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PRmerger
Guest
Yeah. What Steve said. :tiphat:
Reload this Page BAHA'I thread IV - feel free to ask of Baha'i any questions
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daler
Guest
Let us be honest here. If we had each of us, for the first time, having no prior experience or contact with the inherent information of the traditions to propel us in one direction or another, just been presented with the claims of Moses, Jesus, and Baha’u’llah, as well as a mix of the classic street clowns such as Mr de Jesus, David Khoresh, or Sun Myung Moon, for example, and we were given nothing but their writings for the first time, with no added miracles which could not today be proven, on what basis would we make sense of the claims of any of them other than their ability to articulate with clarity, eloquence, and consistency at a level which exceeds the capacity of normal human words.
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eddie_too
Guest
i was reading and again i find the speaking out of both sides of the mouth from a bahai.
i read a bahai write that the bahai are NOT political. then i remembered another bahai saying that bahaullah declared the world should have only one government.
am i the only one who sees the gross contradiction between the two bahai proclaimers?
i mean seriously, how does a person say their beliefs are not political while simultaneously saying their beliefs direct them to work toward a one world government?
seriously???
i read a bahai write that the bahai are NOT political. then i remembered another bahai saying that bahaullah declared the world should have only one government.
am i the only one who sees the gross contradiction between the two bahai proclaimers?
i mean seriously, how does a person say their beliefs are not political while simultaneously saying their beliefs direct them to work toward a one world government?
seriously???
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PRmerger
Guest
This is an inutile scenario/hypothetical, daler, for Catholics to entertain.
Again, we are not Sola Scriptura advocates.
Perhaps if you were on an evangelical Christian forum your premise would be a catalyst for interesting dialogue.
However, your hypothetical is useless for Catholics, for we do not distill our doctrines from writings.
Our faith comes from the Apostles, given once for all, to the Church.
We do not go by writings alone. We understand the writings through the lens of Sacred Tradition.
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daler
Guest
Eddie,
. We are promoting that which Isaiah foretold.
“Of the increase of His government their shall be no end.”
. We are also speaking of that which Jesus prayed:
“Thy Kingdom come, Thy will be done, on earth as it is in Heaven.”
. Baha’is are not involved in partisan politics, as "part"isan politics divides people and the watchword for Baha’is is unity:
“Be as fingers of one hand.”
“Ye are the fruits of one tree and the leaves of just one branch.”
“Glory not in this that you love your country. Rather glory in this, that you love mankind.”
“The earth is but one country. Mankind its citizens.”
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PRmerger
Guest
Incidentally, what you have proposed above is similar to what JWs propose. They say: if we were living on a desert island and a Bible were dropped into our laps, would we be able to extract the dogma of the Trinity from simply reading this Book?
And, like your hypothetical, this scenario is inutile to Catholics.
Perhaps if a JW was in dialogue with a fundamentalist, Bible-Alone Christian his scenario would be a pointed one. He would be correct in saying, “If you read the Bible alone you will never conclude that God is a Triune God”.
Unfortunately, it is not a good premise for a JW to use when in discussions with Catholics, for we will say, “We don’t use the Bible alone to extract our dogma of the Trinity. That comes from the Apostles, through the Word of God. Not from the Bible alone.”
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SteveVH
Guest
Very good point. This dilemma is played out among many non-Catholic Christians today as well as non-Christian religions who purport some belief in Jesus Christ. They have nothing but writings with which to determine the truth. The result is 30,000 plus denominations of Christianity. The reason? We are left only with our human capabilities and finite minds and we will always fail at some point.
This is exactly why Christ founded his Church under the divine protection of the Holy Spirit. So that the truth that he revealed to the Apostles would be preserved from error. I have stated before that Catholicism is not a religion of the Book, but rather an intimate encounter with the living God which is found in his Church.
You wish to level the playing field by stripping away Christ’s miracles as something not to be considered because they cannot be proven today. It ignores the fact that we have credible witnesses to his miracles, most importantly the Resurrection.
The true test, according to you, is the “ability to articulate with clarity, eloquence, and consistency at a level which exceeds the capacity of normal human words.” Could we not say the same thing about Shakespeare?
You should really do yourself a favor and read something “Catholic”. There are a lot of choices. You could start with any encyclical from our recent Popes. And then tell me whether or not these writings are articulated with clarity, eloquence and consistency which exceeds the capacity of normal human words. And then go to the early Church Fathers and read Clement, Ignatius, Polycarp, Augustine, Aquinas and the rest of the gang. You want consistency? No one has been as consistent in their dogmas and doctrines as the Catholic Church and we have 2000 years of history to prove it. Whether or not Baha’i beliefs will be consistent even in another 50 years is yet to be shown.
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eddie_too
Guest
i think any man, including bab and bahaullah, who refuses to worship Jesus of Nazareth as their Lord and Savior does not possess enough of the truth in their minds and hearts to be considered wise in any respect. to follow such men, men who clearly have a minimal understanding of this creation, is ill advised and will most likely lead such followers away from their hearts’ desire.
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eddie_too
Guest
from whom did bab and bahaullah receive their authority to represent almighty God?
we catholics know where our leaders received such authority. they received it from God Himself who gave it to His apostles and who, the apostles, gave to their designated successors.
bab and bahaullah are self-proclaimed authorities, just like hundreds if not thousands of other men throughout history. other examples of men like bahaullah, are mohammed, joseph smith, jim jones, david koresh, et. al.
a person might ask where did Jesus get His authority. Jesus is Perfect Being. that is all the authority He needs. none of the others are or were Perfect Being.
we catholics know where our leaders received such authority. they received it from God Himself who gave it to His apostles and who, the apostles, gave to their designated successors.
bab and bahaullah are self-proclaimed authorities, just like hundreds if not thousands of other men throughout history. other examples of men like bahaullah, are mohammed, joseph smith, jim jones, david koresh, et. al.
a person might ask where did Jesus get His authority. Jesus is Perfect Being. that is all the authority He needs. none of the others are or were Perfect Being.
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Servant19
Guest
So what makes you think that the teachings of the Catholic Church have any more divinity than the words and teachings of Jose Luis?
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eddie_too
Guest
Jesus did not teach that He was one of many manifestations of God. that is what bahaullah taught.
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daler
Guest
Does not Sacred Tradition speak of the Return of Christ? Does not Christ Himself say that He will come like a Thief in the Night? Does not Jesus repeatedly say to you: “Watch!”
Now for those of us who have arrived at a point where we believe the prophecies to have been fulfilled, we have a duty, as did the early Jews, Christians, and Muslims, to make known what has been given to us.
I would suspect that if, from the “top down”, those who hold authority and claim to be the repositories of the “Sacred Traditions” were to conclude, whether fulfillment was taken to be the coming of Baha’u’llah or someone else, that the “masses” would accept their conclusion. This, however, has never been the case in religious history, for the divines in every age have resisted the Prophets and Messengers, in “every case”.
Hence, for those waiting to be told of the Lord’s coming who expect and put their confidence in their trusted authorities, the wait shall be in fact “forever”, while for those who have been high upon the mountain of search and have claimed to see the dawning of the Light in its earliest glimmerings upon the horizon, these shall be amongst the few who first sound the alarm.
In the latter case, historically, these have also been the first to fall in their positions on the front lines of every Dispensation and their testimony rejected, their martyrs sacrificed, their bodies pelted with stones, or themselves been the recipients of insults hurled, at all times, historically, by “the faithful” of the past religious Dispensations.
All we can do, as declarers of the Light having dawned, is to make our testimony, and say, “We are you, yet from among you we have discerned that which was promised”
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PRmerger
Guest
Yes. These sentiments are indeed part of the deposit of faith.
And yet we know that they do not apply to Bahaullah, as they also do not apply to Mr. de Jesus.
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Servant19
Guest
Where was Jesus born Eddie, Nazareth or Bethlehem?
Also who was His successor, Peter or James the Just?
You also said previously that the Kingdom of God was heralded in by Jesus, it was in the hearts of His lovers and followers. Well now you are making up interpretations to suit your own self.
Ask any Jew at Jesus’ time and there won’t be one who would say that the Kingdom of God was one found in a human heart…it was a literal, physical Kingdom on earth.
So, how was Jesus the Messiah? He never claimed it, so how do you know?
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eddie_too
Guest
it is an interesting, but repeated quite frequently, concept that we should believe in another man because we find his words to be both extraordinary (uncommon in comparison to most other men) and persuasive. this is of course a flawed concept.
how do we know this? because, repeatedly again, we find this flawed concept exercised by others throughout history. the mormons find joseph smith’s words to be extraordinary and persuasive. the members of rev. moon’s church find his words to be extraordinary and persusasive. so did the followers of jim jones, and the followers of david koresh, and the followers of mohammed.
so, while it is not to be rejected that belief should reside in a Person whose words we find to be both extraordinary and persuasive, that criteria alone has proven to be flawed when it is the primary or sole criteria. this is demonstrated quite often and explicitly throughout mankind’s history.
so, if that is the primary criteria used by the bahai, it is inadequate because there is nothing unique about it.
how do we know this? because, repeatedly again, we find this flawed concept exercised by others throughout history. the mormons find joseph smith’s words to be extraordinary and persuasive. the members of rev. moon’s church find his words to be extraordinary and persusasive. so did the followers of jim jones, and the followers of david koresh, and the followers of mohammed.
so, while it is not to be rejected that belief should reside in a Person whose words we find to be both extraordinary and persuasive, that criteria alone has proven to be flawed when it is the primary or sole criteria. this is demonstrated quite often and explicitly throughout mankind’s history.
so, if that is the primary criteria used by the bahai, it is inadequate because there is nothing unique about it.
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SteveVH
Guest
What Jesus is telling us is that we must be prepared for his coming; we cannot just live according to the desires of the flesh, but we must be spiritually prepared at all times to meet him when he comes, for we do not know the hour or the day. It is not a reference to Jesus sneaking back into the world unseen. We have been through this already to the point that re-hashing it is futile.
Yes. And we have the duty to discern as to its validity.
I suppose if we were waiting for anyone but Jesus to return you might have a valid point. Jesus will return as Jesus, not someone else.
Do you not constantly quote from your “authorities”, daler? Are you telling me that your authorities do not matter and that you should have no trust or confidence in them?
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eddie_too
Guest
servant19,
i will dignify your questions with a response unlike you who decided not to answer my question but instead asked a chain of questions as though they were sufficient to answer me.
Jesus was born in Bethlehem.
Jesus made Peter His vicar on earth.
i will have to go back and look at your response because i cannot remember your other quetsions accurately.
i will dignify your questions with a response unlike you who decided not to answer my question but instead asked a chain of questions as though they were sufficient to answer me.
Jesus was born in Bethlehem.
Jesus made Peter His vicar on earth.
i will have to go back and look at your response because i cannot remember your other quetsions accurately.
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Servant19
Guest
No-one said you should follow ONLY the Words and Writings. It’s not an either/or situation. It’s an and/and situation. (As a Catholic you should know this principle well)
Lots and lots of factors come into play. Go study the Bahai history my friend
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daler
Guest
Steve,
. Thank you for your concise response in which you have articulated your position well, for it brings us, I think, to the crux of the matter and focusses with precision the difficulties we face, and may provide a means for examining the areas of which we differ.
. As I understand you, and please correct me if I am wrong in this analysis, one of the essential characteristics and the pillars of your faith upon which it stands is your belief in the unerring ability of the leaders of “His Church” to discern when and where the “Return” shall take place, and until “they”, the leaders of His Church, who have unerring authority, tell you, Steve, that “He has come”, you will not believe in Him, whether He presented Himself to you whether directly or indirectly.
. Please correct me if I am wrong here, for I am being utterly serious and sincere in wanting to understand your position which is, if I am following what you are saying, that “He Himself” appearing before you would not be a sufficient proof for you without the accompaniment of, and the support of, the leaders of the Church to acknowledge Him first.
. Is this your position and, if so, how would this differ from the human fallibility of the Pharisees and leaders of the Jewish Church who, at the time Jesus, the Lord of the Vineyard, appeared before them 2000 years ago? For they, too, regarded themselves as the unerring leaders, preserved from error, who would indeed be the first to recognize. Yet having failed to recognize John the Baptist as the promised Return of Elijah, this justification alone was sufficient for them to reject Jesus as the Messiah.
. If you will kindly examine the major topics and answer them one by one I would be most appreciative and then we can proceed from there. Thank you so much for the clarity with which you posted.
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eddie_too
Guest
servant19,
there are a myriad of reasons to believe Jesus was the Messiah, but remember we catholics do not just believe Jesus is the Anointed One. we believe He is our Creator.
reasons: 1) He offered His life for our salvation; 2) He resurrected Himself from the dead; 3) He said He came to draw all men to Himself; 4) He worked miracles; 5) He has the words of eternal life; 5) He frees us from our sins; 6) He established a Church through which He and His teachings might remain present to all mankind until the end of time; 7) He fulfilled the jewish prophecies.
those are what i came up with off the top of my head. i imagine other catholics can continue my list.
now again, from where did bahaullah derive his authority?
there are a myriad of reasons to believe Jesus was the Messiah, but remember we catholics do not just believe Jesus is the Anointed One. we believe He is our Creator.
reasons: 1) He offered His life for our salvation; 2) He resurrected Himself from the dead; 3) He said He came to draw all men to Himself; 4) He worked miracles; 5) He has the words of eternal life; 5) He frees us from our sins; 6) He established a Church through which He and His teachings might remain present to all mankind until the end of time; 7) He fulfilled the jewish prophecies.
those are what i came up with off the top of my head. i imagine other catholics can continue my list.
now again, from where did bahaullah derive his authority?
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