house’s door and demand that the pastor accomodate. Sometimes the pastor doesn’t have that kind of authority over the religious in his house.

In the case of diocesan priests it’s much more simple. There is no local superior. The priest decides he wants to do it and the pastor agrees. The other priests in the house have little or nothing to do with the decision. You don’t need consensus as you would in a religious community.

There are times when the religious superior will overrule the entire community either for or against something. That’s his right. If there is a problem with the bishop, that is dicussed between the superior and the bishop. The laity doesn’t belong in that discussion.

Intersting stuff, huh!

JR

 

[Phemie]

In our case it’s a community of 1 most of the time.

 

[JReducation]

In our case it’s a community of 1 most of the time.

You said that your priest is an Oblate of Mary Immaculate (OMI) right?

If he’s the only one in the parish, he is more than likely attached to the religious house closest to him.

Most religious never assign only one person to a parish, unless it’s a very small parish. In that case they will attach him to the nearest religious house. He lives at the parish where he works, but he answers to the superior of the religious house closest to him and he is expected to spend some time with them at regular intervals, an hour a day, once a week or whatever is convenient.

When that’s not possible, the individual religious then is directly responsible to the Provincial Superior also called the Major Superior. He must report to him on a regular basis. He gets his permissions from him.

JR

 

[Phemie]

You said that your priest is an Oblate of Mary Immaculate (OMI) right?

If he’s the only one in the parish, he is more than likely attached to the religious house closest to him.

Most religious never assign only one person to a parish, unless it’s a very small parish. In that case they will attach him to the nearest religious house. He lives at the parish where he works, but he answers to the superior of the religious house closest to him and he is expected to spend some time with them at regular intervals, an hour a day, once a week or whatever is convenient.

When that’s not possible, the individual religious then is directly responsible to the Provincial Superior also called the Major Superior. He must report to him on a regular basis. He gets his permissions from him.

JR

There is the local community (1, sometimes 2), then there is the regional community, which includes OMIs from 4 provinces (Canada, remember?) and which has a superior who resides in the nearest other ‘local community’, 6 hours away.

 

[JReducation]

There is the local community (1, sometimes 2), then there is the regional community, which includes OMIs from 4 provinces (Canada, remember?) and which has a superior who resides in the nearest other ‘local community’, 6 hours away.

That’s a common arrangement, except for mendicants. They usually live in 2 and 3.

 

[anamchara]

Awesome information JR! It’s too bad religious don’t come with instructions when they are in a parish

We have no religious in our parish…nor have I ever been around one so I am clueless here.

 

[JReducation]

The most important thing that we have to learn is to ask questions first, before we shoot, especially before our tongues begin to wag and we sin against charity.

For example, if you ask your bishop to start up a special ministry that is not already in existence in the parishes or that you want to see independent from the parishes, you must understand that the parishes cannot finance it.

If the bishop has to assign a full-time Diocesan priest to this ministry, he has to pull him out of somewhere. It’s as if someone offered you a new job. That’s fine. You may like the new job. However, your old job paid your bills. Your new job has to offer you some kind of compensation, because your bills are not going to disappear. Your old job gave you some kind of security because it paid your medical insurance and your social security and your retirement pension. Your new job has to pick up those expenses. Your old job provided you with housing or enough of a salary that you could pay for your own home. Your new job has to do the same. If you should become sick and unable to work, you old job had short or long-term disability. You want your new job to have the same benefits.

Should you accept this new job with none of the above, you become a burden on your family and friends. The same applies to a Diocesan priest. It is not the bishop’s responsibility to provide for the financial needs of his priests. That is why they are called seculars. They are not a religious community that takes care of their own. And the bishop is not their spiritual father as is a religious superior. He is their pastor and boss, which is a different relationship. He is responsible for their spiritual welfare, not their material welfare. In justice, the people whom the Diocesan priest serves have to find a way to make sure that this priest has what every working man or woman is entitled to. It is a human right and a moral duty that we treat workers with fairness.

People often get upset when a bishop says that we cannot afford this or that ministry because we don’t have the money. The bishop is not selling the sacraments or the faith. He’s talking about the money to support the priest that will run the ministry, not to mention any overhead costs such as an office, mileage reimbursement, secretary, utilities, rent for space etc.

Most lay people get upset because they don’t know that Diocesan or secular priests, whichever you call them, do not have any family such as a religious family to cover for them.

Even religious orders sometimes can’t afford certain ministries outside of the ones they have, because they have to provide for the needs of the religious. Though religious come cheaper, because they don’t have insurance, private cars, their own home, retirement plans or even social security. This is not allowed by the vow of poverty.

Before we go attacking and criticizing, we should ask questions and understand the circumstances. Understanding often helps in the exercise of charity and justice.

JR

 

[JReducation]

Earlier this week I went to my parish for spiritual direction. During my talk with the friar who’s my spiritual director I asked him if the EF was going to be introduced in our parish. He had a very interesting answer, which applies to this thread.

He said that there were some requests for it but there were some technical problems.

1. Only five people asked for it. We have a parish church that seast 1000 and we have six masses every weekend with standing room only. I could see how that could pose a slight technical problem.
2. In most places the pastor is the final authority over the priests. Even in parishes where the priests are religious, the same person is both pastor and religious superior. In our parish, it’s not the case. The religious superior and the pastor are two separate persons. The friars assigned to the parish certainly answer to the pastor regarding anything that has to do with the parish, but they do not answer to the pastor in regards to things that involve the community.
3. Non of the men assigned to the parish have volunteered to learn the Tridentine form. The other men who are part of the community are not part of the parish staff. The pastor cannot demand it of them and the superior said that he would not demand it unless Rome demands it. That means that there are no priests who can celebrate it.
4. Their order has its own sacramentary (missal), lectionary, and breviary (Liturgy of the Hours). They do not use the same one as the universal Church. Some of the prayers are slightly different on certain days and so are the readings, nothing that the average person would notice unless they went to mass twice in the same day at two different parishes. But the problem is that the TLM missal is not the missal of their order. The question is whether or not Rome is going to give them their own TLM missal or expect them to use the one that everyone else uses. Fifty years ago when the Tridentine mass was all that we had, they had their own missal with the proper prayers for their holy days and the proper readings for the holy days of their order, but it was all in the Tridentine form.

Those books are still in the library. However, the Church calendar has changed and the holy days no longer match. So the new Tridentine missal has already taken that into consideration. But the new Tridentine missal does not include the holy days of this order. To produce a Tridentine missal with the holy days of this order and the proper readings to go along with it requires money and scholars to put it together. Rome is still silent on what it’s gong to do about exempt religioius orders who have used their own missal for centuries.

As you can see, we must be patient and charitable at all times. There are things that we do not always know. We can easily point fingers and accuse people of all kinds of things from conspiracies to laziness, when in fact there are technical difficulties.

JR

 

[Darnok]

This is an interesting thread.
I would have to say that there are different “atmospheres” in the two (2) environments. When I was growing up (I’m a cradle Catholic born and raised in Buffalo, N.Y.) my parish was run by secular priests. My priest back there was a major fan of the Buffalo Bills (football). Last I checked (according to the Buffalo Diocese website) he’s still there! The nuns were the Sisters of St. Joseph. When I moved down here to Hawaii, my parish is run by Franciscans (Cap.)
Back in Buffalo, I just wish they had taught me more about the structure of the church (various major Orders, etc.).

The one thing I have to admit I enjoy now is my connectivity with my priest. I am presently going through formation to join the Secular Franciscans. One of my parish priests is the (Hawaii) state Spiritual Adviser for the Order. I look forward to every homily from our priests I see it as part of my formation.

 

[JReducation]

This is an interesting thread.
I would have to say that there are different “atmospheres” in the two (2) environments. When I was growing up (I’m a cradle Catholic born and raised in Buffalo, N.Y.) my parish was run by secular priests. My priest back there was a major fan of the Buffalo Bills (football). Last I checked (according to the Buffalo Diocese website) he’s still there! The nuns were the Sisters of St. Joseph. When I moved down here to Hawaii, my parish is run by Franciscans (Cap.)
Back in Buffalo, I just wish they had taught me more about the structure of the church (various major Orders, etc.).

The one thing I have to admit I enjoy now is my connectivity with my priest. I am presently going through formation to join the Secular Franciscans. One of my parish priests is the (Hawaii) state Spiritual Adviser for the Order. I look forward to every homily from our priests I see it as part of my formation.

I’m happy to hear that you have run into the Capuchin-Franciscan Friars. They are very inspiring group of Brothers (Friars in English). I grew up with them and they were very instrumental in bringing me into Catholicism. I was most inspired by their love of the Eucharist, Christ crucified, our Holy Father St. Francis, obedience, the Church and above all, detachment from those things that interfere with the Gospel Life.

As a Franciscan myself, I believe that you will not be disappointed if you join our family. The Secular Order is the largest religious community in the world. This is not an accident. It still speaks to people of Christ crucified and it still provides the stepping stones to reach and embrace the Lord on the Cross and be united with him until the Resurrection.

Pax et Bonum Frater

JR