Reload this Page BAHA'I thread IV - feel free to ask of Baha'i any questions

[arthra]

Steve,

Just a thought here…

I think to a certain extent there is a re-definition that occurs with each new dispensation… So if you could ask the Jews of the first century or so of Christianity …they would likely tell you that the Christians are distorting the way they see things borrowed and changed things they accepted.

And again we’ve discussed this before as well… we don’t share some of the doctrines and dogmas of the church.

There are numerous references to the Holy Spirit in the Baha’i Writings …here are a few examples…:

*And whenever I chose to hold my peace and be still, lo, the voice of the Holy Ghost, standing on my right hand, aroused me, and the Supreme Spirit appeared before my face, and Gabriel overshadowed me, and the Spirit of Glory stirred within my bosom, bidding me arise and break my silence
*
~ Baha’u’llah, Gleanings from the Writings of Baha’u’llah, p. 103

*Question. – What is the Holy Spirit?

Answer. – The Holy Spirit is the Bounty of God and the luminous rays which emanate from the Manifestations; for the focus of the rays of the Sun of Reality was Christ, and from this glorious focus, which is the Reality of Christ, the Bounty of God reflected upon the other mirrors which were the reality of the Apostles. The descent of the Holy Spirit upon the Apostles signifies that the glorious divine bounties reflected and appeared in their reality. Moreover, entrance and exit, descent and ascent, are characteristics of bodies and not of spirits – that is to say, sensible realities enter and come forth, but intellectual subtleties and mental realities, such as intelligence, love, knowledge, imagination and thought, do not enter, nor come forth, nor descend, but rather they have direct connection.

For example, knowledge, which is a state attained to by the intelligence, is an intellectual condition; and entering and coming out of the mind are imaginary conditions; but the mind is connected with the acquisition of knowledge, like images reflected in a mirror.

Therefore, as it is evident and clear that the intellectual realities do not enter and descend, and it is absolutely impossible that the Holy Spirit should ascend and descend, enter, come out or penetrate, it can only be that the Holy Spirit appears in splendor, as the sun appears in the mirror.

In some passages in the Holy Books the Spirit is spoken of, signifying a certain person, as it is currently said in speech and conversation that such a person is an embodied spirit, or he is a personification of mercy and generosity. In this case, it is the light we look at, and not the glass.

In the Gospel of John, in speaking of the Promised One Who was to come after Christ, it is said in chapter 16, verses 12, 13: “I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now. Howbeit when He, the Spirit of truth, is come, He will guide you into all truth: for He shall not speak of Himself; but whatsoever He shall hear, that shall He speak.”

Now consider carefully that from these words, “for He shall not speak of Himself; but whatsoever He shall hear, that shall He speak,” it is clear that the Spirit of truth is embodied in a Man Who has individuality, Who has ears to hear and a tongue to speak. In the same way the name “Spirit of God” is used in relation to Christ, as you speak of a light, meaning both the light and the lamp. 110
*
~ Abdu’l-Baha, Some Answered Questions, p. 106

 

[SteveVH]

SteveVH - Good to hear from you - Thank you for a reply.

Of course you a free to do as you wish

Consider - Truth can change overnight. I have learned over the years that one must never say never God is the source of all Truth, what we do with His Truth may not be that accurate!

Oh, Tony. Truth never changes. It cannot. You are confusing the existence of objective truth with man’s ability to perceive it.

Could it be that history teaches us that we must be able to let go to get a fuller measure of Truth, do you think the Jews know it all? Why and how can they continue to reject Christ? If you can answer this you can reflect on our current situation!

Regards Tony

Christ teaches that we must let go. We must let go of all those things that keep us from God. We must submit our lives entirely to Jesus Christ.

As for the Jews, you would have to ask them. How about the Muslims? They reject Christ as well. How about the Baha’i? How about 80% of the world which is not Christian?

I don’t know why people reject truth, or fail to see it. Jesus said that narrow was the way and few there be that find it even though he died for everyone. My personal opinion is that the majority of people seek out a religion that suits their own needs and desires. One who seeks the Truth, when he finds it, will conform his life to that truth even when it is not comfortable to do so; even when it goes against his previously held positions.

 

[Jimmy_B]

There have been “religions gone wrong” and there are examples of course that you provided … The test I suppose is for us to investigate and weigh carefully and not simply adopt what we believe based on imitation or because someone in authority has dictated:

It is evident that no vital results are now forthcoming from the customs, institutions and standpoints of the past. In view of this, shall blind imitations of ancestral forms and theological interpretations continue to guide and control the religious life and spiritual development of humanity today? Shall man gifted with the power of reason unthinkingly follow and adhere to dogma, creeds and hereditary beliefs which will not bear the analysis of reason in this century of effulgent reality?

~ Abdu’l-Baha

Exactly!
I know about investigations. Keep in mind that in order to conduct a thorough investigation one must be willing to investigate all leads from any source. In many non-Catholic, Christian religions for example, there is a rejection of “Christian Traditions”. In other words, a rejection of Christian history. If one rejects or ignores the history of any group or organization under investigation, he does so at his own peril and in the case of religion, the potential loss of everlasting life.
Your thoughts?

 

[SteveVH]

Steve,

Just a thought here…

I think to a certain extent there is a re-definition that occurs with each new dispensation… So if you could ask the Jews of the first century or so of Christianity …they would likely tell you that the Christians are distorting the way they see things borrowed and changed things they accepted.

And again we’ve discussed this before as well… we don’t share some of the doctrines and dogmas of the church.

There are numerous references to the Holy Spirit in the Baha’i Writings …here are a few examples…:

I don’t really care if the Baha’i writings are full of references to Jesus and the Holy Spirit. We do not mean the same thing when speaking of them so any conversation we have concerning them is pointless.

If God is truly a Trinity of Persons; Father, Son and Holy Spirit, in the Catholic sense of the word, then why would that reality change in some new dispensation? If Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit are truly God, in and of themselves, should we expect that they would somehow morph into mere creatures in a new dispensation? There are certain spiritual realities that will never change.

 

[IgnatianPhilo]

the bahai are far more like mormons than they are like any christian sect.

just as do the mormons, they use a man to justify telling us that the interpretations of sacred scripture (meaning the Holy Bible as defined by the RCC) that we received from the apostles is wrong. then they ask us to believe that the meanings they give to sacred scripture are more accurate than the ones we received from the apostles.

they then justify changing the interpretations by saying that bahaullah’s teachings require them to reject the teachings of Christ’s apostles.

the most important thing to remember is that the bahai do not believe in the faith we received from the apostles. however, they do, in a perhaps completely innocent way although a quite self-serving way, in keeping with the practices of their bahaullah, pretend that they know Christ better than the apostles knew Christ.

i would recommend that if you know people weak in their christian faith, that you help them avoid any and all encounters with a bahai.

the very fact that they reject the eternal and infinite Son of God, our Lord Jesus Christ, is reason enough for a christian to reject bahaullah and all that he taught. for truly, if anything bahaullah taught agrees with Jesus it is mostly by chance and not by divine inspiration. if God were involved in the teachings of bahaullah, bahaullah would have become RC.

so, i will leave you with this, the teachings of the bahai are not the teachings of the Savior of the World. whether intentionally or not, they serve to keep people away from Christ and that cannot come from God.

Bahais bare more resemblance to gnostic and liberal political thought than anything else I find.

 

[Servant19]

I don’t really care if the Baha’i writings are full of references to Jesus and the Holy Spirit. We do not mean the same thing when speaking of them so any conversation we have concerning them is pointless.

If God is truly a Trinity of Persons; Father, Son and Holy Spirit, in the Catholic sense of the word, then why would that reality change in some new dispensation? If Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit are truly God, in and of themselves, should we expect that they would somehow morph into mere creatures in a new dispensation? There are certain spiritual realities that will never change.

I think the very fact that the Nicene Creed was required to “conclude” what all Christians “should” believe as to the station of Christ is an indication that the Trinity is a man-made doctrine that may not have necessarily reflected the true identity of Jesus.

The questions and heresies that came out of that gathering are numerous.

To use the word of our friend Eddie, it is insulting to scientific approaches to discovering the truth to declare that Absolute Truth was founded via the Nicene Creed

 

[IgnatianPhilo]

I think the very fact that the Nicene Creed was required to “conclude” what all Christians “should” believe as to the station of Christ is an indication that the Trinity is a man-made doctrine that may not have necessarily reflected the true identity of Jesus.

The questions and heresies that came out of that gathering are numerous.

To use the word of our friend Eddie, it is insulting to scientific approaches to discovering the truth to declare that Absolute Truth was founded via the Nicene Creed

Then perhaps you should abandon all things solved by your prophet’s son or the council of universal justice. They existed to clarify things after all and the council still does that today. The idea of the creed being something as defined by men in council yes shows that its contents were man made doesn’t take into consideration the history of the council itself or what the fathers were attempting. For many centuries there were many attempts to have a simple creed and profession of faith for the various Christian communities and the council and subsequently the council of Constantinople put that as one of it’s goals, to define the Christian faith clearly and concisely. They didn’t just invent these ideas, nor did they just say “Jeez, these pagans are just so attached to their polytheism but if only we didn’t have this monotheism holding us back in getting them!” The idea was to clarify what Christians have always professed, first about the son and then later about the spirit and we recognise a development that took place in the way Christian’s expressed their ideas, but we can see what the apostles meant and what the early fathers meant throughout the centuries.

But you tell us where Nicea and Constantinople erred.

 

[arthra]

Exactly!
I know about investigations. Keep in mind that in order to conduct a thorough investigation one must be willing to investigate all leads from any source. In many non-Catholic, Christian religions for example, there is a rejection of “Christian Traditions”. In other words, a rejection of Christian history. If one rejects or ignores the history of any group or organization under investigation, he does so at his own peril and in the case of religion, the potential loss of everlasting life.
Your thoughts?

Well knowing the history of a religion doesn’t mean we would necessarily accept it’s traditions… It means we would know about those traditions and maybe how they developed over time not that we would accept them.

The problem with really ancient traditions is that we don’t really have intact the original sources… likely due say to disruptions caused by war…outright repression… lost sources…translations from say one language to another well knowing there are varying idioms of expression that could be lost or overlooked.

Another approach that’s important to us is weighing the most recent revelation and how it impacts on us and what kinds of issues it addresses… and of course being more recent it has more of it’s history intact.

 

[arthra]

Bahais bare more resemblance to gnostic and liberal political thought than anything else I find.

Here’s another statement that Baha’is are supposed to be resemble “gnostics”… Earlier today someone suggested we were like Mormons…

Gnostics were generally other worldly and believed the world was created by a “Demiurge”… hardly even close to a Baha’i view which is that God created the universe:

Praise be to God! the least change produced in the form of the smallest thing proves the existence of a creator: then can this great universe, which is endless, be self-created and come into existence from the action of matter and the elements?

~ Abdu’l-Baha, Some Answered Questions, p. 6

Of course the early church spent a lot of time dealing with the gnostic heresy…Gnosticism was an early heresy in the church… of course those who opposed it dubbed it a “heresy”… It had to be officially declared a heresy.

Baha’is don’t claim to be Christian and don’t have anything to do with your church hierarchy or history.

 

[daler]

Bahais bare more resemblance to gnostic and liberal political thought than anything else I find.

Contrary to gnosticism, what Baha’u’llah taught is that the knowledge of God comes from the Manifestations of God, Who are themselves the Divine Educators. Sufis, for example, believe that they can bypass the Manifestation of God and attain to the knowledge of God by their own means. Baha’u’llah unequivocally refutes this argument and rejects it in no uncertain terms.

The interpretation of the verse “I am the Way, the Truth, and the Life. No man cometh to the Father but by Me” is the position of the eternal Manifestation of God, through whom people of whatever age, must approach in order to approach God.

As to “liberal political thought”, Baha’is are forbidden to participate in partisan politics. While we must obey the laws of the government where we live, and are encouraged to vote, it is never along any partisan lines.

If by “liberal”, you mean that since its inception in 1844 it has declared the equality of women and men and an end to racial discrimination, this is true from the standpoint of rejecting traditional discrimination against women and minorities.

Other progressive ideas of the Baha’i teachings might also be considered liberal in the context of the old, now outdated, norms which oppressed people and held them back, but again, the Baha’i Faith is not a political movement.

 

[PRmerger]

And how does one know when someone proclaiming to be Divine is not?

Is it possible that there are those proclaiming to be Divine who are not? What do you say of those who reject this self-professed deity?

I think that this guyalso claims to be God Incarnate:

https://encrypted-tbn3.gstatic.com/...pthSo4iXWEGMUmsyWsWSXszqLwtM_wucO__uMp_J4yJf4

I suppose that his followers may claim that you don’t have the spiritual eyes to see his divinity. (Assuming you accept that he is not divine, which he surely isn’t).

How would you respond?

Hiya, daler.

Could you please respond to the above post?

 

[mek42]

I have not followed this thread, nor thread II or III, so apologies if this was asked and answered already.

I’ve just started reading the ebook, “Introduction to the Baha’i Faith” (available free from the Baha’i website). I’m not even through the first page and I have a question. How is the Baha’i principle of unity among men reconciled with the chapter in Genesis that discusses the Tower of Babel, where man was disunified and scattered by God due to man becoming uppity, trying to out do God?

 

[daler]

I have not followed this thread, nor thread II or III, so apologies if this was asked and answered already.

I’ve just started reading the ebook, “Introduction to the Baha’i Faith” (available free from the Baha’i website). I’m not even through the first page and I have a question. How is the Baha’i principle of unity among men reconciled with the chapter in Genesis that discusses the Tower of Babel, where man was disunified and scattered by God due to man becoming uppity, trying to out do God?

Mek,
. A very good question. I would suppose that they had a very material conception of God. They thought if they could build a big tower they could go see Him. As they were way off base, God caused confusion amongst them, scattered them by confounding their language and ability to communicate with each other.

. True unity is based upon spiritual understanding, not a material projection. This was their undoing, I suspect.

. “Nothing short of the unity of the entire human race will suffice to heal the ills which afflict mankind.” . Baha’u’llah

 

[daler]

Hiya, daler.

Could you please respond to the above post?

First point is in the following:

. “Know thou of a certainty that the Unseen can in no wise incarnate His Essence and reveal it unto men. He is, and hath ever been, immensely exalted beyond all that can either be recounted or perceived. From His retreat of glory His voice is ever proclaiming: “Verily, I am God; there is none other God besides Me, the All-Knowing, the All-Wise. I have manifested Myself unto men, and have sent down Him Who is the Day Spring of the signs of My Revelation. Through Him I have caused all creation to testify that there is none other God except Him, the Incomparable, the All-Informed, the All-Wise.” He Who is everlastingly hidden from the eyes of men can never be known except through His Manifestation, and His Manifestation can adduce no greater proof of the truth of His Mission than the proof of His own Person.”

Second point is in the example given by Jesus Himself:

. “Beholdest thou not the Son of Man seated on the right hand of power and glory?”

Even as those who put their trust in the interpretations of the Pharisees and Jewish authorities failed to discern Truth from error, so it is in every age with those who do the same.

O SON OF SPIRIT!

The best beloved of all things in My sight is Justice; turn not away therefrom if thou desirest Me, and neglect it not that I may confide in thee. By its aid thou shalt see with thine own eyes and not through the eyes of others, and shalt know of thine own knowledge and not through the knowledge of thy neighbor. Ponder this in thy heart; how it behooveth thee to be. Verily justice is My gift to thee and the sign of My loving-kindness. Set it then before thine eyes.

 

[PRmerger]

First point is in the following:

. “Know thou of a certainty that the Unseen can in no wise incarnate His Essence and reveal it unto men. He is, and hath ever been, immensely exalted beyond all that can either be recounted or perceived. From His retreat of glory His voice is ever proclaiming: “Verily, I am God; there is none other God besides Me, the All-Knowing, the All-Wise. I have manifested Myself unto men, and have sent down Him Who is the Day Spring of the signs of My Revelation. Through Him I have caused all creation to testify that there is none other God except Him, the Incomparable, the All-Informed, the All-Wise.” He Who is everlastingly hidden from the eyes of men can never be known except through His Manifestation, and His Manifestation can adduce no greater proof of the truth of His Mission than the proof of His own Person.”

Second point is in the example given by Jesus Himself:

. “Beholdest thou not the Son of Man seated on the right hand of power and glory?”

Even as those who put their trust in the interpretations of the Pharisees and Jewish authorities failed to discern Truth from error, so it is in every age with those who do the same.

O SON OF SPIRIT!

The best beloved of all things in My sight is Justice; turn not away therefrom if thou desirest Me, and neglect it not that I may confide in thee. By its aid thou shalt see with thine own eyes and not through the eyes of others, and shalt know of thine own knowledge and not through the knowledge of thy neighbor. Ponder this in thy heart; how it behooveth thee to be. Verily justice is My gift to thee and the sign of My loving-kindness. Set it then before thine eyes.

So if I apply what I think you are saying here, these things do apply to Jose Luis de Jesus.

So am I correct in understanding that Bahais believe that Jose Luis de Jesus is also one of the latter manifestations of God?

 

[arthra]

So if I apply what I think you are saying here, these things do apply to Jose Luis de Jesus.

So am I correct in understanding that Bahais believe that Jose Luis de Jesus is also one of the latter manifestations of God?

Merger,

I’m just curious does Jose Luis de Jesus have some appeal to you?

I doubt that it would be a “correct understanding” for Baha’is anyway…

For Baha’is there will not be a future Manifestation after Baha’u’llah until “…no less than a thousand years.”

*The Dispensation of Bahá’u’lláh will last until the coming
of the next Manifestation of God, Whose advent will not
take place before at least “a full thousand years” will have
elapsed.
*
(Baha’u’llah, The Kitab-i-Aqdas, p. 195)

 

[Servant19]

So if I apply what I think you are saying here, these things do apply to Jose Luis de Jesus.

So am I correct in understanding that Bahais believe that Jose Luis de Jesus is also one of the latter manifestations of God?

To be honest PR, you are barking up the wrong tree

Why would anyone who is a Jew, or a Hindu think that Jesus is Divine?

In terms of Baha’i methods to discern a true Prophet from a false Prophet, Mr. Jose Luis fails on the first proof, namely having innate abilities and character as a child.

The Bab and Baha’u’llah were unschooled and acquired their knowledge through God, astounding the divines of their time with their exposition of the mysteries of the Quran and Ingil (Bible) during their school-age years. Mr. Jose Luis was in prison for petty theft as a child and into his youth.

There’s always something that proves Baha’u’llah’s Divinity over the many false prophets of our generation.

What was the difference between Jesus and the other messiahs during His time? Simon of Peraea, Menahem ben Judah, Athronges, Vespasian.

What was the difference between Jesus and other miracle workers during His time? Honi the circle worker, Rabbi Hanina Ben Dosa, Appolonius of Tyana (who btw raised a girl from the dead, did he conquer death too?), Rabbi Simon bin Yohi.

What were the differences between these people and Jesus? How do you know?

 

[tonyfish58]

the very fact that they reject the eternal and infinite Son of God, our Lord Jesus Christ.

Eddie - You know that above statement is not true. You have chosen your path on how to beleive in Christ the Baha’is have chosen their path in this belief.

Christ gives the standard required and who are we to correct that!

It is written;

John 15:26 But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me:

& John 16:12 “I have much more to say to you, more than you can now bear. 13 But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all the truth. He will not speak on his own; he will speak only what he hears, and he will tell you what is yet to come. 14 He will glorify me because it is from me that he will receive what he will make known to you. 15 All that belongs to the Father is mine. That is why I said the Spirit will receive from me what he will make known to you.”

This is exactly what Baha’u’llah has done, he has testified of Jesus.

“Know thou that when the Son of Man yielded up His breath to God, the whole of Creation wept with a great weeping. By sacrificing Himself, however, a fresh capacity was infused into all created things. Its evidences, as witnessed in all the peoples of the earth, are now manifest before thee. The deepest wisdom which the sages have uttered, the profoundest learning which any mind hath unfolded, the arts which the ablest hands have produced, the influence exerted by the most potent of rulers, are but manifestations of the quickening power released by His transcendent, His all-pervasive, and resplendent spirit . . . He it is who purified the world. Blessed the man who, with a face beaming with light, hath turned towards Him”. (Gleanings 86)

May your love for Christ grow each day

Regards Tony

 

[IgnatianPhilo]

Here’s another statement that Baha’is are supposed to be resemble “gnostics”… Earlier today someone suggested we were like Mormons…

Gnostics were generally other worldly and believed the world was created by a “Demiurge”… hardly even close to a Baha’i view which is that God created the universe:

Praise be to God! the least change produced in the form of the smallest thing proves the existence of a creator: then can this great universe, which is endless, be self-created and come into existence from the action of matter and the elements?

~ Abdu’l-Baha, Some Answered Questions, p. 6

Of course the early church spent a lot of time dealing with the gnostic heresy…Gnosticism was an early heresy in the church… of course those who opposed it dubbed it a “heresy”… It had to be officially declared a heresy.

Baha’is don’t claim to be Christian and don’t have anything to do with your church hierarchy or history.

There were different sorts of gnostics but one strain of thouhgt that was consistent between them all was the hatred or dislike for the physical world. Bahai say that the physical world is somehow not worthy of being made eternal, all good, denying ressurection and in that way you are very much in line with gnostic thought or at least platonist thought on the inferiority of the physical world.

But heres the thing, bahai claims that they have the truth, the thing is the true Christians (which could not be the gnostics according to the quran and teachings of your prophets) would have found bahai ideas a fundamental denial of whom Christ is. Certaintly the early church isn’t the friend of the bahai.

 

[IgnatianPhilo]

Contrary to gnosticism, what Baha’u’llah taught is that the knowledge of God comes from the Manifestations of God, Who are themselves the Divine Educators. Sufis, for example, believe that they can bypass the Manifestation of God and attain to the knowledge of God by their own means. Baha’u’llah unequivocally refutes this argument and rejects it in no uncertain terms.

The interpretation of the verse “I am the Way, the Truth, and the Life. No man cometh to the Father but by Me” is the position of the eternal Manifestation of God, through whom people of whatever age, must approach in order to approach God.

As to “liberal political thought”, Baha’is are forbidden to participate in partisan politics. While we must obey the laws of the government where we live, and are encouraged to vote, it is never along any partisan lines.

If by “liberal”, you mean that since its inception in 1844 it has declared the equality of women and men and an end to racial discrimination, this is true from the standpoint of rejecting traditional discrimination against women and minorities.

Other progressive ideas of the Baha’i teachings might also be considered liberal in the context of the old, now outdated, norms which oppressed people and held them back, but again, the Baha’i Faith is not a political movement.

You want a one world state in which things are directed from one governmental body top down right? To which individual liberty and identity are confused into one world wide Nation right? Thats liberal in my opinion, although since you are forbidden to enter politics that will never happen, thus the goal of the bahai is impossible.

As for gnostics, you mainly agree with them as to the rejection of the material world being good, the only escape for you is the release of your soul into death because unlike the spiritual world this world will always have evil in it and God will never change this world, so the afterlife is your only hope.

That being said, Jesus doesn’t say “the manifestation is the way of the truth and light,” he said “I am the way of the truth and the light.” You could intrepret Jesus’s many statements which draw attention to himself as to the manifestation but the thing is none of the other prophets spoke like this, that is the real legitimate prophets and not unhistorical figures like Krishna. For whose sake are the Christians supposed to take up their cross for? Christ’s right?