Reload this Page BAHA'I thread IV - feel free to ask of Baha'i any questions

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SteveVH said:
But the point is that Shoghi Effendi didn’t have a clue as to the meaning of the word as used by the Church, therefore any comment he has concerning it is, objectively, meaningless.
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That is an accusation without basis. How do you know that Shoghi Effendi was unaware of Catholic doctrine?
 
Jcc1960 said:
You state that “marital relations” are not sinful, and Baha’s agree completely with that. You question why we would have the idea that Jesus conception needed to be “immaculate” or without sin, if that were the case. But as I stated the issue was conception out of wedlock, not conception through “marital relations” so your point is invalid.
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I have already addressed this.

Mary and Joseph, at the time of her conception of Jesus in her womb, were bethrothed. That is, they were married. “Bethrothal” in ancient Israel was a ratification of a marriage.
 
Jcc1960 said:
That is an accusation without basis. How do you know that Shoghi Effendi was unaware of Catholic doctrine?
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Well, we take him at his word. He used it incorrectly.

If he was aware of the correct meaning of the Immaculate Conception, yet used it intentionally in an incorrect way, that would suggest he was devious.

I think the Catholics here would rather err on the charitable side and assume that he was not being devious but rather was ignorant of Catholic teaching.
 
PRmerger said:
I have already addressed this.

Mary and Joseph, at the time of her conception of Jesus in her womb, were bethrothed. That is, they were married. “Bethrothal” in ancient Israel was a ratification of a marriage.
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You apparently are correct that Mary and Joseph were considered effectively married, except that they were not living together and did not have relations, because according to Matthew, he considered divorcing her. But, the issue remains that if Joseph were not the father, He was not conceived through “marital relations”. Mary was accused of adultery and that accusation followed both her and Jesus their whole lives, and afterwards. Do you agree with that statement?

Now as to my point about why Mary’s conception needed to be miraculously immaculate if there were no sin involved? You didn’t answer that.
 
PRmerger said:
Well, we take him at his word. He used it incorrectly.

If he was aware of the correct meaning of the Immaculate Conception, yet used it intentionally in an incorrect way, that would suggest he was devious.

I think the Catholics here would rather err on the charitable side and assume that he was not being devious but rather was ignorant of Catholic teaching.
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On this point you should consider that not everyone is a Catholic.

Above, you properly capitalize “Immaculate Conception.” The quote written on behalf of Shoghi Effendi (not by him) does not capitalize immaculate. Therefore the term was not being used in the sense used by Catholics. It is not being devious or ignorant, it is making use of a term in a different way than Catholics would, that is all.
 
Jcc1960 said:
You apparently are correct
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that Mary and Joseph were considered effectively married, except that they were not living together and did not have relations, because according to Matthew, he considered divorcing her. But, the issue remains that if Joseph were not the father, He was not conceived through “marital relations”.
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Who would have known that Mary and Joseph hadn’t had relations? :confused:
Mary was accused of adultery and that accusation followed both her and Jesus their whole lives, and afterwards. Do you agree with that statement?
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I have never heard that Mary was accused of adultery.

Do you have any sources for that?
Now as to my point about why Mary’s conception needed to be miraculously immaculate if there were no sin involved? You didn’t answer that.
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Again, it speaks to the fact that you view the conjugal act as a defilement, if you think that Mary’s conception of Jesus has to be described as “immaculate”.

That is not the Catholic perspective.
 
Jcc1960 said:
On this point you should consider that not everyone is a Catholic.

Above, you properly capitalize “Immaculate Conception.” The quote written on behalf of Shoghi Effendi (not by him) does not capitalize immaculate. Therefore the term was not being used in the sense used by Catholics. It is not being devious or ignorant, it is making use of a term in a different way than Catholics would, that is all.
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Again, what it says is that it views the normal way of conceiving as dirty.

Is this what your holy prophets believe about marital relations?
 
PRmerger said:
https://imgur.com/jFi4HM3

Again, it speaks to the fact that you view the conjugal act as a defilement, if you think that Mary’s conception of Jesus has to be described as “immaculate”.

That is not the Catholic perspective.
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No it does not speak to that, exactly the opposite. I am saying that Mary was conceived through normal marital relations like everyone else and therefore there was NO NEED for Mary to have been conceived through miraculous Immaculate Conception. Why was that necessary if conception is not sinful?
 
PRmerger said:
Again, what it says is that it views the normal way of conceiving as dirty.

Is this what your holy prophets believe about marital relations?
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Hardly.

"And when He desired to manifest grace and beneficence to men, and to set the world in order, He revealed observances and created laws; among them He established the law of marriage, made it as a fortress for well-being and salvation, and enjoined it upon us in that which was sent down out of the heaven of sanctity in His Most Holy Book. He saith, great is His glory: “Marry, O people, that from you may appear he who will remember Me amongst My servants; this is one of My commandments unto you; obey it as an assistance to yourselves.”

– Baha’u’llah
 
Jcc1960 said:
No it does not speak to that, exactly the opposite. I am saying that Mary was conceived through normal marital relations like everyone else and therefore there was NO NEED for Mary to have been conceived through miraculous Immaculate Conception. Why was that necessary if conception is not sinful?
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Again, I already answered this.

Actually,** you** already answered this.
Jcc1960 said:
Or, maybe you are saying that it could have happened physically, but it would not have been appropriate for that to have occurred?
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PRmerger said:
Again, what it says is that it views the normal way of conceiving as dirty.

Is this what your holy prophets believe about marital relations?
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Nick44 said:
Hardly.
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Then why did one of your people post this:
arthra said:
I was a little unsure Jcc that we Baha’is teach “Mary and Joseph had children together afterwards” but did find a reference:
  1. Christ’s Brothers and Sisters Born Natural Way
“We believe that **Christ only was conceived immaculately. **His brothers and sisters would have been born in the natural way and conceived naturally.”

(From a letter written on behalf of the Guardian to Dr. Shook November 19, 1945: Bahá’í News, No. 210, p. 3, August 1948)
Code: 
(Compilations, Lights of Guidance, p. 489)
But I don’t know that it suggests “Mary and Joseph had children together afterwards…”

There were traditions that Joseph may have had children from a prior marriage or that there were cousins involved.

For Baha’is it’s not an issue so much… as in the Qur’an Jesus birth was miraculous.
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It does make it appear as if the Bahai holy people believe that there is an immaculate way to conceive children (that is, without sex) and then a dirty way (that is, through sex).
:eek:
 
PRmerger said:
Then why did one of your people post this:

It does make it appear as if the Bahai holy people believe that there is an immaculate way to conceive children (that is, without sex) and then a dirty way (that is, through sex).
:eek:
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That God decided Jesus be conceived through the spirit and not intercourse is accepted by Baha’is but that does not imply that marital sex is ‘dirty’. Any sex outside of marriage is not allowed Baha’is but marriage and having children (as the quote I provided showed) is highly encouraged.
 
I don’t how but someone here seemed to suggest that Baha’is have a view of conjugal relations as “dirty”…

Nothing could be farther from the truth…in case there’s any doubt:

*Bahá’í marriage is the commitment of the two parties one to the other, and their mutual attachment of mind and heart. Each must, however, exercise the utmost care to become thoroughly acquainted with the character of the other, that the binding covenant between them may be a tie that will endure forever. Their purpose must be this: to become loving companions and comrades and at one and eternity …

The true marriage of Bahá’ís is this, united both physically and spiritually, that they may ever improve the spiritual life of each other, and may enjoy everlasting unity throughout all the worlds of God. This is Bahá’í marriage.
*
(“Selections from the Writings of 'Abdu’l-Bahá”, sec. 86, p. 11)
Code: 
(Compilations, The Compilation of Compilations vol II, p. 441)
🙂
 
PRmerger said:
Again, I already answered this.

Actually,** you** already answered this.
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What is it that makes it inappropriate for Mary to have been conceived through marital relations without a miracle making that conception “Immaculate”?

I stated the belief that it would be inappropriate for Mary to have had other children in order to question that belief. Mainly the idea that if Jesus is both fully human and fully divine, why should His human characteristic be set apart in that way? It seems to deny precisely what Jesus came to affirm, at least in part, that is that all of humanity is saved through Him, including the least and the greatest among us.

This is the message of Baha’u’llah as well.
 
Nick44 said:
That God decided Jesus be conceived through the spirit and not intercourse is accepted by Baha’is but that does not imply that marital sex is ‘dirty’. Any sex outside of marriage is not allowed Baha’is but marriage and having children (as the quote I provided showed) is highly encouraged.
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Then why did one of your holy people say that Jesus was conceived “immaculately”, that is, without sex?

That means that the sexual union is NOT immaculate, in your holy leaders’ estimations, right?
 
arthra said:
I don’t how but someone here seemed to suggest that Baha’is have a view of conjugal relations as “dirty”…
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Because one of your holy people said that Jesus was the only person conceived immaculately, and that the rest of humanity was conceived the normal way.

That means the normal way is NOT immaculate.

Or dirty.

That is, according to your holy leaders’ proclamation.
 
Jcc1960 said:
What is it that makes it inappropriate for Mary to have been conceived through marital relations without a miracle making that conception “Immaculate”?
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http://gifsforum.com/images/gif/facepalm/grand/disappointed_gif_44556.gif

Mary was conceived through marital relations, Jcc.

Are you really here saying that you still don’t know what the teaching of the Immaculate Conception is, after all of this discussion?

Sen McGlinn, where are you? Can you please offer an example of a Bahai who actually can articulate what the IC is???
 
Merger:

It means for us that Mary was pure and innocent of any sin when Jesus was conceived… without a natural father in a miraculous way.

It does not that we Baha’is view normal conjugal relations as “dirty” in any way…

How’s that?

🙂
 
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