Reload this Page BAHA'I thread IV - feel free to ask of Baha'i any questions

[Servant19]

No, his body was not broken. Thats the point of the quran, that the shameful death by crucifixion has not been suffered by Jesus, he was saved by Allah. His body was replaced. But this is a universal islamic belief. Have the muslims since their most early commentators got it wrong?

No, its not denying that there was a shameful death of crucifixion, nor is it denying that Jesus was physically suffering.

His Spirit was already in Allah’s hands.

If Muslim commentators are denying these things, then yes they have got it wrong…

Does the Quran deny the shameful death and suffering of Islams martyrs? No it does not.
It also places the security and eternal salvation of these lives in Allah’s hands…

 

[PRmerger]

No, its not denying that there was a shameful death of crucifixion, nor is it denying that Jesus was physically suffering.

His Spirit was already in Allah’s hands.

If Muslim commentators are denying these things, then yes they have got it wrong…

Check out these (over a million) sites that state that, yes, Muslims do not believe the Christ was crucified.

google.com/#q=do+muslims+believe+jesus+died

 

[Servant19]

Check out these (over a million) sites that state that, yes, Muslims do not believe the Christ was crucified.

google.com/#q=do+muslims+believe+jesus+died

To put it bluntly PR , they are all interpreting the Quran incorrectly. Look at how beautiful and godly and unifying the website that translates it the correct way is in comparison to the websites you provided.

Which one reflects the attributes of God?

 

[PRmerger]

To put it bluntly PR , they are all interpreting the Quran incorrectly.

That, frankly, is the most absurd thing that’s been posited on this thread.

I don’t think it’s smart for me to take the Bahais interpretation of what the Koran says over the million other sites that proclaim that Christ did not die via crucifixion according to Islam.

 

[Servant19]

That, frankly, is the most absurd thing that’s been posited on this thread.

I don’t think it’s smart for me to take the Bahais interpretation of what the Koran says over the million other sites that proclaim that Christ did not die via crucifixion according to Islam.

My friend, Islam is RIFE with millions who have misinterpreted.

Any fair minded person can see that, including true Muslims like the ones who wrote the website that was linked.

I can honestly say that any Islamic scholar will testify to the fact that the historical Jesus was physically crucified. Go to any university and ask one of them.

In fact Sen will probably shed more light on it since he is a scholar of Islam I believe

 

[PRmerger]

I can honestly say that any Islamic scholar will testify to the fact that the historical Jesus was physically crucified. Go to any university and ask one of them.

Any Islam scholar, eh?

Please provide your sources here, if that is your claim.

 

[Nick44]

Nick, with all due respect, there are 257 pages here. Why don’t you just quote me those parts that are pertinent to our discussion. I have neither the time nor the desire to scour this book to find the portion that applies here. That would be your job since you are the one trying to make a point.

Steve, many have given the Baha’i understanding of those Quranic verses…I don’t know where else to take it.

I enclosed the ‘book’ because it is the premier theological work of Baha’u’llah, so it is germane to any understanding of the Faith.

 

[SteveVH]

Steven:

It may not make “sense” to you…but consider this… It is part of the idiom of the Qur’an that martyrs are not dead as well… Let’s compare Surih 2:154 with Surih 4:157…

This is a complete curve ball and I’m not swinging. This has nothing to do with whether or not Jesus was physically crucified. The Quran plainly states that it was not Jesus who was crucified and you claim Muhammad as a “Manifestation of God”. Either the Quran is wrong or the Bible and Christian Tradition are wrong. What is certain is that both cannot be right. Why won’t you deal with this head on?

 

[eddie_too]

i think it would be quite entertaining to observe or read an exchange between a bahai and a mormon on the interpretation of the RCC’s Sacred Scriptures.

and both claiming that their prophet was sent to mankind by God.

and both claiming that everyone else has it wrong.

maybe we could throw in the followers of mr. de Jesus and have a real free for all.

the main thing my reading tells me is that neither joseph smith nor bahaullah had any real knowledge of christian teachings.

it is also safe to conclude that both smith and bahaullah were desperate to convince people that they were really from God.

it is quite audacious if not arrogant to take another religion’s sacred writings and tell the people who wrote them that they do not know what they wrote.

 

[SteveVH]

Steve, many have given the Baha’i understanding of those Quranic verses…I don’t know where else to take it.

I enclosed the ‘book’ because it is the premier theological work of Baha’u’llah, so it is germane to any understanding of the Faith.

This is like you asking me a specific question about the Catholic faith and me telling you to read the Catechism. Its okay if you don’t have an answer, Nick.

The next logical step is to sit back and analyze what we have before us. Without running to this quote or that quote in search of an answer, I would simply ask you to use your rational mind.

Christ’s passion, death and Resurrection are the foundation of Christianity. If he was not crucified and did not suffer death; if he did not give his pure and righteous life to the Father in our place, then heaven’s doors remain closed and were are all condemned. That is how important this dogma is. By the way, I am not saying you have to believe it, I just want to make the Christian position very clear to you.

We then have the Quran which in no uncertain terms states that Christ was not crucified, but rather an imposter was crucified in his place. We have, as PR has pointed out, millions of sites which confirm that this is exactly what is meant (as if the words themselves were not clear enough).

So we have, not just a contradiction in a specific historical event, but a direct challenge to the most fundamental Christian belief. This is important stuff.

A seeker of truth, being intellectually honest and using the powers of rational thought, must now determine which of the two is speaking the truth. In this case, it really is a black and white situation. Jesus was either crucified or he was not.

The one thing we cannot rationally do is accept both accounts simultaneously. God gave you a rational mind for a reason; in fact for this very reason: that we might discern truth from error.
The rest is up to you Nick. You have to decide whether or not it is rational to follow a religion that accepts contradictory accounts as both being true and then try to explain it away by blaming the “seeming inconsistency” on the ignorance of those with which it disagrees. In the end it’s up to you to decide. Your eternal salvation depends upon it.

 

[arthra]

“We then have the Quran which in no uncertain terms states that Christ was not crucified, but rather an imposter was crucified in his place. We have, as PR has pointed out, millions of sites which confirm that this is exactly what is meant (as if the words themselves were not clear enough).”

Correction:

You have millions of sites that people believe “an imposter was crucified in His place”…

That they said (in boast), “We killed Christ Jesus the son of Mary, the Messenger of Allah”;- but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them, and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no (certain) knowledge, but only conjecture to follow, for of a surety they killed him not:-

Again check the idiom:

First Surih 2:154

And say not of those who are slain in the way of Allah: “They are dead.” Nay, they are living, though ye perceive (it) not.

 

[SteveVH]

Steven:

It may not make “sense” to you…but consider this… It is part of the idiom of the Qur’an that martyrs are not dead as well… Let’s compare Surih 2:154 with Surih 4:157…

First Surih 2:154

And say not of those who are slain in the way of Allah: “They are dead.” Nay, they are living, though ye perceive (it) not.

Now Surih 4:157

That they said (in boast), “We killed Christ Jesus the son of Mary, the Messenger of Allah”;- but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them, and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no (certain) knowledge, but only conjecture to follow, for of a surety they killed him not:-

Now the next verse:

Nay, Allah raised him up unto Himself; and Allah is Exalted in Power, Wise;-

The above is the well known translation of A.Yusuf Ali.

The view that while the physical body of Jesus was crucified on the cross but His Spirit was not crucified resolves in our view an apparent contradiction between Islam and Christianity. Allah raised Him up unto Himself…not His broken physical body but His Spirit.

Also… the view that “some imposter was crucified rather than Jesus.” is a mockery to the martyrdom of Jesus …

Yes, it is certainly a mockery.

I really don’t know any other way to put this, arthra. The Baha’i faith seems to me to be like a scientist who proffers a theory that oil and water mix. When challenged on this, he then claims that “oil” really means “food coloring” and proceeds to prove his theory. It was only an apparent contradiction, you see, we just didn’t understand that “oil” really meant “food coloring”.

 

[Nick44]

This is like you asking me a specific question about the Catholic faith and me telling you to read the Catechism. Its okay if you don’t have an answer, Nick.

The next logical step is to sit back and analyze what we have before us. Without running to this quote or that quote in search of an answer, I would simply ask you to use your rational mind.

Christ’s passion, death and Resurrection are the foundation of Christianity. If he was not crucified and did not suffer death; if he did not give his pure and righteous life to the Father in our place, then heaven’s doors remain closed and were are all condemned. That is how important this dogma is. By the way, I am not saying you have to believe it, I just want to make the Christian position very clear to you.

We then have the Quran which in no uncertain terms states that Christ was not crucified, but rather an imposter was crucified in his place. We have, as PR has pointed out, millions of sites which confirm that this is exactly what is meant (as if the words themselves were not clear enough).

So we have, not just a contradiction in a specific historical event, but a direct challenge to the most fundamental Christian belief. This is important stuff.

A seeker of truth, being intellectually honest and using the powers of rational thought, must now determine which of the two is speaking the truth. In this case, it really is a black and white situation. Jesus was either crucified or he was not.

The one thing we cannot rationally do is accept both accounts simultaneously. God gave you a rational mind for a reason; in fact for this very reason: that we might discern truth from error.
The rest is up to you Nick. You have to decide whether or not it is rational to follow a religion that accepts contradictory accounts as both being true and then try to explain it away by blaming the “seeming inconsistency” on the ignorance of those with which it disagrees. In the end it’s up to you to decide. Your eternal salvation depends upon it.

Steve, you are correct that ‘God gave us a rational mind for a reason’ and I try to use mine to the best of my ability. If I told you that my friends ex-wife ripped his heart out, you would understand what I was saying. Another could say, “Wow, she literally ripped his heart out…see, that’s exactly what it says!”

To me, many of the beliefs and doctrines that have come down through the ages are not rational when taken literally. Bodies recombining and flying out of graves, a body descending on a cloud, Muhammad riding a horse into heaven, the sky rolling-up, trumpets blowing, etc, etc.

Baha’u’llah has explained the spiritual intent hidden within seemingly absurd physical events. He explains that there are numerous meanings contained within the verses, and His explanations satisfy both my mind and heart.

Have a safe journey!

 

[Servant19]

Any Islam scholar, eh?

Please provide your sources here, if that is your claim.

I may be mistaken but I was under the impression that Jesus’ crucifixion was independently verified by several non-Christian accounts of that period?

I know for a fact that Muslim scholar, Reza Aslan has verified this fact in several scholastic papers

 

[Servant19]

This is a great question and the most important question one facing any human being during their lifetime.

i think we alluded to the answer to this question somewhat previously. i’m sorry i didn’t do a very good job of it. Perhaps a recap is in order…

A person Who is a Manifestation announces that He is. As someone mentioned before, Shakespere wrote many beautiful things, as did Bahá’u’lláh, but the former never claimed to be the Mouthpiece of God while the latter did.

The second most important source for finding the Mouthpiece of God is His Writings.

The third, His life. Was He persecuted for His Teachings? Did He continue to teach anyway? Were His followers persecuted? How did they react to these persecutions?

Did He give any predictions about future events? Did they come true or not?

The Mouthpiece of God’s Teachings are meant to be put into practice How do His followers live? What are they involved in now?

And, if enough time has passed, was a great civilization born?

Of course, while we are searching for this Anointed One, we ourselves must strive to be humble, to rid ourselves of preconcieved notions and to pray and meditate daily and to beseech our Creator for Divine Guidance in our search.

Hopefully this will help a little.

Have a beautiful evening!

This is a pretty comprehensive, yet concise summary, thank you frazelle

 

[arthra]

It’s interesting…

Here we are on a Catholic forum with Catholics arguing what the Qur’an says… Oh well…

 

[Servant19]

No, Servant. I reject “wacky fringe jobs”, and have been quite consistent in this.

You, however, are being quite inconsistent. You seem to reject the wacky claim of folks who believe that Mr. de Jesus is divine…

yet you provide as a source another wacky web site.

Please be consistent.

Do you have a reputable website that says that Jewish tradition is the Word of God?

Otherwise, I have to assume that you were mistaken in comparing Jewish tradition to Catholic Sacred Tradition.

At any rate, Jewish rabbinic tradition rejecting Christ would not be an indictment of Catholic Sacred Tradition.

To a Jew, the authority provided by semikhah is sufficient authority. Catholics may claim that they have upped the ante by saying that you are privy to the Word of God through Sacred Tradition.

My understanding of the Bahai Faith is that there is no other Word of God other than those that were uttered by the Manifestation of God, period.

But at the end of the day a Jew sees authority ONLY through semikhah, why should he accept Jesus as the Messiah? What proof do you have? Classical semikhah said no!

 

[eddie_too]

it does not surprise me that the man bahaullah thought he could reinterpret the koran.

afterall, he believed he was qualified to tell billions of christians that their sacred book did not mean what the people who wrote it thought it meant.

bahaullah was not short of audacious self-aggrandizement.

imagine the audacity or arrogance or simple mental illness, if you prefer, of a human being telling the people who wrote a book that they do not know what they meant when they wrote it.

i can already read in my mind the words of the bahai who will justify this arrogance or mental illness or whatever prompted bahaullah to proclaim to the writers of the new testament that they do not know the meaning of what they wrote by saying, “but that is exactly what Jesus did to the ancient jewish scriptures”. exclaiming this while ignoring Jesus’ own words about the jewish laws and traditions. perhaps they are not deliberately ignoring Jesus’ own words because they do not have knowledge of all that Jesus said and did.

but seriously, Jesus, Himself, said He would raise Himself from the dead. yet bahaullah proclaims that Jesus did not know what He was saying or was lying.

 

[Servant19]

Did Bahauhllah worship Christ?

No, why would Baha’u’llah worship Himself?

He revered the Divinity of Christ, just as He revered the Divinity of Himself

 

[eddie_too]

the bahai do not define the word “divine” the same as RCs.

it has an entirely separate meaning for bahai than it has for RCs.

the bahai definition of divine corresponds most closely to the RC word holy.