Religious Sisters' Letter to Congress in support of HHS mandate

[opus101]

If you’re interested in knowing who the signatories were for the Network letter to Congress, here they are: networklobby.org/legislation/catholic-sisters-letter-support-healthcare-reform-bill

Here is some interesting information about it. lifenews.com/2010/03/18/nat-6145/ Any thoughts?

 

[incense]

They were purposefully using their Catholicism, their status as religious, to influence others to do something sinful. Looks like something their bishops and orders need to handle, and very publicly too. Just like their actions were public.

 

[vppoole]

While I skimmed through the long list of names, the second one on the list told me all that I needed to know, because she has been ordered by the Vatican not to speak publicly.

It baffles me that there are so many dissident Catholics out there who think that they are truly doing good for the world by publicly defying the Church’s clear teaching on sexuality, while assuming a false ecclesiastic authority for themselves in order to disregard the outspoken position of their superiors, the Bishops.

I pray the Bishops of these areas recognize their duty and have the courage to make a house call and have a “come to Jesus” meeting with these misguided leaders.

 

[Captain_America]

How many of these people believed abortion was involved in national health care?

I think national health care in some form is necessary.

One other problem I see here is. . . WHEN did nuns and sisters get to be the official voice of the church? Why not an alliance of local priests or laymen?

Geez, what’s so bad about consulting the Catechism?

 

[Fiasco]

While I skimmed through the long list of names, the second one on the list told me all that I needed to know, because she has been ordered by the Vatican not to speak publicly.

i guessed that you meant that one!

Public excommunucation is the only action left to deal with her. That radical feminist pagan has had more than enough time to repent.

All of the "Team"s! That rings an alarm.

 

[Havard]

They were purposefully using their Catholicism, their status as religious, to influence others to do something sinful. Looks like something their bishops and orders need to handle, and very publicly too. Just like their actions were public.

:nope:

 

[Lancer]

If pictures of this group were also provided…not one is under 50 yrs old…probably 55-60 yrs is the right age group…or older.

God bless their vocation and consecration to give their entire life to Christ and his Church…I just pray for them to be faithful to the Bishops…their bishops and the Pope and Magisterium…otherwise, instead of leaving a faithful and impressive legacy of great accomplishment for Christ, The Church and their Order/apostolate…they are simply dinosaurs waiting to exit the stage…and undermining the long term viability of their Order…their legacy and work will end up in the “dust-bin of history”!

Pax Christi

 

[opus101]

If pictures of this group were also provided…not one is under 50 yrs old…probably 55-60 yrs is the right age group…or older.

God bless their vocation and consecration to give their entire life to Christ and his Church…I just pray for them to be faithful to the Bishops…their bishops and the Pope and Magisterium…otherwise, instead of leaving a faithful and impressive legacy of great accomplishment for Christ, The Church and their Order/apostolate…they are simply dinosaurs waiting to exit the stage…and undermining the long term viability of their Order…their legacy and work will end up in the “dust-bin of history”!

Pax Christi

This was a very generous and kind post - especially w/ the age guesses. I know of some of them, and they are in their 70s. I’m assuming that no on is under the age of 60. They represent many orders, but have very few (if any) vocations. A large percentage of their communities are elderly and infirm. Soon they themselves will be in the infirmary, with no one left to take care of them. The irony of the situation is that they may end up being taken care of by the newer congregations that have loads of vocations!

 

[JReducation]

I was looking at the list and unfortunately there is nothing that the Church can do here, except cringe and bear it.

Most of these sisters are exempt religious protected by the Right of Exemption granted by the Council of Trent.

Even if they were not exempt religious, there is no canonical penalty attached to their actions, because they have no obligation to support the bishops. Communities of Pontifical Right answer only to the Holy Father. The Holy Father has made it very clear that he has not desire to involve himself in the affairs of religious communities, nor are the bishops or laity to interfere. The communities must resolve their problems at the local level. The bishops, other religious, clergy and the laity’s role is to support their works of charity and steer clear of their disciplinary problems.

The Council of Trent clearly states that exempt religious operate independently of the bishops. No bishop can even visit their house without the permission of these religious. Exempt religious are male and female. There are several hundred religious communities of exempt religious men and women in the Church and many more of Pontifical Right. Some communities have both status. Their members are exempt and the community is of Pontifical Right.

We just have to pray that we get through this storm soon enough. The good thing is that the number of people involved do not represent every woman religious in the USA. The bad thing is the misrepresentation. The worse thing is that some of them do not understand the repercussion of this mandate. They truly believe that some deal can be struck up in the year that President Obama says we have to work with. The rest of us know that there will be no change in a year. We have trusted and been burnt by the government many times.

At the end of the day, the US government owes Christians and Jews much more than we owe the government. Christians and Jews built the infrastructure of this country. We have every right to demand that we not wait a year to fix this mess.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

 

[He_Man]

How many of these people believed abortion was involved in national health care?

I think national health care in some form is necessary.

One other problem I see here is. . . WHEN did nuns and sisters get to be the official voice of the church? Why not an alliance of local priests or laymen?

Geez, what’s so bad about consulting the Catechism?

Around 1969. And sisters/nuns is a bit outdated; they prefer she-priests, TYVM.

 

[iloveangels]

Agree completely.

 

[iloveangels]

Even if they were not exempt religious, there is no canonical penalty attached to their actions, because they have no obligation to support the bishops. Communities of Pontifical Right answer only to the Holy Father. The Holy Father has made it very clear that he has not desire to involve himself in the affairs of religious communities, nor are the bishops or laity to interfere. The communities must resolve their problems at the local level. The bishops, other religious, clergy and the laity’s role is to support their works of charity and steer clear of their disciplinary problems.

I do not believe that we have a responsibility to support things that run counter to our bishops and the teaching of the Church. Those who put themselves in opposition to the Church may find themselves on their own.

We just have to pray that we get through this storm soon enough. The good thing is that the number of people involved do not represent every woman religious in the USA. The bad thing is the misrepresentation. The worse thing is that some of them do not understand the repercussion of this mandate. They truly believe that some deal can be struck up in the year that President Obama says we have to work with. The rest of us know that there will be no change in a year. We have trusted and been burnt by the government many times.

At the end of the day, the US government owes Christians and Jews much more than we owe the government. Christians and Jews built the infrastructure of this country. We have every right to demand that we not wait a year to fix this mess.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

Agree.

New from CNS: Bishops have last word on faith, Vatican theological panel says
catholicnews.com/data/stories/cns/1200873.htm

 

[JReducation]

I do not believe that we have a responsibility to support things that run counter to our bishops and the teaching of the Church. Those who put themselves in opposition to the Church may find themselves on their own.

The decree of the Council of Trent and later Canon Law is not that one support misbehavior, but that one support the works of charity. There is a difference. The same person who signs such a letter may also be the person who runs the local soup kitchen. We don’t withdraw support from the soup kitchen, even the bishops are not allowed to do that.

The bishops are in a tighter straight jacket than the lay faithful. The lay faithful must support the works of charity either financially, through some form of volunteering and prayer. The bishops have to protect the religious from outside interference, whether they are on good terms or bad terms with each other. If the community is of Pontifical Right, the bishop must protect the pope’s interests. This means protecting the community.

To the Holy See, the affairs of religious in the USA are not that important for several reasons. The numbers of Catholics in the USA make up less than 5% of the Catholics in the world. The greater number of resources has to be allocated to the larger number of people. Second, the number of people involved here is a handful, not an entire congregation.

When you’re dealing with large numbers, as is the case with the Holy See, your vision tends to be very different than when you’re on the local level. Look at the Apostolic Visitation of women religious. They handed the report to the Holy Father. He praised what was good and he told the commission to help the sisters to address the problems, at the local level.

American sisters are not the only sisters in the world and their problems are smaller by comparison, especially to those of the Eastern Catholic nuns and sisters who are being persecuted in the Middle East and the African nuns and sisters who are living and working in subhuman conditions with oppressive governments on their backs. They make up over 100,000 women. This group is probably made up of several hundred women, if that. This group does not represent the Council of Major Superiors of Women Religious, nor the Council of Religious Brothers, nor the Conference of Male Religious.

After telling the commission to work with the sisters at the local level, the pope moved on. He had a book to finish, the Assisi conference, World Youth Day in Madrid, new bishops to ordain and older bishops retiring, studies for beatifications and canonizations waiting for his signature, the issue with the Muslims and the Jews, the sex abuse scandal, the research, to which he devotes several hours a day and whatever else he does in a four hour day. The man only has about four hours in his office. The rest of his day is spent with visitors or in research, mostly with visitors and meetings.

In that position, you take the ruling of something like the Council of Trent and you tell the faithful to support the works of charity, the bishops to protect the religious and the dissenting voices to fix their problems at their level and you move on to other things that require your attention.

The Holy Father is one man, with his own agenda and he knows that he is not young and there are things that he wants to finish before the end comes. This is a pope who has published more books in five years than any other pope in an entire reign. He’s a scholar and has some things to say that must be said before he’s too old or too sick. I admire his stamina and the peace that he keeps in his head. It’s incredible.

I knew him when he was a Cardinal and then met him again after he was pope. He has never changed. He is very calm and rational, while the rest of us are frantic. He truly trusts that the Holy Spirit will bring out the best in the Catholic people.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

 

[Fiasco]

The bishops are in a tighter straight jacket than the lay faithful. The lay faithful must support the works of charity either financially, through some form of volunteering and prayer. The bishops have to protect the religious from outside interference, whether they are on good terms or bad terms with each other. If the community is of Pontifical Right, the bishop must protect the pope’s interests. This means protecting the community.

Thank Goodness these dissenters are on their last legs!

The Holy Father is one man, with his own agenda and he knows that he is not young and there are things that he wants to finish before the end comes. This is a pope who has published more books in five years than any other pope in an entire reign. He’s a scholar and has some things to say that must be said before he’s too old or too sick. I admire his stamina and the peace that he keeps in his head. It’s incredible.

I knew him when he was a Cardinal and then met him again after he was pope. He has never changed. He is very calm and rational, while the rest of us are frantic. He truly trusts that the Holy Spirit will bring out the best in the Catholic people.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

So, he`s like our Lord, rather than the Apostles, in the storm-tossed boat.
Comforting words, indeed.

BTW:
Good to see you`re still here!

 

[iloveangels]

The decree of the Council of Trent and later Canon Law is not that one support misbehavior, but that one support the works of charity. There is a difference. The same person who signs such a letter may also be the person who runs the local soup kitchen. We don’t withdraw support from the soup kitchen, even the bishops are not allowed to do that.

I understand. However, money is fungible and the two-charity & misbehavior-have not been separable,and that has been shown to be a fact now. We’ve seen that. The religious orders are not the only way to perform works of charity, and anymore not even the best way to perform works of charity for many Americans. There are exceptions of course in some big city areas, but in most of America, the exceptions do not exist.

The bishops are in a tighter straight jacket than the lay faithful. The lay faithful must support the works of charity either financially, through some form of volunteering and prayer. The bishops have to protect the religious from outside interference, whether they are on good terms or bad terms with each other. If the community is of Pontifical Right, the bishop must protect the pope’s interests. This means protecting the community.

I understand this. This has been a huge millstone around their necks, I believe. When push comes to shove, I think this will still be true, but other things are also just as true and more urgent at the present time, and I think people are seeing that now.

To the Holy See, the affairs of religious in the USA are not that important for several reasons. The numbers of Catholics in the USA make up less than 5% of the Catholics in the world. The greater number of resources has to be allocated to the larger number of people. Second, the number of people involved here is a handful, not an entire congregation.

Many Americans never see a member of a religious order, and even more of them see them but can’t identify them as religious. In the classes at our local diocese, for instance, the topic of religious orders literally never comes up unless I personally bring it up, which I did once just to see what would happen. It got a momentary oh yeah, a quizzical look, and then nothing; people don’t think about religious orders much here. The topic of seminarians does come up, frequently, though. The parish structure, then the diocese, then Rome, is how most Americans identify the church almost exclusively now. Religious orders are now an artifact to most American Catholics, particularly those outside the centers of big cities. And even now, in big cities, average contact with a religious order is generally so fleeting that the same can usually be said about city dwellers. *

When you’re dealing with large numbers, as is the case with the Holy See, your vision tends to be very different than when you’re on the local level. Look at the Apostolic Visitation of women religious. They handed the report to the Holy Father. He praised what was good and he told the commission to help the sisters to address the problems, at the local level.

I understand this.

American sisters are not the only sisters in the world and their problems are smaller by comparison, especially to those of the Eastern Catholic nuns and sisters who are being persecuted in the Middle East and the African nuns and sisters who are living and working in subhuman conditions with oppressive governments on their backs. They make up over 100,000 women. This group is probably made up of several hundred women, if that. This group does not represent the Council of Major Superiors of Women Religious, nor the Council of Religious Brothers, nor the Conference of Male Religious.

Yes, I understand this also. Just because the behavior of many American orders and their members is an aberration, doesn’t give them the right to drive the Vatican’s actions toward the whole order. Understand this completely. Very similar to the recent situation in the OFS. The wacky behavior of the American branch is not an indication that there’s anything substantively wrong with the worldwide order, OR an indication that anything needs to be done at the worldwide level to change anything. It is an indication that the American branch needs to wake up, stop doing their own wacky thing, and come into line with the rest of the order.

The Holy Father is one man, with his own agenda and he knows that he is not young and there are things that he wants to finish before the end comes. This is a pope who has published more books in five years than any other pope in an entire reign. He’s a scholar and has some things to say that must be said before he’s too old or too sick. I admire his stamina and the peace that he keeps in his head. It’s incredible.

Yes, exactly.

I knew him when he was a Cardinal and then met him again after he was pope. He has never changed. He is very calm and rational, while the rest of us are frantic. He truly trusts that the Holy Spirit will bring out the best in the Catholic people.

I have seen him up close on some of my travels, once in St. Peter’s Square and once in a papal mass. I agree that he is calm and rational and holy, an amazing man, besides being our Pope.*

 

[iloveangels]

I understand. However, money is fungible and the two-charity & misbehavior-have not been separable,and that has been shown to be a fact now. We’ve seen that. The religious orders are not the only way to perform works of charity, and anymore not even the best way to perform works of charity for many Americans. There are exceptions of course in some big city areas, but in most of America, the exceptions do not exist.

I understand this. This has been a huge millstone around their necks in the past several decades, I believe, whereas in the past it was a blessing because religious orders did appropriate work and did it well, which is also a thing of the past in many dioceses. When push comes to shove, the rights etc of the orders, congregations and institutes will still be true, but other things are also just as true and more urgent at the present time, and I think people are seeing that now.

Many Americans never see a member of a religious order, and even more of them see them but can’t identify them as religious. In the classes at our local diocese, for instance, the topic of religious orders literally never comes up unless I personally bring it up, which I did once just to see what would happen. It got a momentary oh yeah, a quizzical look, and then nothing; people don’t think about religious orders much here. The topic of seminarians does come up, frequently, though. The parish structure, then the diocese, then Rome, is how most Americans identify the church almost exclusively now. Religious orders are now an artifact to most American Catholics, particularly those outside the centers of big cities. And even now, in big cities, average contact with a religious order is generally so fleeting that the same can usually be said about city dwellers. *

I understand this.

Yes, I understand this also. Just because the behavior of many American orders and their members is an aberration, doesn’t give them the right to drive the Vatican’s actions toward the whole order. Understand this completely. Very similar to the recent situation in the OFS. The wacky behavior of the American branch is not an indication that there’s anything substantively wrong with the worldwide order, OR an indication that anything needs to be done at the worldwide level to change anything. It is an indication that the American branch needs to wake up, stop doing their own wacky thing, and come into line with the rest of the order.

Yes, exactly.

I have seen him up close on some of my travels, once in St. Peter’s Square and once in a papal mass. I agree that he is calm and rational and holy, an amazing man, besides being our Pope.*

 

[JReducation]

I understand. However, money is fungible and the two-charity & misbehavior-have not been separable,and that has been shown to be a fact now. We’ve seen that. The religious orders are not the only way to perform works of charity, and anymore not even the best way to perform works of charity for many Americans. There are exceptions of course in some big city areas, but in most of America, the exceptions do not exist.

This is actually Church law. We rarely speak about this, which we should so that people understand. The faithful must support the apostolic works of religious. This includes the clergy and other religious too, not just the lay faithful. If there is a soup kitchen run by sisters and one run by a secular organization, the Catholic is to support the one run by sisters. This is one of the Commandments of the Church and in canon law under religious life.

I understand this. This has been a huge millstone around their necks, I believe. When push comes to shove, I think this will still be true, but other things are also just as true and more urgent at the present time, and I think people are seeing that now.

It’s not as bad as people think. Remember, the odd man gets more publicity than the one who is doing what he should be doing. There are many more faithful and orthodox women religious than dissenters.

Many Americans never see a member of a religious order, and even more of them see them but can’t identify them as religious. *
*

There are two reasons for this. The first is a decline in the number of religious. The second is that most religious communities were founded to work among the poor. Most of the USA is middle class. Most religious communities have migrated out of the middle class communities and some have actually left the USA completely. The many who have migrated out of the middle class communities are to be found in the poorest neighborhoods, which are either very rural or inner city. Take the Franciscan reform. The friars are slowly moving out of middle class parishes and the newer constitutions prohibit serving middle class people. I believe it’s the Franciscans of the Renewal who first wrote into their constitutions that when a neighborhood’s economic level reaches to the working class, they are to leave and that they may never serve in parishes. My community does not have anything about the middle class, because we deal in life issues, but we do have that we never serve in parishes or Catholic schools. We may teach in universities, but not in high schools. That’s because the early friars did teach in universities. The Capuchin Franciscans have been shipping out friars to missions from the USA or to inner cities.

Where I work there are about 250 priests, most of them diocesan and 198 religious brothers. Most Catholics do not know the brothers, because they do not work in the middle class neighborhoods. They work among the immigrants, Native Americans, homeless, AIDS victims, elderly, and the sick. There are two schools out of 14 high schools that have brothers. That was not the case. But the brothers left the high schools because these are middle class Catholic students. They run educational programs for the poor who cannot afford to attend a private school.

Yes, I understand this also. Just because the behavior of many American orders and their members is an aberration, doesn’t give them the right to drive the Vatican’s actions toward the whole order. Understand this completely. Very similar to the recent situation in the OFS. The wacky behavior of the American branch is not an indication that there’s anything substantively wrong with the worldwide order, OR an indication that anything needs to be done at the worldwide level to change anything. It is an indication that the American branch needs to wake up, stop doing their own wacky thing, and come into line with the rest of the order.

We have to be careful here. The misbehavior is not usually an entire congregation, but a few people.

I have seen him up close on some of my travels, once in St. Peter’s Square and once in a papal mass. I agree that he is calm and rational and holy, an amazing man, besides being our Pope.

He’s an amazing man. I attended a seminar that he taught when he was a cardinal. It was only several weeks a few hours a week. He’s a gentleman, soft spoken,a little shy, and very peaceful. Yet, his level of energy is incredible. I hope I’m in that shape when I reach my 80s.

But he has been very clear about the USA. It is not his main concern right now. Europe, the sex abuse scandal, the dialogue with the Muslims and Jews and research are his main concerns. One of the advantages that the USA and Africa have over Europe is that we have younger bishops and younger religious superiors than they have. We have people who have the stamina to sit through endless hours of dialogue with these problem children. Though Africa has more religious than does the USA and less problem children. Africa has a shortage of priests, but a surplus of sisters and brothers. Very well educated ones too, mostly educated in Europe. Go figure.

They think that American Catholics are nuts.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

 

[Not_Sure_1]

These women have betrayed their Church, therefore

youtube.com/watch?v=NRt2cKvJLlE

 

[JReducation]

These women have betrayed their Church, therefore

youtube.com/watch?v=NRt2cKvJLlE

That’s a little dramatic. Excommunications were much simpler than Hollywood portrays them.

Additionally, these women have not committed a crime that carries the penalty of excommunication.

There are two ways to incur excommunication. The first is that the penalty is part of the law. There is no law that addresses this situation.

The other way to incur an excommunication is for the pope to impose it. He can impose it for any reason of his choosing, including not liking the color of your toothbrush. That is unlikely to happen here, since the Holy Father is not interested in getting involved in a web with a few sisters. He’s more concerned with religious freedom for all Americans.

That should be our concern as well. While we have a few sisters who have spoken in favor of this “accommodation” there are many more Catholic women, religious and lay who oppose this accommodation and have not stood up in public to denounce it. There is your real problem.

Observe that you see the dissenting women all over the papers. When you hear the bishops, none of them has with him a few supportive women. That’s a tactical error.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

 

[incense]

That’s a little dramatic. Excommunications were much simpler than Hollywood portrays them.

Additionally, these women have not committed a crime that carries the penalty of excommunication.

There are two ways to incur excommunication. The first is that the penalty is part of the law. There is no law that addresses this situation.

The other way to incur an excommunication is for the pope to impose it. He can impose it for any reason of his choosing, including not liking the color of your toothbrush. That is unlikely to happen here, since the Holy Father is not interested in getting involved in a web with a few sisters. He’s more concerned with religious freedom for all Americans.

That should be our concern as well. While we have a few sisters who have spoken in favor of this “accommodation” there are many more Catholic women, religious and lay who oppose this accommodation and have not stood up in public to denounce it. There is your real problem.

Observe that you see the dissenting women all over the papers. When you hear the bishops, none of them has with him a few supportive women. That’s a tactical error.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

Isn’t participating in abortion an automatic excommunication? So wouldn’t supplying abortificant drugs participating in abortion? Wouldn’t supporting the forcing of other Catholics to supply these drugs be participating in abortion? Seems to me they’ve excommunicated themselves and the Bishop only needs to point it out publicly.