Reload this Page BAHA'I thread IV - feel free to ask of Baha'i any questions

[SteveVH]

Steve, you are correct that ‘God gave us a rational mind for a reason’ and I try to use mine to the best of my ability. If I told you that my friends ex-wife ripped his heart out, you would understand what I was saying. Another could say, “Wow, she literally ripped his heart out…see, that’s exactly what it says!”

They “could” say that if they were a complete idiot. But any rational person would not say that. We should really try and deal with reality here.

To me, many of the beliefs and doctrines that have come down through the ages are not rational when taken literally.

Theological writing many times contains metaphorical language in order to express a deeper, more profound meaning. It is up to the exegete to study the language, culture, time and place and various idioms and modes of expression which were present at the time it was written in order to determine what is literal from what is allegory or metaphorical. No, not everything is meant to be taken literally. But not everything is to be taken metaphorically either.

The case in point is not a theological writing. It is, rather, a historical event that either happened or didn’t happen. Jesus was either crucified, physically, or he was not. There is no metaphorical meaning to be interpreted. If we were to discuss the spiritual meaning of this historical event then differing views are certainly legitimate. But you either believe a historical even happened or you do not. Historical events are always literal.

 

[SteveVH]

It’s interesting…

Here we are on a Catholic forum with Catholics arguing what the Qur’an says… Oh well…

We are not arguing with each other. We are discussing the Baha’i faith which holds both the Quran and the Bible to be the word of God while ignoring the glaring inconsistencies and outright contradictions that arise. We are only pointing out some of those contradictions and asking for a reasonable explanation.

Why would a Baha’i be more qualified in arguing what the Quran really says than would a Catholic?

 

[Nick44]

This is like you asking me a specific question about the Catholic faith and me telling you to read the Catechism. Its okay if you don’t have an answer, Nick.

The next logical step is to sit back and analyze what we have before us. Without running to this quote or that quote in search of an answer, I would simply ask you to use your rational mind.

Christ’s passion, death and Resurrection are the foundation of Christianity. If he was not crucified and did not suffer death; if he did not give his pure and righteous life to the Father in our place, then heaven’s doors remain closed and were are all condemned. That is how important this dogma is. By the way, I am not saying you have to believe it, I just want to make the Christian position very clear to you.

We then have the Quran which in no uncertain terms states that Christ was not crucified, but rather an imposter was crucified in his place. We have, as PR has pointed out, millions of sites which confirm that this is exactly what is meant (as if the words themselves were not clear enough).

So we have, not just a contradiction in a specific historical event, but a direct challenge to the most fundamental Christian belief. This is important stuff.

A seeker of truth, being intellectually honest and using the powers of rational thought, must now determine which of the two is speaking the truth. In this case, it really is a black and white situation. Jesus was either crucified or he was not.

The one thing we cannot rationally do is accept both accounts simultaneously. God gave you a rational mind for a reason; in fact for this very reason: that we might discern truth from error.
The rest is up to you Nick. You have to decide whether or not it is rational to follow a religion that accepts contradictory accounts as both being true and then try to explain it away by blaming the “seeming inconsistency” on the ignorance of those with which it disagrees. In the end it’s up to you to decide. Your eternal salvation depends upon it.

Steve, you are correct that ‘God gave us a rational mind for a reason’ and I try to use mine to the best of my ability. If I told you that my friends ex-wife ripped his heart out, you would understand what I was saying. Another could say, “Wow, she literally ripped his heart out…see, that’s exactly what it says!”

To me, many of the beliefs and doctrines that have come down through the ages are not rational when taken literally. Bodies recombining and flying out of graves, a body descending on a cloud, Muhammad riding a horse into heaven, the sky rolling-up, trumpets blowing, etc, etc.

Baha’u’llah has explained the spiritual intent hidden within seemingly absurd physical events. He explains that there are numerous meanings contained within the verses, and His explanations satisfy both my mind and heart.

Have a safe journey!

 

[eddie_too]

how does a bahai make atonement to the Supreme Being for their sins against Him?

 

[SteveVH]

Steve, you are correct that ‘God gave us a rational mind for a reason’ and I try to use mine to the best of my ability. If I told you that my friends ex-wife ripped his heart out, you would understand what I was saying. Another could say, “Wow, she literally ripped his heart out…see, that’s exactly what it says!”

To me, many of the beliefs and doctrines that have come down through the ages are not rational when taken literally. Bodies recombining and flying out of graves, a body descending on a cloud, Muhammad riding a horse into heaven, the sky rolling-up, trumpets blowing, etc, etc.

Baha’u’llah has explained the spiritual intent hidden within seemingly absurd physical events. He explains that there are numerous meanings contained within the verses, and His explanations satisfy both my mind and heart.

Have a safe journey!

Is there a reason that you posted this again?

 

[Nick44]

They “could” say that if they were a complete idiot. But any rational person would not say that. We should really try and deal with reality here.

Theological writing many times contains metaphorical language in order to express a deeper, more profound meaning. It is up to the exegete to study the language, culture, time and place and various idioms and modes of expression which were present at the time it was written in order to determine what is literal from what is allegory or metaphorical. No, not everything is meant to be taken literally. But not everything is to be taken metaphorically either.

The case in point is not a theological writing. It is, rather, a historical event that either happened or didn’t happen. Jesus was either crucified, physically, or he was not. There is no metaphorical meaning to be interpreted. If we were to discuss the spiritual meaning of this historical event then differing views are certainly legitimate. But you either believe a historical even happened or you do not. Historical events are always literal.

Of course, my example was ‘idiotic’…it was meant to be. I realize that not all scripture is symbolic, far from it, but when a literal reading goes against rational thought and true science, then it is the spiritual meaning and intent that we should look for lest we end-up in superstition and division. Baha’u’llah has unsealed the previously sealed.

 

[SteveVH]

Of course, my example was ‘idiotic’…it was meant to be. I realize that not all scripture is symbolic, far from it, but when a literal reading goes against rational thought and true science, then it is the spiritual meaning and intent that we should look for lest we end-up in superstition and division. Baha’u’llah has unsealed the previously sealed.

Once again we are speaking of a historical event, not a vision or prophecy of some sort. When faced with a contradiction concerning a historical event, both sides cannot simultaneously be true. As I said, historical events are always literal. They either happened or they did not.

This is a completely different issue than trying to determine the spiritual reality behind the historical event.

 

[arthra]

Some of the Catholics on this thread seem convinced that the Qur’an says an imposter replaced Christ on the cross…

The problem is that the belief that there was a substitute for Jesus by many Muslims is based on an interpretation…

We then must ask… if there was a substitute …who was it? Some think it was Judas and some Simon of Cyrene…

The question is also asked where was Jesus when the substitute was being crucified?

If Jesus had a substitute then He would be “ducking out” … evading an execution meant for Him…Someone gave their life for Jesus…

The “substitute” concept doesn’t really fly very far.

Another proposal was that Jesus somehow survived the crucifixion and revived and traveled to Kashmir… to die there later at an advanced age… Some Ahmadiyyih Muslims believe this.

Why is the Baha’i view important? By stressing the issue that Jesus was physically crucified… and that His Spirit ascended reconciles Muslims and Christians …

Let’s look again at Surih 4 verse 157

Yusuf Ali
That they said (in boast), “We killed Christ Jesus the son of Mary, the Messenger of Allah”;- but they killed him not, nor crucified him, **but so it was made to appear to them, **and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no (certain) knowledge, but only conjecture to follow, for of a surety they killed him not:-

and again recall the earlier verse I cited above in surih 2:154

And say not of those who are slain in the way of Allah: “They are dead.” Nay, they are living, though ye perceive (it) not.

The verse focuses on the reality of the spirit of the martyr who was slain! The spirit is living.

The same can be said in my view to the Surih 4:157… while the corporeal body was crucified the Spirit of Jesus was not killed…but in verse 158:

Nay, Allah raised him up unto Himself; and Allah is Exalted in Power, Wise;-

There is also very lovely way this is confirmed by the Gospel of Luke…

The last words of Jesus on the cross according to the Gospel of Luke translated in the Jerusalem Bible read:

…and when Jesus had cried out in a loud voice, He said, “Father, into Your hands I commit my Spirit” with these words he breathed His last.

~ Luke 22:46

So Jesus committed His Spirit to God and the Qur’an says **Allah raised him up unto Himself.

**Surih 4:157 is also translated in a simialr way by Pickthal:

And because of their saying: We slew the Messiah, Jesus son of Mary, Allah’s messenger - they slew him not nor crucified him, but it appeared so unto them; and lo! those who disagree concerning it are in doubt thereof; they have no knowledge thereof save pursuit of a conjecture; they slew him not for certain. There are translations that mention a substitute** as in

**Ahmed Raza Khan: Mohammed Aqib Qadri:

And because they said, “We have killed the Messiah, Eisa the son of Maryam, the Messenger of Allah” they did not slay him nor did they crucify him, but a look-alike was created for them; and those who disagree concerning it are in doubt about it; they know nothing of it, except the following of assumptions; and without doubt, they did not kill him.

So to me it’s an issue of interpretation.

The Arabic word in question is “Shubbiha” and means

“it was made to appear (so)”

for more information:

http://corpus.quran.com/qurandictionary.jsp?q=$bh#(4:157:15)

 

[eddie_too]

arthra writes this, “Why is the Baha’i view important? By stressing the issue that Jesus was physically crucified… and that His Spirit ascended reconciles Muslims and Christians …”.

seriously arthra, you actually believe that the bahai reconcile muslim and christian teaching on the the crucifixion and resurrection of Jesus Christ?

to write such a sentence requires absolute ignorance of christian teachings concerning Jesus’ death and resurrection.

my suggestion is that you try and validate bahaullah without lying about christian teachings.

 

[Nick44]

Once again we are speaking of a historical event, not a vision or prophecy of some sort. When faced with a contradiction concerning a historical event, both sides cannot simultaneously be true. As I said, historical events are always literal. They either happened or they did not.

This is a completely different issue than trying to determine the spiritual reality behind the historical event.

Steve, the enclosed does a good job explaining interpretation in the Baha’i Faith.

bahai-library.com/stockman_christianity_bahai_perspective&chapter=1

 

[SteveVH]

Steve, the enclosed does a good job explaining interpretation in the Baha’i Faith.

bahai-library.com/stockman_christianity_bahai_perspective&chapter=1

I read the entire thing and have so many problems with so many things that are stated that I would not know where to begin.

But the first sentence of the article speaks volumes:

"A thorough and systematic examination of the Bahá’í approach to interpreting the Bible remains to be written…

After 150 years, the Baha’i still have no thorough and systematic examination of their own approach to interpreting the Bible. Yet they claim to have the correct interpretation.

 

[Nick44]

I read the entire thing and have so many problems with so many things that are stated that I would not know where to begin.

But the first sentence of the article speaks volumes:

"A thorough and systematic examination of the Bahá’í approach to interpreting the Bible remains to be written…

After 150 years, the Baha’i still have no thorough and systematic examination of their own approach to interpreting the Bible. Yet they claim to have the correct interpretation.

Thanks for reading it! At a minimum, and agree or disagree, you now have a better understanding of Baha’i belief than you had before. Many things do remain to be written (and translated from the original Writings as well) but we’re only 150 yrs since Baha’u’llah’s announcement…we’re moving as fast as we can.

 

[SteveVH]

Thanks for reading it! At a minimum, and agree or disagree, you now have a better understanding of Baha’i belief than you had before. Many things do remain to be written (and translated from the original Writings as well) but we’re only 150 yrs since Baha’u’llah’s announcement…we’re moving as fast as we can.

Would it not be prudent to wait until you do have a systematic approach to interpreting the Scriptures before you interpret them?

 

[IgnatianPhilo]

My friend, Islam is RIFE with millions who have misinterpreted.

Any fair minded person can see that, including true Muslims like the ones who wrote the website that was linked.

I can honestly say that any Islamic scholar will testify to the fact that the historical Jesus was physically crucified. Go to any university and ask one of them.

In fact Sen will probably shed more light on it since he is a scholar of Islam I believe

They must have misinterpreted it since the begining then aye? The earliest commentators don’t agree with bahai. This of course begs the question. Since all the muslims are wrong, why are we sure you’ve got it right?

 

[IgnatianPhilo]

I still don’t have an answer to my question.

Do bahai acknowledge as John (which you say you believe in) tells us that Jesus Christ created the world.

Don’t avoid the question, don’t just say “God created the universe and everything therein.”
Did the person known as Jesus of Nazareth, the word of God who was with God and was God create the universe and everything that began to exist? Please answer.

 

[Servant19]

I still don’t have an answer to my question.

Do bahai acknowledge as John (which you say you believe in) tells us that Jesus Christ created the world.

Don’t avoid the question, don’t just say “God created the universe and everything therein.”
Did the person known as Jesus of Nazareth, the word of God who was with God and was God create the universe and everything that began to exist? Please answer.

Did Jesus ever say He was the Creator of the universe?

 

[eddie_too]

Jesus said He would raise Himself from the dead, does that count for being Creator of the Universe?

 

[IgnatianPhilo]

Did Jesus ever say He was the Creator of the universe?

That doesn’t answer my question. Did he create the universe or not?

 

[eddie_too]

one bahai wrote a comment on here saying that the bahai religion teaches that the universe is eternal, thus uncreated.

 

[PRmerger]

I may be mistaken but I was under the impression that Jesus’ crucifixion was independently verified by several non-Christian accounts of that period?

I know for a fact that Muslim scholar, Reza Aslan has verified this fact in several scholastic papers

So if I provided even one Islamic scholar who says that Jesus never died on the Christ would that refute your claim that you made that “any Islamic scholar will testify to the fact that the historical Jesus was physically crucified”?

I can honestly say that any Islamic scholar will testify to the fact that the historical Jesus was physically crucified