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eddie_too
Guest
only faith in Jesus comes from God. all other faith is of human or satanic origin.
Reload this Page BAHA'I thread IV - feel free to ask of Baha'i any questions
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arthra
Guest
Eddie… Your again welcome to your opinion … My issue is that you don’t really supply any examples of how the concept of a Manifestation of God can be seen in other religions…
I don’t have a major problem with that because frankly I’ve been studying other religions and have yet to find it…
But it may be you could be yourself unfamiliar with the concept…so I’m going to supply you with an over view here and you can decide for yourself…
I admire the work of a Baha’i scholar named Julio Savi and he’s written about the concept of the Manifestation of God in my view rather well…
This spiritual reality, the First Emanation of the Divine Reality, is reflected in the human reality of these personages, like the sun is reflected in a perfect mirror. They are therefore characterized by a threefold reality:
Material: that is, their bodies, which – like all human bodies – are bound to be born, to grow up, to develop and to die.
Human: that is, their souls, their individualities. In this regard Bahá’u’lláh writes:
*Everyone of them is a mirror of God... All else besides them are to be regarded as mirrors capable of reflecting the glory of these Manifestations Who are themselves the Primary Mirrors of the Divine Being...*'. He writes moreover that the soul of the Manifestation of God is a pure and stainless Soul’99 and Abdu'l-Bahá explains that it is a perfect soul’, `like a mirror wherein the Sun of Reality is reflected… a perfect expression of the Sun’.[10](later)
Divine: that is the Word of God, the Logos. This reality has neither a beginning nor an end; it is eternal, yet it is inferior to God, because it was created by Him.
... this third state is alone partaken of by the divine messengers, although great saints have attained extraordinary pre-eminence and reflect the splendour of the sun,'[15] says Abdu’l-Bahá.These three aspects of the reality of the Manifestation of God are described by `Abdu’l-Bahá through the following metaphor: their material nature is as a niche, their human nature is as the lamp within the niche, their divine nature as the light which emanates from the lamp.[16]
Yuo can read the rest of teh chapter here:
bahai-library.com/books/quest/quest.06.html
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eddie_too
Guest
such flowery words about manifestations of God. interestingly a mere man explains this concept.
even more interesting, none of those bahaullah claims as manifestations ever made such claims about themselves, not noah, not moses, not Jesus, not mohammed.
could this be because bahaullah considered his manifestation to be greater than the others, the others who did not even know that they were manifestations?
even more interesting, none of those bahaullah claims as manifestations ever made such claims about themselves, not noah, not moses, not Jesus, not mohammed.
could this be because bahaullah considered his manifestation to be greater than the others, the others who did not even know that they were manifestations?
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daler
Guest
Steve,
. Ok. This is helpful. Your understanding is that when Jesus appears “the entire world will know the moment it happens, believers and unbelievers alike”
. My question then would be in reference to His coming as “a Thief in the Night”.
. It would seem to me that this would imply that He would appear in the “Night of our sleep” and catch us unaware, which is why He repeatedly warned us to “Watch”
. As to your previous comment about John the Baptist, I agree that He was not the “reincarnation” of Elijah, but that He appeared with the attributes and purpose, the power and authority of Elijah. It think that in essence we agree on that, although I may have stated it insufficiently.
. Nevertheless, the Jews objection was that Elijah went up with a whirlwind into heaven, a very literal interpretation, and did not come down from a literal heaven. Hence, this was a stumbling block to them.
. In the same way, Baha’is believe, although you and I have different understandings, that neither Elijah nor Jesus ascended physically into heaven. Thus, the “Return” of Jesus, like the Return of Elijah, is viewed not as a literal occurrence, but rather as an act of God where those same attributes and purpose, power and authority, are made manifest in the physical realm in the form of another human vessel.
. It would appear that your understanding is that same human vessel must have been preserved and that same physical identity must return, as I understand it, whereas the Baha’i view is more similar to the Return of Elijah, or those attributes associated with Him, are again manifest on earth through the medium of another human birth.
. So our recognition of the “Manifestation” of the One Who said, “Before Abraham was, I am”, is that that same pre-existent One (even pre-human), Who existed prior to taking on a physical human form, exists actually apart from the human form, which is secondary to His Eternal Reality.
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SteveVH
Guest
Does anyone know when a thief will come in the night? No. If we did we could prevent him from breaking in. Does anyone know when the return of Jesus will take place? No. We must keep our souls in the state of grace at all times, we must be prepared, because it might happen at any moment. The same is true for those of us who will die before he returns. For those who have not amended their lives today, it is doubtful that they will do so tomorrow.
Okay.
I would defer to a Jew to state what he or she believes in this regard.
And how is this not reincarnation? Christ became incarnate, once. His human body is now a part of who he is. He did not discard his human body. Rather his human body was glorified for all of eternity. He will not return in a different body.
We believe that Christ’s humanity it is now a part of his eternal, glorified reality.
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arthra
Guest
Why is Abdul-Baha important to us…someone asked? He was the authorized interpreter of His Father’s Writings… He was authorized by Baha’u’llah Himself in His will and Testament.
Understandably people want to know what are the proofs of the Manifestations of God? How are they different from someone who merely has claims that they are Jesus or God Himself…? Of course I’ve met some people who claimed to be Jesus and when there’s really fire works when there are two of them on the same ward!..but that’s another story.
I’ll quote below from the Writings of Baha’u’llah and the words of Abdul-Baha …
From Baha’u’llah:
XX. *Know thou of a certainty that the Unseen can in no wise incarnate His Essence and reveal it unto men. He is, and hath ever been, immensely exalted beyond all that can either be recounted or perceived. From His retreat of glory His voice is ever proclaiming: "Verily, I am God; there is none other God besides Me, the All-Knowing, the All-Wise. I have manifested Myself unto men, and have sent down Him Who is the Day Spring of the signs of My Revelation.
Through Him I have caused all creation to testify that there is none other God except Him, the Incomparable, the All-Informed, the All-Wise."
He Who is everlastingly hidden from the eyes of men can never be known except through His Manifestation, and His Manifestation can adduce no greater proof of the truth of His Mission than the proof of His own Person.
*
~ Baha’u’llah, Gleanings from the Writings of Baha’u’llah, p. 48
But here are some of the proofs noted by Abdul-Baha…
GOD sends Prophets for the education of the people and the progress of mankind. Each such Manifestation of God has raised humanity. They serve the whole world by the bounty of God. The sure proof that they are the Manifestations of God is in the education and progress of the people.
~ Abdu’l-Baha, Abdu’l-Baha in London, p. 42
The proof of the validity of a Manifestation of God is the penetration and potency of His Word, the cultivation of heavenly attributes in the hearts and lives of His followers and the bestowal of divine education upon the world of humanity. This is absolute proof. The world is a school in which there must be Teachers of the Word of God. The evidence of the ability of these Teachers is efficient education of the graduating classes.
~ Abdu’l-Baha, The Promulgation of Universal Peace, p. 340
Adib Taherzadeh has also focused on this proof in his book the Revelation of Baha’u’llah… He is referring to the report of Mirza Tarazu’llah
The greatest proof of the authenticity of the Manifestations of God is the
revelation of the words of God. No one else is capable of
doing this. The holy Word revealed from the heaven of the
Will of the All-Merciful first descends upon the pure and
radiant heart of the Manifestation of God and then is spoken
by Him. In His Tablet to Násiri’d-Dín Sháh, Bahá’u’lláh
confirms this in these words:
‘This thing is not from Me, but
from One Who is Almighty and All-Knowing’[9.]…
I had the great privilege of being present on two occasions when
Tablets were being revealed… The holy words were flowing
from His lips as He paced up and down the room, and His
amanuensis was recording them… It is not easy to describe
the manner in which revelation came to Bahá’u’lláh.(10)
(10) 'Ahang-i-Badi vol. xxiv nos. 7-8
Understandably people want to know what are the proofs of the Manifestations of God? How are they different from someone who merely has claims that they are Jesus or God Himself…? Of course I’ve met some people who claimed to be Jesus and when there’s really fire works when there are two of them on the same ward!..but that’s another story.
I’ll quote below from the Writings of Baha’u’llah and the words of Abdul-Baha …
From Baha’u’llah:
XX. *Know thou of a certainty that the Unseen can in no wise incarnate His Essence and reveal it unto men. He is, and hath ever been, immensely exalted beyond all that can either be recounted or perceived. From His retreat of glory His voice is ever proclaiming: "Verily, I am God; there is none other God besides Me, the All-Knowing, the All-Wise. I have manifested Myself unto men, and have sent down Him Who is the Day Spring of the signs of My Revelation.
Through Him I have caused all creation to testify that there is none other God except Him, the Incomparable, the All-Informed, the All-Wise."
He Who is everlastingly hidden from the eyes of men can never be known except through His Manifestation, and His Manifestation can adduce no greater proof of the truth of His Mission than the proof of His own Person.
*
~ Baha’u’llah, Gleanings from the Writings of Baha’u’llah, p. 48
But here are some of the proofs noted by Abdul-Baha…
GOD sends Prophets for the education of the people and the progress of mankind. Each such Manifestation of God has raised humanity. They serve the whole world by the bounty of God. The sure proof that they are the Manifestations of God is in the education and progress of the people.
~ Abdu’l-Baha, Abdu’l-Baha in London, p. 42
The proof of the validity of a Manifestation of God is the penetration and potency of His Word, the cultivation of heavenly attributes in the hearts and lives of His followers and the bestowal of divine education upon the world of humanity. This is absolute proof. The world is a school in which there must be Teachers of the Word of God. The evidence of the ability of these Teachers is efficient education of the graduating classes.
~ Abdu’l-Baha, The Promulgation of Universal Peace, p. 340
Adib Taherzadeh has also focused on this proof in his book the Revelation of Baha’u’llah… He is referring to the report of Mirza Tarazu’llah
The greatest proof of the authenticity of the Manifestations of God is the
revelation of the words of God. No one else is capable of
doing this. The holy Word revealed from the heaven of the
Will of the All-Merciful first descends upon the pure and
radiant heart of the Manifestation of God and then is spoken
by Him. In His Tablet to Násiri’d-Dín Sháh, Bahá’u’lláh
confirms this in these words:
‘This thing is not from Me, but
from One Who is Almighty and All-Knowing’[9.]…
I had the great privilege of being present on two occasions when
Tablets were being revealed… The holy words were flowing
from His lips as He paced up and down the room, and His
amanuensis was recording them… It is not easy to describe
the manner in which revelation came to Bahá’u’lláh.(10)
(10) 'Ahang-i-Badi vol. xxiv nos. 7-8
(Adib Taherzadeh, The Revelation of Baha'u'llah v 1, p. 36)
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eddie_too
Guest
out of one side of their mouths the bahai claim to revere and love Jesus, out of the other sides of the mouths the bahai tell us that Jesus got it wrong.
is two-faced a better descriptor than both sides of their mouths?
is two-faced a better descriptor than both sides of their mouths?
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SteveVH
Guest
The words and promises of Jesus Christ concerning his own Church.
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SteveVH
Guest
I don’t think anyone asked that. The question was related to the following statement:
I made the point that the Baha’i certainly place their trust and confidence in their own authorities, such as Abdul-Baha. The implication of daler’s statement was that we blindly follow our leaders while the Baha’i rest high upon the mountain with no need for authority. The number of quotes from Baha’i authorities is never ending on this thread, so the statement is more than disingenuous.
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PRmerger
Guest
prmerger,
thanks for expanding my vocabulary with your use of the word inutile. just goes to prove a person is never to old to learn.
It’s one of my favorite words.
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daler
Guest
Steve,
. With all respect, the manner in which I mention comes from the Navajo tradition that when the Promised One (of their religion) appears, according to their own prophecies, the world will be plunged in darkness and at first, only a few would behold the rays of the New Dawn, emanating (spiritually) from Him.
. They do not say that their spiritual authorities would be the first to know, but common souls whose hearts are receptive. This is the station of Peter and other Apostles who, unlike the Pharisees, had no authority.
. Now here is the difficulty faced by people of whatever time and place in religious history, that they are commanded to share the good news, or gospel, with all others. This was commanded by Moses, again by Jesus, and then by Muhammad. When each of these Messengers of God appeared They were opposed most fiercely by the religious “authorities” of their day. So were Their followers.
. This is repeated in the coming of the Bab, Who was imprisoned for several years, tortured, and finally executed publicly in Tabriz, with thousands of His followers massacred. Servant’s cousin is just the latest to testify with his own life that he has beheld the Dawning Light of a New Revelation from God.
. We have found for ourselves, from whatever tradition we dome from, sufficient proofs to acknowledge Baha’u’llah as the latest Manifestation of God to appear in fulfillment of the prophecies of our various traditions and Holy Books. There is nothing disingenuous about testifying that we have seen the Light of the New Day promised by Christ Himself. Indeed, it would be disingenuous to withhold ourselves from proclaiming this truth. Would it not?
. With all respect intended, Steve, what would you do if despite all that you have come to associate with how the Lord is “supposed” to come, and in opposition to the “authorities” who fail to recognize and often attack openly, even viciously, those who bypass them: “if” you had by your own reasons sufficiently satisfied yourself, as have we, how would you then proceed with this knowledge?
. Thank you, as always, for your heartfelt and sincere thoughts and response.
Dale
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SteveVH
Guest
Does anything you said apply to your own authorities whom you seem to heavily rely upon? That is the question, Daler. There are all sorts of religious leaders. There are Muslim leaders who exhort the faithful to kill the infidels. There were Pharisees who were nothing more than hypocrites. This does not impugn all authority.
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daler
Guest
Steve,
. I understand what you are saying, but to clarify, there is no clergy or priesthood in the Baha’i Faith. No individual Baha’i holds any authority and has no such position. While we regard the Bab and Baha’u’llah as essentially the same position as John the Baptist and Christ, Abdul Baha is clearly not identified as a Manifestation of God. I think you understand that part, but what may not be clear is that His position as the Center of the Covenant was the Station conferred upon Him by Baha’u’llah in His Writings.
. In a certain sense this would be similar to the position of Peter in the reference made of Him by Jesus, but with very clear and unambiguous detail. I do not in any way mean to suggest that Peter was not the “Rock upon whom I will build My Church” by saying this, but rather to affirm that it is very clear to Baha’is and is what keeps the Baha’i Faith from splintering:
. "Consider that which We have revealed in Our Most Holy Book: ‘When the ocean of My presence hath ebbed and the Book of My Revelation is ended, turn your faces toward Him Whom God hath purposed, Who hath branched from this Ancient Root.’ The object of this sacred verse is none other except the Most Mighty Branch ‘Abdu’l-Bahá]. "
. from the KITÁB-I-‘AHD (Book of the Covenant) Baha’u’llah
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daler
Guest
Steve,
. If I may further elaborate as briefly as I can, Shoghi Effendi is known as the Guardian of the Bahá’í Faith. He is the eldest grandson of ‘Abdu’l-Bahá, and the great-grandson of the Faith’s prophet founder, Bahá’u’lláh.
. On 28 November 1921, ‘Abdu’l-Bahá passed away peacefully in His sleep. Like His father, Bahá’u’lláh, ‘Abdu’l-Bahá left a clear and explicit will and testament — an extension of the Covenant established by Bahá’u’lláh. In that document, ‘Abdu’l-Bahá appointed His eldest grandson, Shoghi Effendi Rabbani, to succeed Him as the head or “Guardian” of the Bahá’í Faith. The Guardianship was an institution anticipated by Bahá’u’lláh. In this office, Shoghi Effendi was designated as the authoritative interpreter of the Bahá’í teachings. With the passing of Shoghi Effendi in 1957, the line of hereditary leaders of the Bahá’í Faith came to an end.
. The Universal House of Justice is the international and highest governing body of the Faith. It was endowed by Baha’u’llah with the authority to legislate on all matters not specifically laid down in the Baha’i scriptures. In this way, the Universal House of Justice keeps the Baha’i community unified and responsive to the needs and conditions of an evolving world.
. Micah 4:1-5
King James Version (KJV)
4 But in the last days it shall come to pass, that the mountain of the House of the Lord shall be established in the top of the mountains, and it shall be exalted above the hills; and people shall flow unto it.
2 And many nations shall come, and say, Come, and let us go up to the mountain of the Lord, and to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths: for the law shall go forth of Zion, and the word of the Lord from Jerusalem.
3 And he shall judge among many people, and rebuke strong nations afar off; and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks: nation shall not lift up a sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more.
4 But they shall sit every man under his vine and under his fig tree; and none shall make them afraid: for the mouth of the Lord of hosts hath spoken it.
5 For all people will walk every one in the name of his god, and we will walk in the name of the Lord our God for ever and ever.
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IgnatianPhilo
Guest
Yet that same Christ believed and would have confessed in Daniel 12 about the ressurection. The bahai attempt to make Jesus a purely spiritualist teacher ignores the old testament and what Christ himself says and does. Nothing you say has refuted my comment about bahai taking a gnostic approach to things in terms of the value of this world, this world means nothing when compared to the eternal and spiritual world right?
As for the jews, Christ is quite clear that he who denies the son denies the father. The jews do not have the grace of God.
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IgnatianPhilo
Guest
Thank you clarifying sen, but I do believe that Bahai do want a centralized government at the top and a universal language. See I’m skeptical of all such aims for the single reason is that they never work and when one central authority takes the final control of government, things get out of control in general. I would say, is this the bahai idea of the ultimate destiny for the earth to take? Whats next once this stage is reached? Death still reigns supreme, evil will still exist and quite possibly things will be worse (there is no way to believe this world is getting better in terms pleasing to God).
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eddie_too
Guest
the bahai are not christian. they use Jesus Christ and His Church to promote their non-christian beliefs.
the bahai deny that Jesus is the Second Person of the Most Holy Trinity and almighty God, our Creator, by both Nature and Person.
yes, it is a cunning way to proselytize, piggybacking on Jesus teachings while simultaneously changing virtually every single thing Jesus taught as we received those teachings from the apostles.
yes, those bahai who understand the duplicity in trying to aggrandize themselves, bahaullan and bahaism are unscrupulous and dangerous to the salvation of souls.
pray for both the misled bahai and those whom the bahai attack vigorously in an attempt to draw souls away from the saving power of Christ.
there is no forgiveness of sins in bahaism.
the bahai deny that Jesus is the Second Person of the Most Holy Trinity and almighty God, our Creator, by both Nature and Person.
yes, it is a cunning way to proselytize, piggybacking on Jesus teachings while simultaneously changing virtually every single thing Jesus taught as we received those teachings from the apostles.
yes, those bahai who understand the duplicity in trying to aggrandize themselves, bahaullan and bahaism are unscrupulous and dangerous to the salvation of souls.
pray for both the misled bahai and those whom the bahai attack vigorously in an attempt to draw souls away from the saving power of Christ.
there is no forgiveness of sins in bahaism.
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IgnatianPhilo
Guest
I don’t see the answer to my central point. In your worship is Jesus at all honoured as your creator and the saviour of your soul who will judge you when everything is said and done? This is what the gospels say and bahai don’t seem to give a clear answer to this idea. Do you accept and honour Jesus for creating you?
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IgnatianPhilo
Guest
You bahai have been responded to many times when it comes to the comforter but you consistently ignore the answer and represent the same standard argument. OH THIS MUST BE MIRZA HUSSAIN.
No, it is not mirza Hussain as Jesus is speaking to his apostles and what will happen once he has gone. Under the bahai interpretation the apostles were left friendless, that is one of Jesus’ main points to his apostles, that this something given to them in his physical absence which makes perfect sense when we read Luke-acts. in fact Jesus goes so far as to tell us whom the comforter is.
John 14 : 26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.
Look what he says about the comforter before the verses you quote.
John 14 : 16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever; 17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.
The comforter, whom is the spirit of truth is already with the apostles but they have not had him imbue him yet as would happen at Pentacost. Address this bahai before you say “JEsus promised Mirza hussain.”
I would also just as soon as point out that Muslims use the exact same verse to say “muhammad is the comforter.” That interpretation (ignoring the attributes of the comforter and who Jesus directly says the comforter is) is just as valid as the bahai. Why must Mirza Hussain be the comforter as opposed to Muhammad? As opposed to Montanus? As opposed to anyone else who claims to be the comforter?
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SteveVH
Guest
So, in essence, you have nothing but the writings of Baha’u’llah as your authority and their interpretation by Abdul-Baha. And, as I understand it, you are not to vary from either the writings or their interpretation. I see no difference between this and your basic “Bible Church” who adhere to the writings and the interpretation of their pastor.
The Catholic Church, on the other hand, was given unprecedented authority by Christ himself. Jesus said, concerning those he put in charge of his Church, “He that hears you hears me, and he that despises you despises me, and he that despises me despises him that sent me.” (Luke 10:16) It is the Church that has the authority to teach and to interpret both Sacred Scripture and Sacred Tradition.
As I said before, we rely on the words and promises of Christ concerning his Church and thus submit to Church’s judgment in matters of faith and morals. The voice of the Church is the voice of Christ.
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