Reload this Page BAHA'I thread IV - feel free to ask of Baha'i any questions

[IgnatianPhilo]

Ignatian,
. I think that rather than framing the question such that people taught falsehoods, we might consider that people taught according to the understandings they had at the time, based upon the information available to them to form conclusions and issue dogma accordingly.

. All of this is revised when new information is introduced if it is reviewed without bias and conditioned by presupposed assumptions based solely upon traditions.

Is Jesus Christ God? Yes or no?

 

[Servant19]

Is Jesus Christ God? Yes or no?

No Jesus is NOT the Father.
Or is He? He did say He and the Father are One.

The question is, where does God come into this equation?
Who is God, and Who is the Father?

Baha’u’llah on more than one occasion says that He is the Father, as well as saying He is God.

For Baha’is, I really feel the relationship is a mystery, and to be honest bears little importance in comparison to the importance of DOING the Will of God.

“…whoever does the Will of God is my mother and my brother and my sister…” (Mark 3:35, Matthew 12:50)

In this regard, God/Father and His relationship with Jesus only matters on an epistemological sense.

 

[Nick44]

Is Jesus Christ God? Yes or no?

Yes or no? Actually, the answer is yes and no. It is an abstruse point. Here are some explanations from Baha’u’llah on the subject:

bahaullah.com/bahaullah-writings-god-part1.html

 

[Servant19]

This does not make sense, tony.

You are saying it is a valid question to ask, “How long will a spirit in heaven be without a body?” While also professing, “No one knows!”

Does this not seem to be nonsensical to you?

The question one must reconcile in this entire resurrection theology is how does a “timeless” place such as heaven (where there is no physical sun, and therefore no time) and the souls resident within it, correlate with a physical body that is totally bound by time?

There should be no need for a heaven because in a timeless environment they “instantly” travel forward in time to the End Times and reunite with their decomposed bodies. What purpose therefore does death serve? What purpose is there for a spiritual realm at all which we enter into upon death?

 

[tonyfish58]

When did Christianity start to teach falsehood according to Baha’i understanding.

I would have some statements from the church fathers in the second century considered before Baha’i respond.

That is a small selection of quotations which can be given and should more be asked to give a universal picture within the church of Christ being called God, honored as God, honored in a manner Baha’i could never honor him in, such examples should be given. But what are Baha’i to make of this, if it is the case that the church fell into corruption and the worst of all blasphemies (according to the Qur’an) immediately after. This is a question I have asked before of Baha’i, how are you guaranteed any more protection than the fledgling church?

IgnatianPhilo - Here are my answers to your questions - I have used passages that tell it straight, but require more study of other passages to give a fuller picture of what is being said.

The first question as you have mentioned is answered by the Qur’an. It is very clear on this subject. So in the mid 600’s a warning was given to man by God that they were heading in the wrong direction with a Trinity doctrine. These passages are quite confronting. Can you imagine what controversy they did bring! And of course still do!

Sura 5:72-73, 5:75 “They do blaspheme who say: “God is Christ the son of Mary.” They do blaspheme who say: God is one of three in a trinity: for there is no God except one God Allah. If they do not desist from their word of blasphemy, verily a grievous penalty will befall the blasphemers among them. Christ the son of Mary was no more than a Messenger; many were the Messengers that passed away before him.”

Sura 4:169 “Believe in God and his apostles and say not three…”

Thank you for the quotations which I have read, I may have a different understanding of a lot of those passages posted as you would expect.

As to the final question “how are you guaranteed any more protection than the fledgling church”?

The protection we are given is by abiding by the Covenant of Baha’u’llah which sets our path to take with interpretation of religious scripture. If we deviate from this covenant even to the extent of an Atom, then there is no protection.

To do this we offer quotes from the writings which are Gods Words, we are able to offer our own understanding which has no authority. Thus by offering quotes about these controversial subjects, I feel is the best way.

Baha’u’llah has also written re how the Muslims had also put a lot into interpretation and had also headed down the wrong path of understanding. The best study on this subject is the Katabi’i’quan - Link - reference.bahai.org/en/t/b/KI/

“Behold their folly: they utter the self-same words, uttered by the Jews of old, and know it not”!

“As the commentators of the Qur’án and they that follow the letter thereof misapprehended the inner meaning of the words of God and failed to grasp their essential purpose”…

“How vain their sophistry! How grievous their blindness”!

What must we do with these warnings? IMHO - Learn from them!

Regards Tony

 

[flameburns623]

The question one must reconcile in this entire resurrection theology is how does a “timeless” place such as heaven (where there is no physical sun, and therefore no time) and the souls resident within it, correlate with a physical body that is totally bound by time?

There should be no need for a heaven because in a timeless environment they “instantly” travel forward in time to the End Times and reunite with their decomposed bodies. What purpose therefore does death serve? What purpose is there for a spiritual realm at all which we enter into upon death?

Again, the assumptions are not true to what Christians understand of Heaven:

There may not be a “physical” sun but there will be a “real” Sun: God himself, the Ground-And-Being of reality will Himself be our Sun.

We will not be “reunited with our decomposed bodies”: we will be united with our gloried bodies, which will have a one-to-one ccorrespondence to our living bodies as we experience them now but freed of death, injury, dismemberment, and in general the effects of sin.

To some degree, understanding that we will have ‘glorified bodies’ does certain things:

It clarifies that although we will be freed of many limitations of our present sinful world–we will yet be limited.

Likewise, it implies we will be discrete individuals: I will not merge my individuality into some amorphous Cosmic Is wherein I am simultaneously the Great Is and Eric Hilbert and daler and Servant19 and Tonyfish58 and Flameburns623 all at the same time, in the same way, and in the same sense.

Likewise–although the Redeemed will be in some sense One Body and One Spirit, in oneness with God thru Christ–yet also we will retain individuality.

The issue you raise about Heavenly timelessness for the Redeemed is a Theodicy which has been discussed about God Himself. And without any entirely-satisfying answers. One proposal as I understand it is that “time” would exist, but differently than we would think of it or experience it, presently.

From our present, more linear and limited experience of time, the time-space continuum of Heaven would seem relatively timeless, but is in fact embodied in its own time-space. Quantum physics have been used to articulate analogies for this purpose–but always remember that analogies are strategies for ‘apprehending’ a ‘thing’–they are NOT the ‘thing’ itself.

A popular understanding of Heavenly time however is the analogy to dream-filled sleep–wherein, one first loses sense of consciousness, then experiences dreams which may seem to be only moments or may seem to occupy days, weeks, or months–yet, upon awakening to ‘normal time’ one finds that one has only slept six or seven or eight hours. The experience of ‘time’ while asleep is qualitatively different from the experience of time measured ‘objectively’ from our present space-time continuum.

Hope this helps!

 

[arthra]

Yes we are human SPIRITS.

No, the human being is not complete until it is united with it’s imperishable physical body.

Meaning that–because we live in PERISHABLE human bodies NOW–there is some part of us NOW which is not ‘fully human’. God’s Spirit within us is continually making us more into the image of Christ, more like the Perfect Man.

The Church and Her sacrament facilitate that–though we hope that any genuine spiritual pilgrimage is used by God to some degree to make human persons more as He would have them to be, more fully human because they grow more like His Son. Even if they do not accept Jesus explicitly as Lord and Savior.

And Heaven is not a ‘place’ properly speaking and it does not have “time” properly speaking.

Philosophically, your question doesn’t really make sense. It’s like speaking about a circular square or asking if an omnipotent deity can make a rock so heavy the deity could not lift it. It contains within it fallacious assumptions.

As to the Baha’i view of body and spirit I think there is a clear distinction here that should be made… We don’t have a specific view of a “glorified” body as you…

The body is composed, in truth, of corporeal elements and every composition is necessarily subject to decomposition; but the spirit is an essence, simple, pure, spiritual, eternal, perpetual and divine. He who seeketh Christ from the point of view of His body hath, in truth, debased Him and hath gone astray from Him; but he who seeketh Christ from the point of view of His Spirit will grow from day to day in joy, attraction, zeal, proximity, perception and vision.

~ Abdu’l-Baha, Tablets of Abdu’l-Baha v2, p. 316

and

We must strive unceasingly and without rest to accomplish the development of the spiritual nature in man, and endeavor with tireless energy to advance humanity toward the nobility of its true and intended station. For the body of man is accidental; it is of no importance. The time of its disintegration will inevitably come. But the spirit of man is essential and, therefore, eternal. It is a divine bounty. It is the effulgence of the Sun of Reality and, therefore, of greater importance than the physical body.

~ Abdu’l-Baha, The Promulgation of Universal Peace, p. 59

Incarnation rejected:

The idea that the spirit is incarnate also relates to this issue. Not only is our spirit not incarnate in our body but God does not incarnate Himself is a central belief of our Faith…

Now regarding the question whether the faculties of the mind and the human soul are one and the same. These faculties are but the inherent properties of the soul, such as the power of imagination, of thought, of understanding; powers that are the essential requisites of the reality of man, even as the solar ray is the inherent property of the sun. The temple of man is like unto a mirror, his soul is as the sun, and his mental faculties even as the rays that emanate from that source of light. The ray may cease to fall upon the mirror, but it can in no wise be dissociated from the sun.

(Abdu'l-Baha, Tablet to August Forel, p. 24)

The soul is not connected to the body…The body returns to the elements from whence it came…

Heaven and Hell

Our view of heaven/hell is also that it is a condition not a place or locale… Nearness to God is heaven and remoteness from God is hell in our belief.

"We will have experience of God’s spirit through His Prophets in the next world, but God is too great for us to know without this Intermediary. The Prophets know God, but how is more than our human minds can grasp. We believe we may attain in the next world to seeing the Prophets. There is certainly a future life. Heaven and hell are conditions within our own beings."

(From a letter written on behalf of Shoghi Effendi to an individual believer, November 14, 1947)
(Compilations, Lights of Guidance, p. 209)

 

[Sen_McGlinn]

… , the human being is not complete until it is united with it’s imperishable physical body.

Meaning that–because we live in PERISHABLE human bodies NOW–there is some part of us NOW which is not ‘fully human’. .

Thank you for that flameburns; perhaps I should have understood that bit of doctrine long ago, for it is a logical implication from the language of resurrection in a glorified body.

That raises the question: when Christ was in a physical body, was he also not fully human? But that’s a question I should ask on one of the threads for discussing Catholic doctrines

**

 

[tonyfish58]

When did Christianity start to teach falsehood according to Baha’i understanding.

I would have some statements from the church fathers in the second century considered before bahai respond.

Could not these Bible Passage also tell of the progress of Religion and answer the question asked?

Matthew 13:13 Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand. King James Bible

Matthew 21:33 Hear another parable: There was a certain householder, which planted a vineyard, and hedged it round about, and digged a winepress in it, and built a tower, and let it out to husbandmen, and went into a far country:
21:34 And when the time of the fruit drew near, he sent his servants to the husbandmen, that they might receive the fruits of it.
21:35 And the husbandmen took his servants, and beat one, and killed another, and stoned another.
21:36 Again, he sent other servants more than the first: and they did unto them likewise.
21:37 But last of all he sent unto them his son, saying, They will reverence my son.
21:38 But when the husbandmen saw the son, they said among themselves, This is the heir; come, let us kill him, and let us seize on his inheritance.
21:39 And they caught him, and cast him out of the vineyard, and slew him.
21:40 When the lord therefore of the vineyard cometh, what will he do unto those husbandmen?
21:41 They say unto him, He will miserably destroy those wicked men, and will let out his vineyard unto other husbandmen, which shall render him the fruits in their seasons.
21:42 Jesus saith unto them, Did ye never read in the scriptures, The stone which the builders rejected, the same is become the head of the corner: this is the Lord’s doing, and it is marvellous in our eyes?
21:43 Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.
21:44 And whosoever shall fall on this stone shall be broken: but on whomsoever it shall fall, it will grind him to powder.
21:45 And when the chief priests and Pharisees had heard his parables, they perceived that he spake of them. King James Bible

This verse is interesting "21:42 Jesus saith unto them, Did ye never read in the scriptures, The stone which the builders rejected, the same is become the head of the corner: this is the Lord’s doing, and it is marvellous in our eyes?

It also ties to Psalms: 118: 22 “The stone which the builders rejected has become the chief corner stone”.

It also ties to this story - Link - bahai.us/bahai-temple/history-and-architecture/cornerstone/

Regards Tony

 

[Porknpie]

PS Steve, briefly, we would say that Christ is the “Lamp”, and there have been other Lamps, such as Moses, Abraham, David, and Noah, before Him. If the Jews said to Paul, Moses is the Light, I suspect he would identify Him as the Lamp, and that a new Lamp had appeared, bearing the same Light.

(I’m a bit behind on reading this thread)

There have been lamps sent by God. And God has always made a covenant promise with each of them and a covenant sign. Below by covenant type, promise and sign

Adam … …marraige…promise of redemption …sabbath
Noah … …household …promise of no future flood … …the rainbow
Abraham…tribe…promise of the seed to outnumber the stars…circumcision
Moses…nation…promise of land for obediance…passover
David…kingdom…promise of eternal future kingdom & messiah…throne
Jesus… Catholic Church/world…promise of eternal life & resurrection…the Eucharist
Baha’u’llah …?..?..?

My question is, what convenant type, promise and sign does Baha’u’llah bring to God’s plan of salvation history ?



PnP

 

[Nick44]

(I’m a bit behind on reading this thread)

There have been lamps sent by God. And God has always made a covenant promise with each of them and a covenant sign. Below by covenant type, promise and sign

Adam … …marraige…promise of redemption …sabbath
Noah … …household …promise of no future flood … …the rainbow
Abraham…tribe…promise of the seed to outnumber the stars…circumcision
Moses…nation…promise of land for obediance…passover
David…kingdom…promise of eternal future kingdom & messiah…throne
Jesus… Catholic Church/world…promise of eternal life & resurrection…the Eucharist
Baha’u’llah …?..?..?

My question is, what convenant type, promise and sign does Baha’u’llah bring to God’s plan of salvation history ?



PnP

Here is info on the meaning of the Baha’i Covenant:

bahaikipedia.org/Covenant

 

[eddie_too]

it is important to remember that when communicating with a bahai, he or she is not christian and believes nothing that christians teach.

they pick and choose what parts of christian scriptures to re-interpret. they re-interpret with scant knowledge of christian teachings.

they are unaware of how and where their teachings lack a reasonable understanding of reality.

they believe that christians are the ones who misinterpret the scriptures that christians wrote. they believe the apostles did not even know what was happening around them while it was happening.

they have little to virtually no interest in the christian faith.

they are only on this thread to try and get people to stop believing in Jesus as the One God, infinite and eternal, all-knowing and all-powerful.

their entire belief system is based on the idea that Jesus is not our Creator.

is there much else a christian needs to know about the bahai religion?

 

[Nick44]

it is important to remember that when communicating with a bahai, he or she is not christian and believes nothing that christians teach.

they pick and choose what parts of christian scriptures to re-interpret. they re-interpret with scant knowledge of christian teachings.

they are unaware of how and where their teachings lack a reasonable understanding of reality.

they believe that christians are the ones who misinterpret the scriptures that christians wrote. they believe the apostles did not even know what was happening around them while it was happening.

they have little to virtually no interest in the christian faith.

they are only on this thread to try and get people to stop believing in Jesus as the One God, infinite and eternal, all-knowing and all-powerful.

their entire belief system is based on the idea that Jesus is not our Creator.

is there much else a christian needs to know about the bahai religion?

Eddie, millions of people around the world, who were born into non-Christian religions, have come to knowledge and belief in the divine mission of Jesus Christ through their recognition of Baha’u’llah. For us, belief in Baha’u’llah and belief in Jesus are one and the same.

One God has had many bearers of His message to mankind and will have many more in the future. My God is not bigger than your God; it’s the one and the same God!

 

[flameburns623]

Thank you for that flameburns; perhaps I should have understood that bit of doctrine long ago, for it is a logical implication from the language of resurrection in a glorified body.

That raises the question: when Christ was in a physical body, was he also not fully human? But that’s a question I should ask on one of the threads for discussing Catholic doctrines

**

You might recollect that Catholics teach that Mary was conceived without Original Sin – that Christ, being born without Original Sin was likewise without sin – that Christ’s Body did not see corruption but was resurrected – that, following His Resurection He ascended bodily into Heaven – and that upon Her death, the Blessed Virgin’s body also was Assumed into Heaven.

That’s how those doctrines fit together in the Catholic view of Heaven.

Does this help?

 

[Servant19]

(I’m a bit behind on reading this thread)

There have been lamps sent by God. And God has always made a covenant promise with each of them and a covenant sign. Below by covenant type, promise and sign

Adam … …marraige…promise of redemption …sabbath
Noah … …household …promise of no future flood … …the rainbow
Abraham…tribe…promise of the seed to outnumber the stars…circumcision
Moses…nation…promise of land for obediance…passover
David…kingdom…promise of eternal future kingdom & messiah…throne
Jesus… Catholic Church/world…promise of eternal life & resurrection…the Eucharist
Baha’u’llah …?..?..?

My question is, what convenant type, promise and sign does Baha’u’llah bring to God’s plan of salvation history ?



PnP

Hi Pork,

As well as what Nick44 has offered above, which I think is an essential read, I may add that the examples that you gave reflect some of the signs or promises given by the Messengers of God. In this light I would say that Baha’u’llah brings the promise of the unification of mankind to the table in relation to salvation history

 

[eddie_too]

nick44,

i worship Jesus Christ as my One God, my Lord and my Creator.

you, and your fellow bahai, do NOT worship Jesus Christ as your One God, your Lord and your Creator.

so, you can write whatever you like about believing in the same God, but you deny that Jesus is your God and your Creator while i affirm Jesus as my God and Creator.

that is the most important thing for christians to know about the bahai religion.

the rest is just collections of words that often make no sense and most often little sense.

you are here to persuade people that it is incorrect to worship Jesus as their Lord and Creator.

all i want is for all of the christians who read your words to know that your starting point in religion is diametrically opposed to their faith.

whether you like that or not is irrelevant, because any honest person would admit it.

so, when you bahai who post here preface your statements with the fact that your religion totally and completely reject christians’ belief that Jesus is the One God, their Lord and Creator, then i will accept that your posts here are not intended to deceive.

i acknowledge that occasionally a bahai has written that bahism is not a christian sect. my point is, that for the sake of people who read your posts for the first time, that you should lead your comments with the fact that you reject Jesus Christ as the One God and as your Creator. if you do that, people will not be fooled in to thinking that you believe Jesus Christ is the One God when you claim that Jesus is a manifestation of God.

i am not that worried about myself because i know the truth about the bahai. there may be others who do not know the truth about the bahai and may allow the bahai to create doubts about the need for Jesus Christ and the salvation that is available only through Him.

this is nothing personal. it is entirely meant to make sure that the most important element of bahism (their denial of Jesus as the One God) is front and center in the proselytizing presentations made here by bahai.

 

[Servant19]

Eddie, are you saying that Jesus is the Father?

Or that Jesus is God?

 

[eddie_too]

i guess i was not clear the first time.

i believe Jesus of Nazareth, the Christ, the Messiah, the Savior, is the One God, the Creator of ALL THINGS, the Second Person of the Most Holy Trinity. that is the christian belief.

the christian belief is diametrically opposed to the bahai teachings.

lead with that thought.

the bahai do NOT teach that Jesus Christ fully, completely, intrinsically possesses the same Divine Nature as the Father.

since the bahai do not believe that and they are on a RCC thread, it is simple respect to make sure that all christians who might read any one of their posts know that the words are written by a human being who does not believe Jesus Christ possesses the same Divine Nature as the Father.

does that make it any clearer for you? if not, feel welcome to ask another question. i am sincerely trying to make clear to all of the bahai who are reading this thread that it is deceptive to not lead with the bahai’s rejection of the beleif that Jesus possesse fully, in every regard, without any question the same Divine Nature as His Father.

 

[Nick44]

nick44,

i worship Jesus Christ as my One God, my Lord and my Creator.

you, and your fellow bahai, do NOT worship Jesus Christ as your One God, your Lord and your Creator.

so, you can write whatever you like about believing in the same God, but you deny that Jesus is your God and your Creator while i affirm Jesus as my God and Creator.

that is the most important thing for christians to know about the bahai religion.

the rest is just collections of words that often make no sense and most often little sense.

you are here to persuade people that it is incorrect to worship Jesus as their Lord and Creator.

all i want is for all of the christians who read your words to know that your starting point in religion is diametrically opposed to their faith.

whether you like that or not is irrelevant, because any honest person would admit it.

so, when you bahai who post here preface your statements with the fact that your religion totally and completely reject christians’ belief that Jesus is the One God, their Lord and Creator, then i will accept that your posts here are not intended to deceive.

i acknowledge that occasionally a bahai has written that bahism is not a christian sect. my point is, that for the sake of people who read your posts for the first time, that you should lead your comments with the fact that you reject Jesus Christ as the One God and as your Creator. if you do that, people will not be fooled in to thinking that you believe Jesus Christ is the One God when you claim that Jesus is a manifestation of God.

i am not that worried about myself because i know the truth about the bahai. there may be others who do not know the truth about the bahai and may allow the bahai to create doubts about the need for Jesus Christ and the salvation that is available only through Him.

this is nothing personal. it is entirely meant to make sure that the most important element of bahism (their denial of Jesus as the One God) is front and center in the proselytizing presentations made here by bahai.

Nothing personal here either, Eddie.

One Christian faith, yet many thousands of conflicting interpretations and sects that have served to divide and not unify. Daniel is told that the Book is ‘sealed’ until the time of the end when the true meanings would be revealed. Baha’u’llah even explains that if all the oceans were turned into ink and all trees into pens, it would still not be enough to record all the hidden meanings of the Holy Words, not just from the Bible, but of all revealed major religions.

With the benefit of history, we can observe how the Jews had certain interpretations of their scriptures which caused them to deny Christ when they were not literally fulfilled. Had they honestly inquired of Jesus, he would have explained their true meanings and of His fulfillment of them.

Baha’u’llah invites all to investigate His claim.

 

[SteveVH]

Thank you for the Frank Observation on the current status of Religion, when you said “when you make statements such as “Religion is one” that people begin to have doubts”.

If you were to judge religion on its followers then that is the only conclusion one could draw, I would have to agree!

I am making no judgment on individual followers of any religion. There are plenty of Catholics who do not live out their faith. No one should judge a religion on the basis of those who do not follow the religion they profess.

If we look at it with the eyes of the Religions Prophet, then there could be a lot more discussion had on this subject, what actually divides the Religions? Is it the Word of God or is it how the people take the Word of God?

This is the primary fallacy of the Baha’i religion, in my opinion. It is the refusal to acknowledge the differences and direct conflicts in beliefs and instead attribute them to man’s inability or unwillingness to understand and accept those beliefs. It is the assumption that all religions teach the same thing and all that claim to be prophets are indeed prophets, if we could only become enlightened enough to recognize them.

Christ warned us that there would be false prophets and we must constantly be on guard against those who would turn our gaze to another, such as Muhammad or Baha’u’llah. Please understand this very well. As Christians, we believe that Christ is the final revelation of God to mankind and there will be no other. He has come and will come again at the end of human history; not in some other personage, but as Jesus of Nazareth.

“And then if anyone says to you, ‘Behold, here is the Christ’; or, ‘Behold, He is there’; do not believe him; for false Christs and false prophets will arise, and will show signs and wonders, in order to lead astray, if possible, the elect.…” (Mark 13:21-22)

Life & Death, The Day of God, Judgement Day, The Return etc are all steeped in meaning and have held people far from God for many thousands of years.

What a curious statement. Do you understand what you have just said? You have just claimed that the Christian belief in a final judgment (a revelation from Christ himself, no less) has held people far from God. Please explain why this would hold people far from God?

If God is One, then it is up to us to consider how this is so, given what we do with His Revealed Word!

Regards Tony

God is one. Mankind is not. Our eternal destiny is to be one with God which is accomplished by the grace of Christ if we accept and respond to this gift with our lives. You once again begin with a false premise; that all of those you consider “prophets” are, indeed, prophets, and that our task is to resolve the “apparent” conflicts between the prophets under the assumption that they are not in conflict at all. As a Catholic I would have to reject the entire premise on which your faith is based. I follow Jesus Christ. I will never follow another, especially when they claim to be Christ himself. These are the exact type of false prophets referred to in the Gospel of Mark.