Reload this Page BAHA'I thread IV - feel free to ask of Baha'i any questions

[arthra]

I don’t see the answer to my central point. In your worship is Jesus at all honoured as your creator and the saviour of your soul who will judge you when everything is said and done? This is what the gospels say and bahai don’t seem to give a clear answer to this idea. Do you accept and honour Jesus for creating you?

You already know that we don’t believe God incarnates Himself in the flesh…

We don’t venerate ikons or images of Jesus, Mary or other. We don’t burn incense or light candles in front of altars. As you know we have no priests and no one performs priestly functions as in rituals like Baptism, Eucharist, etc.

When we pray we can focus our thoughts on the Manifestation and pray through the Manifestation to God or we can pray directly to God

We don’t worship the Manifestation(s)…

Baha’is worship God…Our prayers are directed to God. A sample of the kind of prayers you would hear at a Baha’i gathering follows:

"O God my God! I beg of Thee by the ocean of Thy healing, and by the splendors of the Daystar of Thy grace, and by Thy Name through which Thou didst subdue Thy servants, and by the pervasive power of Thy most exalted Word and the potency of Thy most august Pen, and by Thy mercy that hath preceded the creation of all who are in heaven and on earth, to purge me with the waters of Thy bounty from every affliction and disorder, and from all weakness and feebleness.

"Thou seest, O my Lord, Thy suppliant waiting at the door of Thy bounty, and him who hath set his hopes on Thee clinging to the cord of Thy generosity. Deny him not, I beseech Thee, the things he seeketh from the ocean of Thy grace and the Daystar of Thy loving-kindness.

“Powerful art Thou to do what pleaseth Thee. There is none other God save Thee, the Ever-Forgiving, the Most Generous.”

***~ Baha’u’llah

Usually we recite prayers revealed by Baha’u’llah, the Bab and Abdul-Baha…We can voice our own prayer…* We can read prayers from the Holy Scripturessuch as the Qur’an or the Bible.

 

[Servant19]

not always, but sometimes it is a good thing to stick to tradition. it is especially a good thing to stick to tradition when it comes directly from God Himself, Jesus our Lord.

Tradition such as laying of the hands as handed to the Rabbinic order through classical Semikhah.
Did you know that classical semikhah refers to a specific type of ordination that, according to traditional Jewish teaching, traces a line of authority back to Moses and the seventy elders.

That Rabbinic ordination relied on tradition and it rejected Jesus.

So much for tradition huh?

 

[Servant19]

Excuse me, Servant, but did you not just state the following:

Are you now agreeing that the kingdom of God is not of this world, rather than your previous statement that it is a “literal, physical Kingdom on earth”?

I would also be interested in your comments concerning the rest of that post. You were proven wrong, by Christian Scripture, on each and every assertion you made. How do you respond?

Steve, you have misunderstood what I am saying.

When saying that the Kingdom of God is “not of this world” Jesus automatically REDEFINED the meaning of the Kingdom of God according to Jewish context and tradition at that time. Jewish tradition dictated the Messiah to bring in a PHYSICAL Kingdom of God in THIS world, not something “outside of this world”. He would come and instantly ALL JEWS WOULD KNOW ABOUT IT. He will rule with a sword and literally exterminate all gentiles. What happened?

How does Jesus have the right to do that (i.e redefine things), yet Baha’u’llah has no right to REDEFINE the meanings of some Christian traditions?

Hope that now makes sense?

 

[PRmerger]

Tradition such as laying of the hands as handed to the Rabbinic order through classical Semikhah.
Did you know that classical semikhah refers to a specific type of ordination that, according to traditional Jewish teaching, traces a line of authority back to Moses and the seventy elders.

That Rabbinic ordination relied on tradition and it rejected Jesus.

So much for tradition huh?

Not sure what you’re saying here.

You do know that we Catholics are talking about Sacred Tradition, not Jewish tradition, right?

 

[Servant19]

Not sure what you’re saying here.

You do know that we Catholics are talking about Sacred Tradition, not Jewish tradition, right?

Yes PR, I do. So to a Jew, is the Mosaic tradition any less of an authority? I think to a Jew, their tradition is JUST as important as Sacred Tradition is to Catholics, don’t you think?

 

[Servant19]

also, we should always remember that Jesus never spoke about men being manifestations of God. that is something on to which bahaullah hangs his hat, so to speak.

of course, bahaullah’s use of manifestations of God are present in other non-christian religions besides bahai. it is nowhere present in either judaism or christianity.

it seems bahaullah gets this concept from other non-christian religions. it is neither new nor unique to bahaullah.

I think if Baha’u’llah said EXACTLY the same things as Jesus, there would be no point.

Did Jesus say EXACTLY the same thing as Moses?

 

[PRmerger]

Yes PR, I do. So to a Jew, is the Mosaic tradition any less of an authority?

I’m thinking yes. It is less of an authority than the Catholic understanding of Sacred Tradition.

I think to a Jew, their tradition is JUST as important as Sacred Tradition is to Catholics, don’t you think?

Can you offer something that supports this? Where does Judaism profess that their tradition is the Word of God?

 

[Servant19]

I’m thinking yes. It is less of an authority than the Catholic understanding of Sacred Tradition.

Can you offer something that supports this? Where does Judaism profess that their tradition is the Word of God?

nazarenespace.com/page/semikhah

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Semikhah

 

[tonyfish58]

Fools rush in where angels fear to tread. I have some tentative idea about what a usable Bahai doctrine would look like (bearing in mind that such a formulation would never be authoritative, since we have no doctrinal authority). I think your critique of Tonyfish’s formulation is correct: God the Father is not at a different level and distinct from the Word and the Spirit, in either the Christian or the Bahai revelation. So far as I can see it, in the largely unploughed field of Bahai metaphysics, Revelation and Creation and Spirit are all bound up in the Word (that is, the Word is a trinity), since the Word is said in the Bahai writings to be the origin of creation, it is naturally the origin of revelation, and the Spirit also is said to proceed from the Word. Beyond the Word is the unknowable essence of the Godhead, which is not to be reduced to any one of the three. That gives us a quaternity rather than a trinity. I don’t imagine for a moment that I could argue that this is a correct interpretation of the New Testament record, so I am not trying to “fix” the Christian trinity. Rather, this is the shape I could envision a Bahai understanding taking, as metaphysical questions are argued over the centuries. If I was looking for a Bahai scholar to discuss this with, it would be Nader Saiedi, who although he is best known for his work on the Bab’s writings, has an acute sense for the metaphysical distinctions which are implied by Baha’u’llah’s and Abdu’l-Baha’s choices of terms. Personally, I go glazy eyed with the talk turns metaphysical.

Sen - Well picked up, have no idea why I said that?

Was late and not enough thought. I agree “God the Father is not at a different level and distinct from the Word and the Spirit”.

Regards Tony

 

[Sen_McGlinn]

Thank you clarifying sen, but I do believe that Bahai do want a centralized government at the top and a universal language. See I’m skeptical of all such aims for the single reason is that they never work and when one central authority takes the final control of government, things get out of control in general.

The same fears would apply to the formation of a national government. And they were to some extent justified: as modern nations formed out of feudal conglomerations, the state got a great deal more capacities for good and ill, and society was freed from internal wars and lawlessness and became more capable. The nations that did this first “progressed” enormously, and started to impose themselves on those who had not formed modern nation states, who in turn had to modernise or go under. The result was a world of nation-states, with mechanised warfare and mass armies and no law to restrain them. Where poverty and small populations and limited transportation had limited the violence of the feudal states, the modern nation states could mechanise slaughter against one another in a big way. That world was just coming in the life of Baha’u’llah, and he saw where it was leading. He wanted to restrain the nation states by a system of law; there really is no plan B for this. Feudalism and micro-states cannot be recreated, and the anarchy of the system of unrestrained state sovereignty (read: the right to wage war) is obvious. If we have another century like the 20th, we might not be so lucky. The world was very close to nuclear annihilation. So basically, the world has no choice, and is in fact developing in the direction of Baha’u’llah’s plan or something like it.

It might be fruitful to compare and contrast the key ideas of Caritas in veritate with the Bahai idea of a new world order.

I would say, is this the bahai idea of the ultimate destiny for the earth to take? Whats next once this stage is reached? … (there is no way to believe this world is getting better in terms pleasing to God).

The Bahai plan has two simultaneous (not successive) “calls” or processes. The one, in which the actors are mainly states, leads towards the “lesser” (i.e., temporal) peace, which is the rule of law among nations, through which war is banned and vast resources are freed up for the abolition of poverty and the progress of individuals. The second is the “spiritualisation of the masses,” leading towards the “greater” (i.e., inward and moral) peace. Temporal civilization without moral civilization can achieve only limited effects.

Abdu’l-Baha summed this up:

Two calls to success and prosperity are being raised … The one is the call of civilization, of the progress of the material world. This pertaineth to the world of phenomena, promoteth the principles of material achievement,… It compriseth the laws, regulations, arts and sciences through which the world of humanity hath developed; …The propagator and executive power of this call is just government.

The other is the soul-stirring call of God, Whose spiritual teachings are safeguards of the everlasting glory, the eternal happiness and illumination of the world of humanity, and cause attributes of mercy to be revealed in the human world and the life beyond.

This second call is founded upon the instructions and exhortations of the Lord and the admonitions and altruistic emotions belonging to the realm of morality which, like unto a brilliant light, brighten and illumine the lamp of the realities of mankind. Its penetrative power is the Word of God.
… until material achievements, physical accomplishments and human virtues are reinforced by spiritual perfections, luminous qualities and characteristics of mercy, no fruit or result shall issue therefrom, nor will the happiness of the world of humanity, which is the ultimate aim, be attained. For although, on the one hand, material achievements and the development of the physical world produce prosperity, … on the other hand dangers, severe calamities and violent afflictions are imminent. … when thou lookest at the orderly pattern of kingdoms, cities and villages, with the attractiveness of their adornments, the freshness of their natural resources, the refinement of their appliances, the ease of their means of travel, … thou wouldst conclude that civilization conduceth to the happiness and the progress of the human world. Yet shouldst thou turn thine eye to the discovery of destructive and infernal machines, … it would become evident and manifest … that …Progress and barbarism go hand in hand, unless material civilization be confirmed by Divine Guidance, by the revelations of the All-Merciful and by godly virtues, and be reinforced by spiritual conduct, by the ideals of the Kingdom and by the outpourings of the Realm of Might.
(]Selections from the Writings of Abdu’l-Baha, *p. 283

)

I believe that Bahais and Catholics can work side by side (and sometimes, together) **both **to propagate the ideal of the oneness of humanity, and to still the fears and prejudices that make people susceptible to populist politicians who promote othering, and in spiritualising the masses. This spiritual programme is not, as I read Abdu’l-Baha’s words, the exclusive work of the Bahais. That would be totally unrealistic. What matters is “godly virtues”, and “spiritual conduct.” These are the soft infrastructure of civilization.

Naturally, it will help if one believes that a better world, both materially and morally, is indeed possible. Which takes us back to Caritas in veritate.

 

[IgnatianPhilo]

The same fears would apply to the formation of a national government. And they were to some extent justified: as modern nations formed out of feudal conglomerations, the state got a great deal more capacities for good and ill, and society was freed from internal wars and lawlessness and became more capable. The nations that did this first “progressed” enormously, and started to impose themselves on those who had not formed modern nation states, who in turn had to modernise or go under. The result was a world of nation-states, with mechanised warfare and mass armies and no law to restrain them. Where poverty and small populations and limited transportation had limited the violence of the feudal states, the modern nation states could mechanise slaughter against one another in a big way. That world was just coming in the life of Baha’u’llah, and he saw where it was leading. He wanted to restrain the nation states by a system of law; there really is no plan B for this. Feudalism and micro-states cannot be recreated, and the anarchy of the system of unrestrained state sovereignty (read: the right to wage war) is obvious. If we have another century like the 20th, we might not be so lucky. The world was very close to nuclear annihilation. So basically, the world has no choice, and is in fact developing in the direction of Baha’u’llah’s plan or something like it.

It might be fruitful to compare and contrast the key ideas of Caritas in veritate with the Bahai idea of a new world order.

The Bahai plan has two simultaneous (not successive) “calls” or processes. The one, in which the actors are mainly states, leads towards the “lesser” (i.e., temporal) peace, which is the rule of law among nations, through which war is banned and vast resources are freed up for the abolition of poverty and the progress of individuals. The second is the “spiritualisation of the masses,” leading towards the “greater” (i.e., inward and moral) peace. Temporal civilization without moral civilization can achieve only limited effects.

Abdu’l-Baha summed this up:

I believe that Bahais and Catholics can work side by side (and sometimes, together) **both **to propagate the ideal of the oneness of humanity, and to still the fears and prejudices that make people susceptible to populist politicians who promote othering, and in spiritualising the masses. This spiritual programme is not, as I read Abdu’l-Baha’s words, the exclusive work of the Bahais. That would be totally unrealistic. What matters is “godly virtues”, and “spiritual conduct.” These are the soft infrastructure of civilization.

Naturally, it will help if one believes that a better world, both materially and morally, is
indeed possible. Which takes us back to Caritas in veritate.

History and current reality goes to show that the divisions are impossible to mend without killing the other. You really think the islamic world would tolerate the west or bahai intentions a one world government (which would inevitably like all governments fail).

The world is not developing according to your prophet’s plan, in fact secularism of the west is directly against your prophet’s will. Abortion is trying and is becoming more common and more accepted. Homosexuality is gradually becoming normal in western society and thats not to mention socieities and countries like China or North korea. Which persecute its own inhabitants (forced abortion and absolute dedication to the state). The bahai ideal is nice, but it is the thing any should hope for. I would sooner hope for God to put to rights all evil with one mighty act that is described in the bible, than rely on men to do it. There is no reason to believe the world is getting better unless you ignore all the bad and focus only on the good, which is what the bahai tend to do.

 

[IgnatianPhilo]

You already know that we don’t believe God incarnates Himself in the flesh…

We don’t venerate ikons or images of Jesus, Mary or other. We don’t burn incense or light candles in front of altars. As you know we have no priests and no one performs priestly functions as in rituals like Baptism, Eucharist, etc.

When we pray we can focus our thoughts on the Manifestation and pray through the Manifestation to God or we can pray directly to God

We don’t worship the Manifestation(s)…

Baha’is worship God…Our prayers are directed to God. A sample of the kind of prayers you would hear at a Baha’i gathering follows:

"O God my God! I beg of Thee by the ocean of Thy healing, and by the splendors of the Daystar of Thy grace, and by Thy Name through which Thou didst subdue Thy servants, and by the pervasive power of Thy most exalted Word and the potency of Thy most august Pen, and by Thy mercy that hath preceded the creation of all who are in heaven and on earth, to purge me with the waters of Thy bounty from every affliction and disorder, and from all weakness and feebleness.

"Thou seest, O my Lord, Thy suppliant waiting at the door of Thy bounty, and him who hath set his hopes on Thee clinging to the cord of Thy generosity. Deny him not, I beseech Thee, the things he seeketh from the ocean of Thy grace and the Daystar of Thy loving-kindness.

“Powerful art Thou to do what pleaseth Thee. There is none other God save Thee, the Ever-Forgiving, the Most Generous.”

***~ Baha’u’llah

Usually we recite prayers revealed by Baha’u’llah, the Bab and Abdul-Baha…We can voice our own prayer…* We can read prayers from the Holy Scripturessuch as the Qur’an or the Bible.

Why have you ignored my fundamental question? Do you honour your creator? I wish bahais would answer the questions asked instead of trying to avoid answering them. Do you submit that you must pick up your cross and die for the sake of Jesus? That Jesus in the gospels draws attention to himself as if he were important? IF you can’t honour your creator, how can you honour God? If you cannot reflect in your worship your salvation is due to the one eternal high priest, what can you worship exactly? Is the person whom you will be judged by not worthy of mentioning in your prayers?

 

[Servant19]

Does anyone know when a thief will come in the night? No. If we did we could prevent him from breaking in. Does anyone know when the return of Jesus will take place? No. We must keep our souls in the state of grace at all times, we must be prepared, because it might happen at any moment. The same is true for those of us who will die before he returns. For those who have not amended their lives today, it is doubtful that they will do so tomorrow.

Please be aware that logic dictates that a “thief in the night” does not allow the housekeeper to know when he is coming. You are correct Steve.
What is not being asserted is that when a thief does come in the night, it does not come with a loud clapping of drums, noise, lights and a huge whoohaaa.
The housekeeper is almost always “unaware” of the thief when he comes, during his stay, and his departure.

Its a “thief in the night”, not a “clumsy thief who wakes everyone up in the night”

 

[PRmerger]

nazarenespace.com/page/semikhah

Ummm…clearly this is some wacky fringe group’s website, Servant. I would no more trust that this is representative of Judaism, than this website is representative of Catholicism.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Semikhah

NOWHERE does the above say that Judaism views Tradition as the Word of God.



And even if the rabbinic tradition can indeed be authoratitive, (which is not the same as being the Word of God, which is the Catholic POV) they were not given the charism of infallibility. (Unless you have a source–a legitimate one, BTW–that says that they were infallible??)

Thus, their rejection of Christ means nothing, as far as this discussion goes. They were clearly deadly mistaken in rejecting Christ as Messiah.

 

[arthra]

Six questions asked by the IgnatianPhilo with responses in italics:

Why have you ignored my fundamental question?

(1) Do you honour your creator?

*God is the Creator and we worship Him… **“I bear witness O my God that Thou hast created me to know Thee and to worship Thee.”

*bahaiprayers.org/obligshort.htm
I wish bahais would answer the questions asked instead of trying to avoid answering them.

(2) Do you submit that you must pick up your cross and die for the sake of Jesus?

*Beseech ye the one true God to grant that ye may taste the savor of such deeds as are performed in His path, and partake of the sweetness of such humility and submissiveness as are shown for His sake. Forget your own selves, and turn your eyes towards your neighbor. Bend your energies to whatever may foster the education of men. Nothing is, or can ever be, hidden from God. If ye follow in His way, His incalculable and imperishable blessings will be showered upon you. This is the luminous Tablet, whose verses have streamed from the moving Pen of Him Who is the Lord of all worlds. Ponder it in your hearts, and be ye of them that observe its precepts.

~ Baha’u’llah, Gleanings from the Writings of Baha’u’llah, p. 9*

(3) That Jesus in the gospels draws attention to himself as if he were important?

*Indeed…

We, in truth, have sent Him Whom We aided with the Holy Spirit (Jesus Christ) that He may announce unto you this Light that hath shone forth from the horizon of the will of your Lord, the Most Exalted, the All-Glorious, and Whose signs have been revealed in the West.

~ Baha’u’llah, The Proclamation of Baha’u’llah, p. 18

*(4) If you can’t honour your creator, how can you honour God?

*God was our Creator and we honor Him:

Pay thou no heed to the humiliation to which the loved ones of God have in this Day been subjected. This humiliation is the pride and glory of all temporal honor and worldly elevation. What greater honor can be imagined than the honor conferred by the Tongue of the Ancient of Days when He calleth to remembrance His loved ones in His Most Great Prison? The day is approaching when the intervening clouds will have been completely dissipated, when the light of the words, “All honor belongeth unto God and unto them that love Him,” will have appeared, as manifest as the sun, above the horizon of the Will of the Almighty.*

Ere long the world and all that is therein shall be as a thing forgotten, and all honor shall belong to the loved ones of thy Lord, the All-Glorious, the Most Bountiful.

~ *“Gleanings from the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh”, sec. 140, pp. 305-6
*
(5) If you cannot reflect in your worship your salvation is due to the one eternal high priest, what can you worship exactly?

We worship God.

(6) Is the person whom you will be judged by not worthy of mentioning in your prayers?

*We are judged by God…

"Fear God, thy Creator and thy Fashioner, and transgress not against Him,…"*

~ Baha’u’llah, The Summons of the Lord of Hosts, p. 28

 

[eddie_too]

this thousand year cycle thing the bahai proclaim, what is its significance in the big picture of human reality?

 

[rinnie]

Rinnie,
. Please allow me to do my best to clarify my understanding of the Baha’i view of what is commonly referred to as the Trinity, a term which we do not normally use, but which has useful application for explanation of the relationship between God, His Messengers, and the Holy Spirit.

. Baha’is view God as infinitely beyond corporeal existence, His ultimate essence and reality is beyond the comprehension of men. What can be comprehended by men is the Word of God sent to us from age to age to reflect His glory and show us the Way, His Way for us, that we may live according to His Laws and submit our free-will to His will in obedience to Him, and thus grow and blossom as the fruits of His vineyard.

. We often use the analogy of the sun, a perfect mirror, and the rays … as a metaphor for God, His Manifestation, and the Holy Spirit. So in this analogy the sun does not come down to earth, but rather a perfect mirror appears which gives us as much light as we can accept. If the sun came to earth, we would be fried to a crisp, but a dose of pure sunlight can be accepted and we may receive the light of the spirit by this means.

. Insofar as Baha’is stating that we do not identify Jesus as God, this means we say that the mirror is not the sun, although it perfectly reflects the light and heat of the sun. Also, if we gaze at the mirror, we do in fact gaze at the sun. Thus, we agree with the words of Jesus: “He that hath seen Me hath seen the Father” We believe that fully.

. So even though the mirror is not the sun, it reflects the attributes of the sun. Even though Jesus Himself, the human reality, is not God, to be in His Presence is to be in the Presence of God. We fully believe that. Do you follow?

. So even as we cannot say that God is 5 foot 6 inches tall, weighs 150 pounds (or whatever Jesus was for example) we identify the Person of the Manifestation with those physical attributes while God is beyond all physical limitations. Jesus is His representative, reflecting God’s will and teachings. “These are not My words, but Him that sent Me.” So as a Perfect Mirror of God’s will and purpose, He is the vehicle on earth which expresses to humanity God’s love and desire for us.

. When Jesus was crucified, this particular “Mirror” was broken and killed, but God was not broken and killed, and in fact the true reality of Jesus as the Christ was not broken and killed either, for His true reality existed even before His physical body was conceived “Before Abraham was, I am”. If He (Christ) was before Abraham, He was also before the physical person of “Jesus”, for Abraham was before Jesus. So His real identity existed before and apart from an earthly form.

. I hope this helps a little. Thank you.

But see the SON did come down to earth. God made Man. What I hear you more less saying is Jesus had the truth of God but was not God, Which makes sense because you do not agree that Jesus is God and compare him with other prophets. I can get this.

But then you turn around and quote back the word of Jesus before Abraham I AM! How can you say that? The Father and I are One? How do you define that?

How do you explain the scripture If you know me then you will also know my Father. From now on you know him and have seen him.

Jesus said whoever believes in ME will do the works that I do and willl do greater ones than these because I am going to the Father. Whatever you ask in MY name I will do so that the Father may be Glorified in the SON.

Now if Jesus is not God how can we ask in his name and it will be done? Do you not see that the only one who has power is God.

Rather it is through the Son the Father or the Holy Spirit they are all EQUAL. You cannot go to the Father without the Son.

Do you not see how they tie together.

In a little while the world will not see me because I live and you will live. On that day you will realize that I AM IN my Father and you are in me and I in you.

Think about John 14 read it over and over. WE will come to him and make our dwelling in him.

 

[Nick44]

this thousand year cycle thing the bahai proclaim, what is its significance in the big picture of human reality?

My understanding of the ‘big picture’ is that as God promised He would never leave his creatures without guidance, He continues to send to mankind the representatives of Himself.
The cycle of Adam began the cycle of prophecy (with teachings for that day and promises of the future). Baha’is believe that Baha’u’llah has inaugurated the cycle of the fulfillment of all those prophecies. While the Adamic cycle lasted for aprx 6,000 years, this cycle of fulfillment will last for at least 500,000 years. During that time God will continue to send His Manifestations every 1,000 yrs, or so, to update the outward expressions of the same spiritual laws, which never become outdated). As analogy: Parents are motivated by love to have different sets of rules as their children grow.

“This is the changeless Faith of God, eternal in the past, eternal in the future.”
Baha’u’llah

 

[Servant19]

Ummm…clearly this is some wacky fringe group’s website, Servant. I would no more trust that this is representative of Judaism, than this website is representative of Catholicism.

Well I’m disappointed there PR. I put that website in to please you since you obviously love the wacky fringe jobs, like Jose Luis and his comrades. Sorry to disappoint

NOWHERE does the above say that Judaism views Tradition as the Word of God.

http://media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lq4dxeIiuE1qht847.gif

And even if the rabbinic tradition can indeed be authoratitive, (which is not the same as being the Word of God, which is the Catholic POV) they were not given the charism of infallibility. (Unless you have a source–a legitimate one, BTW–that says that they were infallible??)

Thus, their rejection of Christ means nothing, as far as this discussion goes. They were clearly deadly mistaken in rejecting Christ as Messiah.

Well PR, you consider Sacred Tradition to be the Word of God. That’s the interpretation of the Church, that’s all well and good, but you can’t deny the GOD GIVEN AUTHORITY, that Semikhah provides to its Rabbinic recipients.

When Moses passed on His authority, through Semikhah to Joshua, it made Joshua into the Representative of God, and His Word was Gods Word:

“No one will be able to stand against you all the days of your life. As I was with Moses, so I will be with you; I will never leave you nor forsake you.” Joshua 1:5

Semikhah is a method of inheriting Gods authority that is equally as valid as Catholicism’s Traditions, from a Jewish perspective. So their rejection of Jesus as Messiah, through this God-given Tradition is no different to your rejection of Baha’u’llah as the Return of Jesus in the glory of the Father

 

[SteveVH]

Steve, you have misunderstood what I am saying.

When saying that the Kingdom of God is “not of this world” Jesus automatically REDEFINED the meaning of the Kingdom of God according to Jewish context and tradition at that time. Jewish tradition dictated the Messiah to bring in a PHYSICAL Kingdom of God in THIS world, not something “outside of this world”. He would come and instantly ALL JEWS WOULD KNOW ABOUT IT. He will rule with a sword and literally exterminate all gentiles. What happened?

How does Jesus have the right to do that (i.e redefine things), yet Baha’u’llah has no right to REDEFINE the meanings of some Christian traditions?

Hope that now makes sense?

Well I hope that you can understand my confusion. The Baha’i profess an earthly kingdom just as did the Jews. But thank you for explaining. I should have read more closely.

Jesus didn’t redefine things. He fulfilled them. Before Jesus came mankind only had a partial understanding of the revelation of God. Jesus was the fulfillment of God’s revelation to mankind. The Jews were under Roman occupation. It is understandable that their expectations would be to be rescued from their enemies. But this is not what the prophets said; he would not be a king on a white horse; rather he would be born in a stable, the suffering servant who would ride in on a donkey. And there is no indication that the Jews believed that “instantly ALL JEWS WOULD KNOW ABOUT IT”. That is why they asked questions: “Could this be the Messiah?”

Your attempt to draw an analogy between the Jews missing Jesus and Christians missing his second coming in Baha’u’llah falls short on several levels.

First of all, as PR has already pointed out, anyone claiming to be the second coming of Christ could make the same argument. There is nothing that Baha’u’llah has done that is more convincing than any of the others. Yes, he wrote beautifully and there was much truth in what he said. As I pointed out, so did Shakespeare, so that is no measure of divinity.

Secondly, both Sacred Tradition and Sacred Scripture tell us that Christ’s second coming will be an event that that will be the end of human history. There will be a cosmic upheaval, the heavens will be shaken. And then there will truly be a new heaven and a new earth. None of creation will be subject to decay or death. Every tear will be wiped away. The earth as we know it will no longer exist. As I have said before, we will not have to wonder if the Messiah is over here or over there.

“Then if anyone says to you, ‘Behold, here is the Christ,’ or ‘There He is,’ do not believe him. 24"For false Christs and false prophets will arise and will show great signs and wonders, so as to mislead, if possible, even the elect.…” (Matthew 24:23).

We have already discussed the Baha’i interpretation of the end times, which all Christians would reject, so there is no point in covering that ground again. I am only giving the reasons, from our perspective, that we will never accept Baha’u’llah’s claim to be the second coming of Christ.