Reload this Page BAHA'I thread IV - feel free to ask of Baha'i any questions

[SteveVH]

Merger:

It means for us that Mary was pure and innocent of any sin when Jesus was conceived… without a natural father in a miraculous way.

It does not that we Baha’is view normal conjugal relations as “dirty” in any way…

How’s that?

Arthra, it has nothing to do at all with Jesus being conceived without a natural father in a miraculous way. It means that Mary was born free from original sin. It is Mary’s conception that was immaculate. She had to be pure. She was to be the mother of God.

 

[daler]

http://gifsforum.com/images/gif/facepalm/grand/disappointed_gif_44556.gif

Mary was conceived through marital relations, Jcc.

Are you really here saying that you still don’t know what the teaching of the Immaculate Conception is, after all of this discussion?

Sen McGlinn, where are you? Can you please offer an example of a Bahai who actually can articulate what the IC is???

When I was a kid, I used to go pheasant hunting, walking through corn fields, hoping for a shot at a rooster. Sometimes the cockleburs would be so thick on my socks and boots and pants that they would stick together and cause me to stumble.

Also, walking in mud, instead of staying on the road, has a way of slowing you down, and stopping you altogether. Trudging through the fields, with several pounds of mud on each foot, just keeps one from going anywhere at all.

This is how I view so much of these discussions which in reality are diversions and distractions which withhold people from the true path and purpose of their lives (in my opinion).

When people spin and weave webs so often, they end up catching themselves, perhaps unwittingly, and fail to proceed to the destiny which a loving God surely intends. It is both comical and tragic to watch, and I gaze with wonder at these lesser fascinations which absorb distracted souls who surely have a much greater capacity to soar above the cockleburs and muddy fields which mire their wings and prevent them from the heights prepared for all who are detached from aught else but Him. Is this not so?

1. O YE PEOPLE THAT HAVE MINDS TO KNOW AND EARS TO HEAR!

The first call of the Beloved is this: O mystic nightingale! Abide not but in the rose-garden of the spirit. O messenger of the Solomon of love! Seek thou no shelter except in the Sheba of the well-beloved, and O immortal phoenix! Dwell not save on the mount of faithfulness. Therein is thy habitation, if on the wings of thy soul thou soarest to the realm of the infinite and seekest to attain thy goal.

1. O SON OF SPIRIT!

The bird seeketh its nest; the nightingale the charm of the rose; whilst those birds, the hearts of men, content with transient dust, have strayed far from their eternal nest, and with eyes turned towards the slough of heedlessness are bereft of the glory of the divine presence. Alas! How strange and pitiful; for a mere cupful, they have turned away from the billowing seas of the Most High, and remained far from the most effulgent horizon.

The Hidden Words of Baha’u’llah, (from the Persian)

 

[SteveVH]

On this point you should consider that not everyone is a Catholic.

Above, you properly capitalize “Immaculate Conception.” The quote written on behalf of Shoghi Effendi (not by him) does not capitalize immaculate. Therefore the term was not being used in the sense used by Catholics. It is not being devious or ignorant, it is making use of a term in a different way than Catholics would, that is all.

Do you realize how insane this becomes? A Baha’i leader comments on the Catholic doctrine of the Immaculate Conception, demonstrates through his own words that he doesn’t have a clue what the Catholic doctrine is, and then you defend it by saying he is using the term in a different way. He does not have the right to use the term in a different way because it is a Catholic term used to describe a Catholic doctrine.

This is akin to me defining “Manifestation of God” as the glorious nature around us where God reflects his beauty and majesty by making it manifest in his creation. Therefore when the Baha’i refer to Baha’u’llah as a Manifestation of God they are incorrect because it only refers to the world around us and not to any specific person. A beautiful cloud formation is a manifestation of God because that is how I have chosen to define it. I’m just using the term in a different way. Is that acceptable to you?

 

[SteveVH]

When I was a kid, I used to go pheasant hunting, walking through corn fields, hoping for a shot at a rooster. Sometimes the cockleburs would be so thick on my socks and boots and pants that they would stick together and cause me to stumble.

Also, walking in mud, instead of staying on the road, has a way of slowing you down, and stopping you altogether. Trudging through the fields, with several pounds of mud on each foot, just keeps one from going anywhere at all.

This is how I view so much of these discussions which in reality are diversions and distractions which withhold people from the true path and purpose of their lives (in my opinion).

When people spin and weave webs so often, they end up catching themselves, perhaps unwittingly, and fail to proceed to the destiny which a loving God surely intends. It is both comical and tragic to watch, and I gaze with wonder at these lesser fascinations which absorb distracted souls who surely have a much greater capacity to soar above the cockleburs and muddy fields which mire their wings and prevent them from the heights prepared for all who are detached from aught else but Him. Is this not so?

Yes, sometimes I wonder how you even stoop to dialogue with us distracted souls who have yet to be enlightened, preferring instead the muddy, cocklebur ridden fields. Really? You gaze with wonder at these lesser fascinations? If this discussion is so far beneath you, I would suggest that you get on to loftier pursuits.

 

[Jimmy_B]

Hi Tony,

I never heard of Baha’i until now . I had to Google it. I found it interesting that in Baha’i they teach -

"…the unity of religion, that all major religions have the same spiritual source and come from the same God;…"

How could it be from the “same source” if the religions disagree? What if one religion considers a certain behavior a sin and the other doesn’t?.. The same goes for Sacraments and so on???

The reason why there are so many different religions and so many different denominations is that they disagree, sometimes on major issues. So, where is the “unity of religion”? What if one religion believes that members of another religion should “convert or die” ?

As, you can see, I can go on and on… there are probably many beliefs found in Baha’i that as a Christian I could agree with but that’s true with other religions. It seems to me that the “unity” described in Baha’i comes down to, those who adhere to the beliefs found in Baha’i and in that sense, Baha’i isn’t any different than any other religion that disagrees with the truth found in the One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church, the only true religion. Right?

I look forward to your response.

Thank you.

 

[Jimmy_B]

Hi Tony,

I never heard of Baha’i until now . I had to Google it. I found it interesting that in Baha’i they teach -

"…the unity of religion, that all major religions have the same spiritual source and come from the same God;…"

How could it be from the “same source” if the religions disagree? What if one religion considers a certain behavior a sin and the other doesn’t?.. The same goes for Sacraments and so on???

The reason why there are so many different religions and so many different denominations is that they disagree, sometimes on major issues. So, where is the “unity of religion”? What if one religion believes that members of another religion should “convert or die” ?

As, you can see, I can go on and on… there are probably many beliefs found in Baha’i that as a Christian I could agree with but that’s true with other religions. It seems to me that the “unity” described in Baha’i comes down to, those who adhere to the beliefs found in Baha’i and in that sense, Baha’i isn’t any different than any other religion that disagrees with the truth found in the One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church, the only true religion. Right?

I look forward to your response.

Thank you.

All truths found in other religions are from God, the difference being, Catholicism is the religion in procession of the full deposit of faith. Where others possess some or partial truths. And some faiths, IMHO are just flat out wrong. Wicca, Satanist’s, The events at Jonestown, the Branch Davidians and those that followed Heaven’s Gait are but a few examples. Does this make sense?

 

[arthra]

Arthra, it has nothing to do at all with Jesus being conceived without a natural father in a miraculous way. It means that Mary was born free from original sin. It is Mary’s conception that was immaculate. She had to be pure. She was to be the mother of God.

Yes I’m aware of the doctrine of your church …which we do not share. You’re aware I believe that we do not accept the doctrine of original sin… The immaculacy we talk about is being innocent of the charges or suspicions of those around her. we don’t believe she was immaculately conceived.

 

[SteveVH]

Yes I’m aware of the doctrine of your church …which we do not share. You’re aware I believe that we do not accept the doctrine of original sin… The immaculacy we talk about is being innocent of the charges or suspicions of those around her. we don’t believe she was immaculately conceived.

Read my posts above. The Baha’i do not have the right to give a different meaning to a Catholic term.

 

[arthra]

Hi Tony,

I never heard of Baha’i until now . I had to Google it. I found it interesting that in Baha’i they teach -

"…the unity of religion, that all major religions have the same spiritual source and come from the same God;…"

How could it be from the “same source” if the religions disagree? What if one religion considers a certain behavior a sin and the other doesn’t?.. The same goes for Sacraments and so on???

The reason why there are so many different religions and so many different denominations is that they disagree, sometimes on major issues. So, where is the “unity of religion”? What if one religion believes that members of another religion should “convert or die” ?

As, you can see, I can go on and on… there are probably many beliefs found in Baha’i that as a Christian I could agree with but that’s true with other religions. It seems to me that the “unity” described in Baha’i comes down to, those who adhere to the beliefs found in Baha’i and in that sense, Baha’i isn’t any different than any other religion that disagrees with the truth found in the One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church, the only true religion. Right?

I look forward to your response.

Thank you.

Jimmy … Thanks for your post!

You ask about how we believe that all religions have the same spiritual source and come from the same God? when there are differences in religions and so on…

Over time we believe there is one religion of God only it has appeared at various times and in various cultures, languages and contexts… When you look back over all these appearances today you may well be aware of their differences and that’s I think a normal reaction… If you study them deeply however I believe some similarities will appear…

Some years ago I was involved in an inter-faith community in my town and as we met we became more familiar with each other and realized there were indeed similarities that were not apparent initially… So the Parsee and the Hindu and the Catholic and the Jews began to recognize some spiritual values shared by them.

We also believe that while the spiritual truths are basically one the laws and ordinances of religion will change from age to age to address some of the issues facing humanity depending.

 

[Jimmy_B]

Jimmy … Thanks for your post!

You ask about how we believe that all religions have the same spiritual source and come from the same God? when there are differences in religions and so on…

Over time we believe there is one religion of God only it has appeared at various times and in various cultures, languages and contexts… When you look back over all these appearances today you may well be aware of their differences and that’s I think a normal reaction… If you study them deeply however I believe some similarities will appear…

Some years ago I was involved in an inter-faith community in my town and as we met we became more familiar with each other and realized there were indeed similarities that were not apparent initially… So the Parsee and the Hindu and the Catholic and the Jews began to recognize some spiritual values shared by them.

We also believe that while the spiritual truths are basically one the laws and ordinances of religion will change from age to age to address some of the issues facing humanity depending.

arthra,
Thank you for your response and I too believe that we have more in common with many religions then we do differences. However, I did provide a few examples, in my last post where religion went wrong, went really wrong and all those people believed with all of their heart that they were in the “true” religion. The events in Kenya this week is another example where even a “few disagreements on faith” can result in horrific events. I pray for unity, unfortunately in the real world, with free-will, some things are not that simple.
Your thoughts?

 

[tonyfish58]

Hi Tony,

I never heard of Baha’i until now . I had to Google it. I found it interesting that in Baha’i they teach -

"…the unity of religion, that all major religions have the same spiritual source and come from the same God;…"

How could it be from the “same source” if the religions disagree? What if one religion considers a certain behavior a sin and the other doesn’t?.. The same goes for Sacraments and so on???

The reason why there are so many different religions and so many different denominations is that they disagree, sometimes on major issues. So, where is the “unity of religion”? What if one religion believes that members of another religion should “convert or die” ?

As, you can see, I can go on and on… there are probably many beliefs found in Baha’i that as a Christian I could agree with but that’s true with other religions. It seems to me that the “unity” described in Baha’i comes down to, those who adhere to the beliefs found in Baha’i and in that sense, Baha’i isn’t any different than any other religion that disagrees with the truth found in the One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church, the only true religion. Right?

I look forward to your response.

Thank you.

Jimmy B - Thank you for the thoughtful question.

I see Arthra has given a answer, but I will expand from my understanding of the Baha’i Writings.

The first thing would be a question, does one beleive there is only One God?

If this is firm in ones belief, then we have to look at religion in this light. If we look at it knowing that One God is the source of all true religion, then we can look at it a different way. If we approach it with the thought that we have an exclusive right to a single belief, then we will never find the connection.

The first place to look is at the Prophet themselves, How did they live, did they practice what they preached etc? You have to judge them by their own standards when doing this and not by the standards current in their day.

We can then look at the Influence they had on people around them, did they call into being a new race of men founded on the virtues of God?

Then we have their writings, is the Revealed Word applicable to the day it was revealed, does it give answers that mankind needs?

Then we can consider what differs and why. We are told that God does not change His Covenant with us that He will always guide us with a Prophet and that the fundamentals like all the virtues will not change. Things that do change are the laws applicable to the age, these are things like Prayer, Fasting, marriage etc. This is known as Progressive Revelation. This writing is a good example

The morals of humanity must undergo change. New remedies and solutions for human problems must be adopted. Human intellects themselves must change and be subject to the universal reformation. Just as the thoughts and hypotheses of past ages are fruitless today, likewise dogmas and codes of human invention are obsolete and barren of product in religion. Nay, it is true that they are the cause of enmity and conducive to strife in the world of humanity; war and bloodshed proceed from them, and the oneness of mankind finds no recognition in their observance. Therefore, it is our duty in this radiant century to investigate the essentials of divine religion, seek the realities underlying the oneness of the world of humanity and discover the source of fellowship and agreement which will unite mankind in the heavenly bond of love. This unity is the radiance of eternity, the divine spirituality, the effulgence of God and the bounty of the Kingdom. We must investigate the divine source of these heavenly bestowals and adhere unto them steadfastly. For if we remain fettered and restricted by human inventions and dogmas, day by day the world of mankind will be degraded, day by day warfare and strife will increase and satanic forces converge toward the destruction of the human race.

(Abdu’l-Baha, The Promulgation of Universal Peace, p. 144)

So mostly the differences we have to day are from Man Made Doctrines based on this or that scripture. The Older the religion the more Human influence has altered the original intent of the Writing. The interesting thing is, if a former religion picks up a Scripture revealed after it, then a lot of the complexities are addressed and further answers are given on the older Scriptures. An example of this is in the mid 650’s the Koran explains how the Christians were going down the wrong path by elevating Christ to the Station of God (that of course is another subject).

All this can be overcome without the least compromise with the love one has for a Prophet. I would also venture to say it can increase ones love for all the Prophets of God. Where once we had an Exclusive Love, it can be an all Inclusive Love

Regards Tony

 

[tonyfish58]

what do the bahai believe was lacking in the teachnigs of Jesus Christ?

what did Jesus not reveal about the nature of mankind and the divine that was subsequently revealed by mohammed and later added to by bab and after bab by bahaullah?

i would like details in the answer. be specific. what did Jesus leave unanswered that required further revelation or another manifestation?

Eddie I see no one has given you a reply to these questions. I will attempt an answer

You asked “What do the Baha’is believe was lacking in the teachings of Jesus Christ”?

My thoughts - I think the basic answer would be “Not a thing”! But the basic answer would not suffice. It is not that Christs message was lacking it was mankind’s ability to accept that message and fulfill it to its potential that was/is lacking, thus Christ says “I have much more to say to you, more than you can now bear”. John 16:12 NIV

You asked “What did Jesus not reveal about the nature of mankind and the divine that was subsequently revealed by Muhammad and later added to by Bab and after Bab by Baha’ullah”?

My reply would again be that it was our lack of understanding that needs a subsequent Revelation to guide us further along the path of understanding, we need to be reminded. Muhammad reminded us of the true station of Christ, the Bab and Baha’ullah have done likewise and given us the Keys required to open the understanding of all scripture to mankind, who as promised are becoming of age.

You asked us to be specific?

Baha’u’llah has reminded us of God

To every discerning and illumined heart it is evident that God, the unknowable Essence, the divine Being, is immensely exalted beyond every human attribute, such as corporeal existence, ascent and descent, egress and regress. Far be it from His glory that human tongue should adequately recount His praise, or that human heart comprehend His fathomless mystery. He is and hath ever been veiled in the ancient eternity of His Essence, and will remain in His Reality everlastingly hidden from the sight of men. “No vision taketh in Him, but He taketh in all vision; He is the Subtile, the All-Perceiving.” No tie of direct intercourse can possibly bind Him to His creatures. He standeth exalted beyond and above all separation and union, all proximity and remoteness. No sign can indicate His presence or His absence; inasmuch as by a word of His command all that are in heaven and on earth have come to exist, and by His wish, which is the Primal Will itself, all have stepped out of utter nothingness into the realm of being, the world of the visible.

He then tells us there can be no understanding between the Creator and the created

Gracious God! How could there be conceived any existing relationship or possible connection between His Word and they that are created of it? The verse: “God would have you beware of Himself” unmistakably beareth witness to the reality of Our argument, and the words: “God was alone; there was none else besides Him” are a sure testimony of its truth. All the Prophets of God and their chosen Ones, all the divines, the sages, and the wise of every generation, unanimously recognize their inability to attain unto the comprehension of that Quintessence of all truth, and confess their incapacity to grasp Him, Who is the inmost Reality of all things.

He then tells us who and what a Prophet like Christ is

The door of the knowledge of the Ancient of Days being thus closed in the face of all beings, the Source of infinite grace, according to His saying: “His grace hath transcended all things; My grace hath encompassed them all” hath caused those luminous Gems of Holiness to appear out of the realm of the spirit, in the noble form of the human temple, and be made manifest unto all men, that they may impart unto the world the mysteries of the unchangeable Being, and tell of the subtleties of His imperishable Essence. These sanctified Mirrors, these Day-springs of ancient glory are one and all the Exponents on earth of Him Who is the central Orb of the universe, its Essence and ultimate Purpose. From Him proceed their knowledge and power; from Him is derived their sovereignty. The beauty of their countenance is but a reflection of His image, and their revelation a sign of His deathless glory. They are the Treasuries of divine knowledge, and the Repositories of celestial wisdom. Through them is transmitted a grace that is infinite, and by them is revealed the light that can never fade. Even as He hath said: “There is no distinction whatsoever between Thee and them; except that they are Thy servants, and are created of Thee.” This is the significance of the tradition: “I am He, Himself, and He is I, myself.” (* My note - Or as Christ said the I and the Father are One - John 10:30) - Link to book - reference.bahai.org/en/t/b/KI/ki-4.html

Regards Tony

 

[Sen_McGlinn]

That is an accusation without basis. How do you know that Shoghi Effendi was unaware of Catholic doctrine?

Shoghi Effendi began his education with Les Frères des écoles chrétiennes in Haifa, and then went to a French Catholic boarding high school in Beirut, so he knew both French and Catholicism well, before he became acquainted with English and Protestantism. He could hardly have mixed up the virgin birth of Jesus and the immaculate conception of Mary.

His brother Ruhi, who was his secretary for a while, may have had the same knowledge. But other secretaries might know little of Catholicism, especially in the case of some English (UK) believers who stayed with Shoghi Effendi for shorter periods and served as his English (language) correspondence secretaries.

The secretary may have been simply ignorant of Catholicism, or the communication of Shoghi Effendi’s intent might have been complicated by the fact that Mary and Jesus, and Muhammad, Fatimah and the 12 Imams, are “immaculate souls” in Shiah and Bahai discourse. This is often translated as “infallible” (in the sense of not doing wrong).

 

[arthra]

arthra,
Thank you for your response and I too believe that we have more in common with many religions then we do differences. However, I did provide a few examples, in my last post where religion went wrong, went really wrong and all those people believed with all of their heart that they were in the “true” religion. The events in Kenya this week is another example where even a “few disagreements on faith” can result in horrific events. I pray for unity, unfortunately in the real world, with free-will, some things are not that simple.
Your thoughts?

There have been “religions gone wrong” and there are examples of course that you provided … The test I suppose is for us to investigate and weigh carefully and not simply adopt what we believe based on imitation or because someone in authority has dictated:

It is evident that no vital results are now forthcoming from the customs, institutions and standpoints of the past. In view of this, shall blind imitations of ancestral forms and theological interpretations continue to guide and control the religious life and spiritual development of humanity today? Shall man gifted with the power of reason unthinkingly follow and adhere to dogma, creeds and hereditary beliefs which will not bear the analysis of reason in this century of effulgent reality?

~ Abdu’l-Baha

 

[PRmerger]

The test I suppose is for us to** investigate and weigh carefully** and not simply adopt what we believe based on imitation or because someone in authority has dictated:

Investigate and weigh carefully against what? What is the canon you use to measure whether truth is being proclaimed or not?

 

[PRmerger]

Merger:

It means for us that Mary was pure and innocent of any sin when Jesus was conceived… without a natural father in a miraculous way.

It does not that we Baha’is view normal conjugal relations as “dirty” in any way…

How’s that?

I understand that the Bahais don’t view normal conjugal relations as dirty.

I am simply pointing out the cognitive dissonance between the above profession, and the words of one of your holy leaders.

There is a cognitive dissonance there.

He has said that Jesus was conceived “immaculately” and contrasts it with those who were “conceived naturally” (i.e. through sex): “We believe that Christ only was conceived immaculately. His brothers and sisters would have been born in the natural way and conceived naturally.”

So there’s an internal inconsistency between what you have professed, and what is proclaimed by your holy leader.

 

[eddie_too]

i may have missed it, but i asked the bahai to please explain to me what was missing from Jesus’ teachings that mankind needs to know about the nature of mankind, the Godhead and salvation, or, for that matter anything else that it is essential for mankind to know?

what did Jesus not reveal that human beings need to know?

are there any bahai out there who will answer that question or point me to the #'d entry that already has answered that question.

if there is more than one bit of information missing from Jesus’ teachings maybe the bahai responder might number them?

if Jesus gave mankind the fullness of truth, then nothing more is needed.

if Jesus did not give mankind the fullness of truth, it should be easy to identify what Jesus missed that made His teachings lack the fullness of truth.

 

[Servant19]

i may have missed it, but i asked the bahai to please explain to me what was missing from Jesus’ teachings that mankind needs to know about the nature of mankind, the Godhead and salvation, or, for that matter anything else that it is essential for mankind to know?

what did Jesus not reveal that human beings need to know?

are there any bahai out there who will answer that question or point me to the #'d entry that already has answered that question.

if there is more than one bit of information missing from Jesus’ teachings maybe the bahai responder might number them?

if Jesus gave mankind the fullness of truth, then nothing more is needed.

if Jesus did not give mankind the fullness of truth, it should be easy to identify what Jesus missed that made His teachings lack the fullness of truth.

Hi Eddie,

I feel Tony answered your question from his viewpoint just a few posts above yours.

From my humble understanding, I genuinely believe that what Jesus Himself taught us is no different to what Baha’u’llah teaches. The application of those universal truths changes slightly simply because mankind has evolved both materially and spiritually.

Material evolution is obvious and can be seen all around us.
I wonder if we can explore spiritual evolution a little more maybe in this thread?

The reality is that over time, human elements and applications creep in and to be truly honest, I personally do not believe that what Jesus actually truly taught is being given a correct chance to seat itself in the hearts and minds of all mankind.

As has already been mentioned in the thread a while ago, the Kingdom of God on earth was not established during Jesus’ ministry nor during His Dispensation. The world would definitely be a much better place had the entirety of its population truly recognized His teachings, and the likelihood of that is fading dramatically with the increases in atheism etc.

I would suggest that what Baha’u’llah has brought is a renewal and a revitalization of Jesus’ spirit and core teachings and has provided a universally acceptable means by which those core teachings can be practiced by the majority, if not the entirety of the earths population. How will it do this? Through structured and institutionally driven education and empowerment programs. And these institutions are not human institutions, they have been given the explicit promise of being guided by the Holy Spirit.

For me that is the difference.

Finally we can see a collaborative approach towards spiritual health where the frailties of individuals are supported and overcome through the empowering influences of institutions that cannot falter, without patronization nor paternalism.

Just some thoughts to consider…

 

[eddie_too]

the kingdom of God as taught by Jesus has been present on earth since Jesus birth. it is still present on earth to this vry minute. it resides in the hearts of those who believe in Him and acknowledge theire sins to Him and accordingly seek His forgiveness.

i see your comment that the bahaullah brought an emphasis that will stir men to live according to Jesus’ teachings and to consequently make this temporary life better by organizing good works to ignore the fact that there are nearly two billion christians, many of whom work every day to alleviate the pain and suffering of their fellow men. if more people joined them in the Church Jesus started, the RCC, the efforts of Jesus’ followers would accordingly become even more present.

i understand that you fail to see how insulting it is to a RC for the bahai to claim that bahaullah was needed to renew the Holy Spirit given us by Jesus and given a home in this life in His holy RCC because Jesus just could not do it right. that RCs might find this particularly insulting in light of the truth that there are literally hundreds of millions of RCs striving diligently every day of their lives to make the kingdom of God present to unbelievers through charity, sacrifice and suffering is also probably incomprehensible to you, although you cannot say you are ignorant of this truth.

then weighing the combined efforts of over 1.1 billion catholics, not to mention all of the other christian sects and the orthodox church, and comparing them to the efforts of perhaps three or four million bahai as though the efforts of the bahia justify supporting the belief that Jesus’ efforts were not sufficient, how can you not see the ludicrousness of the bahai claim that Jesus needed bahaullah to make His efforts truly fruitful?

 

[SteveVH]

the kingdom of God as taught by Jesus has been present on earth since Jesus birth. it is still present on earth to this vry minute. it resides in the hearts of those who believe in Him and acknowledge theire sins to Him and accordingly seek His forgiveness.

i see your comment that the bahaullah brought an emphasis that will stir men to live according to Jesus’ teachings and to consequently make this temporary life better by organizing good works to ignore the fact that there are nearly two billion christians, many of whom work every day to alleviate the pain and suffering of their fellow men. if more people joined them in the Church Jesus started, the RCC, the efforts of Jesus’ followers would accordingly become even more present.

i understand that you fail to see how insulting it is to a RC for the bahai to claim that bahaullah was needed to renew the Holy Spirit given us by Jesus and given a home in this life in His holy RCC because Jesus just could not do it right. that RCs might find this particularly insulting in light of the truth that there are literally hundreds of millions of RCs striving diligently every day of their lives to make the kingdom of God present to unbelievers through charity, sacrifice and suffering is also probably incomprehensible to you, although you cannot say you are ignorant of this truth.

then weighing the combined efforts of over 1.1 billion catholics, not to mention all of the other christian sects and the orthodox church, and comparing them to the efforts of perhaps three or four million bahai as though the efforts of the bahia justify supporting the belief that Jesus’ efforts were not sufficient, how can you not see the ludicrousness of the bahai claim that Jesus needed bahaullah to make His efforts truly fruitful?

Exactly. The notion that mankind needs to be reminded of what Jesus said by continuing “manifestations”, somehow, belies the fact that we have been reminded and continue to be reminded every day of our lives through the Catholic Church.

"…you never cease to gather a people to yourself, so that, from the rising of the sun to its setting, a pure sacrifice may be offered to your name…”