Reload this Page BAHA'I thread IV - feel free to ask of Baha'i any questions

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the most important thing about bahaullah is that he taught that Jesus Christ did not have the same Divine Nature as God the Father or God the Holy Spirit.

because bahaullah denies this essential truth about reality, it is fair to question whether anything bahaullah said or wrote has any real or eternal significance for anyone.

a person who gets the most fundamental of truths wrong (for example by teaching the completely erroneous idea that Jesus was only a man like bahaullah and did not possess the same Nature as the Father) is not a good choice to go to when wondering about the nature of reality. such a man is also not a good choice to go to when seeking knowledge about almighty God.
 
Servant19 said:
Eddie, are you saying that Jesus is the Father?

Or that Jesus is God?
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Servant, may I ask you to give us a brief summary of your idea of the Christian dogma of the Trinity?

The answer to your question is very simple. Jesus is not the Father. Jesus is also not the Holy Spirit, but yes, he is God. The Father is God, the Son is God and the Holy Spirit is God. Three divine Persons in one God, distinct only in relationship with one another, but not separate in any way. The nature of the one God is a family. That is why we have a Father and a Son and a Holy Spirit. God is not like us. The eternal second Person of the Trinity became man. He was not created, but rather assumed human flesh, being born of a virgin with no human father.

You do not have to accept the dogma of the Trinity, but if you are going to discuss this subject you should at least know what it is that we really believe.
 
eddie_too said:
the most important thing about bahaullah is that he taught that Jesus Christ did not have the same Divine Nature as God the Father or God the Holy Spirit.

because bahaullah denies this essential truth about reality, it is fair to question whether anything bahaullah said or wrote has any real or eternal significance for anyone.

a person who gets the most fundamental of truths wrong (for example by teaching the completely erroneous idea that Jesus was only a man like bahaullah and did not possess the same Nature as the Father) is not a good choice to go to when wondering about the nature of reality. such a man is also not a good choice to go to when seeking knowledge about almighty God.
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Absolutely.👍
 
Steve wrote above:

*God is one. Mankind is not. *

Of course our belief is in the oneness of mankind…this is a Baha’i central teaching…Once we recognize the oneness of mankind a lot can follow…as in treating people as if you would want to be treated… abandoning prejudices and xeno phobia.

I think the internet is a place where we begin to see how alike we are and can enjoy each other more.

Oneness doesn’t mean we abandon our cultural heritage as it can enrich the whole…

Ever since the day Thou didst create me at Thy bidding, O my God, and didst arouse me through the gentle winds of Thy tender mercies, I have refused to turn to any one except Thee, and have, through the power of Thy sovereignty and Thy might, arisen to face Thine enemies, and have summoned all mankind unto the shores of the ocean of Thy oneness and the heaven of Thine all-glorious unity.

~ Baha’u’llah, Prayers and Meditations by Baha’u’llah, p. 301

Around 1913…Abdul-Baha was in London and was recorded to have said:

*The gift of God to this enlightened age is the knowledge of the oneness of mankind and of the fundamental oneness of religion. War shall cease between nations, and by the will of God the Most Great Peace shall come; the world will be seen as a new world, and all men will live as brothers.

In the days of old an instinct for warfare was developed in the struggle with wild animals; this is no longer necessary; nay, rather, co-operation and mutual understanding are seen to produce the greatest welfare of mankind. Enmity is now the result of prejudice only.*

~ Abdu’l-Baha, Abdu’l-Baha in London, p. 19
 
where do the bahai get the idea that the oneness of mankind, by which the bahai means the Creator loves all of His human creatures, is something new in the world of religion?

that is simply bizarre to pretend that the oneness of mankind as the bahai define it is something new to mankind. such pretension borders on the absurd.

serously, do the bahai not know that Jesus died for the sins of all. that Jesus, almighty God Himself, became man so that all might be saved?

such foolishness it is to adopt the christian teaching that our Creator loves all of His human creatures and then to pretend as though bahaullah saying this is something that was never heard before.

perhaps it had not been heard by the poor bahai who rejoice in it. but, this concept of the Creator loving all of His human creatures was not originated by bahaullah.
 
My question is, what convenant type, promise and sign does Baha’u’llah bring to God’s plan of salvation history ?

First the ancient covenant of God with man is that He will never let us alone without Divine Guidance:

*“Since time immemorial God has covenanted with His people that He would not leave them to themselves alone but would send them Teachers or Prophets with unerring guidance to assist and help them, to lead them to true knowledge and to show them the path of nearness to Him.

This is the Great Covenant, the Ancient Covenant of God through which God has unfailingly released His regenerating Power, which has recreated all things and which has educated man enabling him to build an everadvancing civilization. Each of His Manifestations in turn has always foretold the Prophets or Teacher to come after Him…*"

There’s much more but for now just note the promise that each of the Manifestations foretells the One Who will come after Him…

Thus Jesus said of the Spirit of Truth

John 16:13

*Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.
*
 
according to arthra’s citation, bahaullah said this, “Since time immemorial God has covenanted with His people that He would not leave them to themselves alone but would send them Teachers or Prophets with unerring guidance to assist and help them, to lead them to true knowledge and to show them the path of nearness to Him.”

would it be too much to ask of the bahai when this covenant occurred and how it was established?

are we to believe bahaullah even though there is no evidence to support such an assertion about God’s immemorial covenant?
 
eddie_too said:
according to arthra’s citation, bahaullah said this,

“Since time immemorial God has covenanted with His people that He would not leave them to themselves alone but would send them Teachers or Prophets with unerring guidance to assist and help them, to lead them to true knowledge and to show them the path of nearness to Him.”

would it be too much to ask of the bahai when this covenant occurred and how it was established?

are we to believe Bahaullah even though there is no evidence to support such an assertion about God’s immemorial covenant?
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Good question Eddie…

You’re familiar with the reaction when Jesus said “…before Abraham was born, I am.”

John 8:57-59

…57So the Jews said to Him, “You are not yet fifty years old, and have You seen Abraham?” 58Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I am.” 59Therefore they picked up stones to throw at Him, but Jesus hid Himself and went out of the temple.

…

I think it’s along the same lines…

The Divine aspect of Baha’u’llah is speaking here… Each of teh Manifestations have a human and Divine aspect or plane…

*We said that the Manifestations have three planes.

First, the physical reality, which depends upon the body;

second, the individual reality, that is to say, the rational soul;

third, the divine appearance, which is the divine perfections, the cause of the life of existence, of the education of souls, of the guidance of people, and of the enlightenment of the contingent world.
*
~ Abdu’l-Baha, Some Answered Questions, p. 153
 
arthra said:
Steve wrote above:

*God is one. Mankind is not. *

Of course our belief is in the oneness of mankind…this is a Baha’i central teaching…Once we recognize the oneness of mankind a lot can follow…as in treating people as if you would want to be treated… abandoning prejudices and xeno phobia.
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My point, Arthra, is that you confuse an ideal (the oneness of mankind) with the reality all around us. Is there unity between those who adhere to Islam and those who adhere to Christianity or Baha’i? No. Is there unity between the Muslim countries of the Middle East and Israel? No. Is there unity between the tribes in Rwanda or Darfur? No.

When you say your belief is in the oneness of mankind, what do you mean? If you are speaking of striving for oneness, great. If you hold the oneness of mankind as an ideal to be pursued, great. By observing the world around us, our rational mind informs us that this is an ideal yet to be realized. Until it is realized we are not one, and it will not be realized until we are all one with and in Christ.

As Catholics, we of course recognize that we are one in our humanness; that Christ died for all of mankind, that it is God’s desire that we become true brothers and sisters in Him. We also recognize the existence of evil and sin and the weakness of fallen man. This is exactly why we need a Savior, not to live in a world ruled by wise men under a one world government, but rather to live with God and share in his very life with our brothers and sisters in heaven.
 
eddie_too said:
where do the bahai get the idea that the oneness of mankind, by which the bahai means the Creator loves all of His human creatures, is something new in the world of religion?

that is simply bizarre to pretend that the oneness of mankind as the bahai define it is something new to mankind. such pretension borders on the absurd.

serously, do the bahai not know that Jesus died for the sins of all. that Jesus, almighty God Himself, became man so that all might be saved?

such foolishness it is to adopt the christian teaching that our Creator loves all of His human creatures and then to pretend as though Bahaullah saying this is something that was never heard before.

perhaps it had not been heard by the poor bahai who rejoice in it. but, this concept of the Creator loving all of His human creatures was not originated by Bahaullah.
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I agree… The love of mankind is in the previous dispensations.

There are four kinds of love:

There are four kinds of love. The first is the love that flows from God to man; it consists of the inexhaustible graces, the Divine effulgence and heavenly illumination. Through this love the world of being receives life. Through this love man is endowed with physical existence, until, through the breath of the Holy Spirit – this same love – he receives eternal life and becomes the image of the Living God. This love is the origin of all the love in the world of creation.

The second is the love that flows from man to God. This is faith, attraction to the Divine, enkindlement, progress, entrance into the Kingdom of God, receiving the Bounties of God, illumination with the lights of the Kingdom. This love is the origin of all philanthropy; this love causes the hearts of men to reflect the rays of the Sun of Reality.

The third is the love of God towards the Self or Identity of God. This is the transfiguration of His Beauty, the reflection of Himself in the mirror of His Creation. This is the reality of love, the Ancient Love, the Eternal Love. Through one ray of this Love all other love exists.

The fourth is the love of man for man. The love which exists between the hearts of believers is prompted by the ideal of the unity of spirits. This love is attained through the knowledge of God, so that men see the Divine Love reflected in the heart. Each sees in the other the Beauty of God reflected in the soul, and finding this point of similarity, they are attracted to one another in love. This love will make all men the 181 waves of one sea, this love will make them all the stars of one heaven and the fruits of one tree. This love will bring the realization of true accord, the foundation of real unity.

~ Abdu’l-Baha, Paris Talks, p. 179

How are the teachings of the oneness of mankind to be carried out? In an explicit way… Before they were implicit.

Baha’u’llah offered specifics of how the oneness of mankind will be realized through establishing world peace… an international court of arbitration… establishing universal education… reducing the extremes of wealth and poverty… and by working for the equality of men and women… these are just a few of the principles enunciated by Baha’u’llah.
 
Servant19 said:
No Jesus is NOT the Father.
Or is He? He did say He and the Father are One.

The question is, where does God come into this equation?
Who is God, and Who is the Father?

Baha’u’llah on more than one occasion says that He is the Father, as well as saying He is God.

For Baha’is, I really feel the relationship is a mystery, and to be honest bears little importance in comparison to the importance of DOING the Will of God.

“…whoever does the Will of God is my mother and my brother and my sister…” (Mark 3:35, Matthew 12:50)

In this regard, God/Father and His relationship with Jesus only matters on an epistemological sense.
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  1. No Christian accepts the heresy of Patripassionism.
  2. My question remains unanswered. Is Jesus God? Yes or no. Be clear about this otherwise I will only but conclude that you worship Jesus and consider him God but not God the father.
 
Nick44 said:
Yes or no? Actually, the answer is yes and no. It is an abstruse point. Here are some explanations from Baha’u’llah on the subject:

bahaullah.com/bahaullah-writings-god-part1.html
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Lets define God shall we.
  1. God is eternal, uncreated, all powerful, all knowing, beyond the material world.
  2. God is immutable, he does not change.
  3. God is the creator of all things that are created.
  4. God alone is worthy of worship, that is opposed to mere veneration or less honour than someone or something else.
Now if you want to apply those things to Jesus Christ and say, well yes and no to my original question, feel free to. I don’t know why bahai oppose the Christian trinity then.
 
tonyfish58 said:
IgnatianPhilo - Here are my answers to your questions - I have used passages that tell it straight, but require more study of other passages to give a fuller picture of what is being said.

The first question as you have mentioned is answered by the Qur’an. It is very clear on this subject. So in the mid 600’s a warning was given to man by God that they were heading in the wrong direction with a Trinity doctrine. These passages are quite confronting. Can you imagine what controversy they did bring! And of course still do!

Sura 5:72-73, 5:75 “They do blaspheme who say: “God is Christ the son of Mary.” They do blaspheme who say: God is one of three in a trinity: for there is no God except one God Allah. If they do not desist from their word of blasphemy, verily a grievous penalty will befall the blasphemers among them. Christ the son of Mary was no more than a Messenger; many were the Messengers that passed away before him.”

Sura 4:169 “Believe in God and his apostles and say not three…”

Thank you for the quotations which I have read, I may have a different understanding of a lot of those passages posted as you would expect.

As to the final question “how are you guaranteed any more protection than the fledgling church”?

The protection we are given is by abiding by the Covenant of Baha’u’llah which sets our path to take with interpretation of religious scripture. If we deviate from this covenant even to the extent of an Atom, then there is no protection.

To do this we offer quotes from the writings which are Gods Words, we are able to offer our own understanding which has no authority. Thus by offering quotes about these controversial subjects, I feel is the best way.

Baha’u’llah has also written re how the Muslims had also put a lot into interpretation and had also headed down the wrong path of understanding. The best study on this subject is the Katabi’i’quan - Link - reference.bahai.org/en/t/b/KI/

“Behold their folly: they utter the self-same words, uttered by the Jews of old, and know it not”!

“As the commentators of the Qur’án and they that follow the letter thereof misapprehended the inner meaning of the words of God and failed to grasp their essential purpose”…

“How vain their sophistry! How grievous their blindness”!

What must we do with these warnings? IMHO - Learn from them!

Regards Tony
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The thing is I don’t trust the quran, the quran doesn’t actually give the definition of what it is trying to refute. Say not three? What does that mean exactly? Say not three what? By time of muhammad our language had developed and Allah should have been able to inform muhammad what we believed and have him understand. We were not heading in the wrong direction by the time of Muhammad, we had advanced way beyond the point of heading down the path and had arrived at the castle of Nicea, constantinople, Augustine, John of Damascus and Gregory of Nazianzus.

My central question remains unanswered, when did we begin to go astray? For the life of me I must conclude it was with the apostles themselves for the things they taught no bahai can believe in now, that Jesus was the creator, that Jesus is our eternal high priest who alone has atoned for our sin, that he is the hope of the world, that he was God. Though I respect you more for trying to answer teh question than the rest of your fellow bahai.

But I will say one thing, a comment on your supposed covenant. You believe you are still part of this covenant, sort of like the jews who went astray. You believe if you go beyond its bounds God gives you no protection, yet you cannot say you are not already beyond its bounds. There is no garuntee if you admit the possiblity of falling away.

Its a regression back into law in my opinion. Whereas Christ came to set us free from the law, give us grace and in that grace fulfill the law better than we ever could while under it, you bahai have placed yourselves in the same position as the jews. you are very fond of using analogies, accept that you are like the jews, under a law that gives you no security but instead condemns you.
 
tonyfish58 said:
Could not these Bible Passage also tell of the progress of Religion and answer the question asked?

Matthew 13:13 Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand. King James Bible

Matthew 21:33 Hear another parable: There was a certain householder, which planted a vineyard, and hedged it round about, and digged a winepress in it, and built a tower, and let it out to husbandmen, and went into a far country:
21:34 And when the time of the fruit drew near, he sent his servants to the husbandmen, that they might receive the fruits of it.
21:35 And the husbandmen took his servants, and beat one, and killed another, and stoned another.
21:36 Again, he sent other servants more than the first: and they did unto them likewise.
21:37 But last of all he sent unto them his son, saying, They will reverence my son.
21:38 But when the husbandmen saw the son, they said among themselves, This is the heir; come, let us kill him, and let us seize on his inheritance.
21:39 And they caught him, and cast him out of the vineyard, and slew him.
21:40 When the lord therefore of the vineyard cometh, what will he do unto those husbandmen?
21:41 They say unto him, He will miserably destroy those wicked men, and will let out his vineyard unto other husbandmen, which shall render him the fruits in their seasons.
21:42 Jesus saith unto them, Did ye never read in the scriptures, The stone which the builders rejected, the same is become the head of the corner: this is the Lord’s doing, and it is marvellous in our eyes?
21:43 Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.
21:44 And whosoever shall fall on this stone shall be broken: but on whomsoever it shall fall, it will grind him to powder.
21:45 And when the chief priests and Pharisees had heard his parables, they perceived that he spake of them. King James Bible

This verse is interesting "21:42 Jesus saith unto them, Did ye never read in the scriptures, The stone which the builders rejected, the same is become the head of the corner: this is the Lord’s doing, and it is marvellous in our eyes?

It also ties to Psalms: 118: 22 “The stone which the builders rejected has become the chief corner stone”.

It also ties to this story - Link - bahai.us/bahai-temple/history-and-architecture/cornerstone/

Regards Tony
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The thing about the parables is that JEsus explained them to his apostles. The thing about his apostles is that Jesus taught them personally for forty days and they received the holy spirit and spoke with tongues of fire immediately espousing God and proclaiming true doctrine and clear understanding more than any of them had done before. We didn’t need Mirza Hussain to explain anything, we needed the comforter and he came at Pentecost.
 
IgnatianPhilo said:
The thing is I don’t trust the quran, the quran doesn’t actually give the definition of what it is trying to refute. Say not three? What does that mean exactly? Say not three what? By time of muhammad our language had developed and Allah should have been able to inform muhammad what we believed and have him understand. We were not heading in the wrong direction by the time of Muhammad, we had advanced way beyond the point of heading down the path and had arrived at the castle of Nicea, constantinople, Augustine, John of Damascus and Gregory of Nazianzus.

My central question remains unanswered, when did we begin to go astray? For the life of me I must conclude it was with the apostles themselves for the things they taught no bahai can believe in now, that Jesus was the creator, that Jesus is our eternal high priest who alone has atoned for our sin, that he is the hope of the world, that he was God. Though I respect you more for trying to answer teh question than the rest of your fellow bahai.

But I will say one thing, a comment on your supposed covenant. You believe you are still part of this covenant, sort of like the jews who went astray. You believe if you go beyond its bounds God gives you no protection, yet you cannot say you are not already beyond its bounds. There is no garuntee if you admit the possiblity of falling away.

Its a regression back into law in my opinion. Whereas Christ came to set us free from the law, give us grace and in that grace fulfill the law better than we ever could while under it, you bahai have placed yourselves in the same position as the jews. you are very fond of using analogies, accept that you are like the jews, under a law that gives you no security but instead condemns you.
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IgnatianPhilo - IMHO - I think your question is answered in the first thing you have said above.

So when you asked "When did we begin to go astray? I would think It would be that the Christians did not accept the new Covenant of God founded by Muhammad.

IMHO what sets us free would be our adherence to the law. Deeds are above Words, we are to become one through works. This is why we live an earthly life to perfect our Deed/works. Just saying we beleive will never cut the mustard IMHO.

Regards Tony
 
IgnatianPhilo said:
The thing about the parables is that JEsus explained them to his apostles. The thing about his apostles is that Jesus taught them personally for forty days and they received the holy spirit and spoke with tongues of fire immediately espousing God and proclaiming true doctrine and clear understanding more than any of them had done before. We didn’t need Mirza Hussain to explain anything, we needed the comforter and he came at Pentecost.
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It is worth considering that the Word of God is steeped in Meaning. Why do we limit it?

It is why we are Human. Consider it is possible to get pages and pages of meaning from just Two letters B & E.

The Parables have deep significant meanings to which we are only privy to what we wish to see in them. This is the same as all the Word of God. We get what we want and then stop searching 🤷

I was with some Friends last night discussing this same theme. We also do this as Baha’is. We all reach a stage where our thirst has been satisfied and stop drinking. We do this until our thirst is again sparked to drink more.

If one wishes to beleive that Mankind has all Truth and it was Given to them at Pentecost and this satisfies their Thirst, then as the old saying goes I can in no way make them drink any more!

May we all Love the One True God and may Deeds be our Adorning!

Regards Tony
 
tonyfish58 said:
IgnatianPhilo - IMHO - I think your question is answered in the first thing you have said above.

So when you asked "When did we begin to go astray? I would think It would be that the Christians did not accept the new Covenant of God founded by Muhammad.

IMHO what sets us free would be our adherence to the law. Deeds are above Words, we are to become one through works. This is why we live an earthly life to perfect our Deed/works. Just saying we beleive will never cut the mustard IMHO.

Regards Tony
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So up until Muhammad we were all good?
 
tonyfish58 said:
It is worth considering that the Word of God is steeped in Meaning. Why do we limit it?

It is why we are Human. Consider it is possible to get pages and pages of meaning from just Two letters B & E.

The Parables have deep significant meanings to which we are only privy to what we wish to see in them. This is the same as all the Word of God. We get what we want and then stop searching 🤷

I was with some Friends last night discussing this same theme. We also do this as Baha’is. We all reach a stage where our thirst has been satisfied and stop drinking. We do this until our thirst is again sparked to drink more.

If one wishes to beleive that Mankind has all Truth and it was Given to them at Pentecost and this satisfies their Thirst, then as the old saying goes I can in no way make them drink any more!

May we all Love the One True God and may Deeds be our Adorning!

Regards Tony
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We limit the meaning of the word of God because God limited it, because Peter said there were those who read the apostle paul and distorted his meaning through their own misunderstanding and false pretenses. You bahai must limit the meaning, it cannot for instance be unlimited in meaning or else you can conclude contradictions from the very same passage understood two different ways. You bahai will say Jesus did miracles and now (because I think you have nowhere else to go) you will say the gospels were not meant to be taken literally. What miracles then did Jesus perform? That is what miracles did the historic Jesus perform? How do you know anything about Jesus and why he is to be believed? I suppose solely on Mirza Hussain you trust him, rather than refferring to Jesus himself as the base from which you should have started with, you start with Mirza Hussain and work backwards.
 
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