P
PRmerger
Guest
What is it that you mean by “Church Cannon”?
Reload this Page BAHA'I thread IV - feel free to ask of Baha'i any questions
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J
Jcc1960
Guest
I’m not the expert, but just googled itWhat is it that you mean by “Church Cannon”?
newadvent.org/cathen/09056a.htm
This was posted on Catholic Community Forum:
"Canon law is the body of laws and regulations made by or adopted by ecclesiastical authority, for the government of the Christian organization and its members.
This catechism differs from other summaries of Christian doctrine for the instruction of the people in two points: it is primarily intended for priests having care of souls (ad parochos), and it enjoys an authority equalled by no other catechism. The need of a popular authoritative manual arose from a lack of systematic knowledge among pre-Reformation clergy and the concomitant neglect of religious instruction among the faithful.
Canon law is the ‘whole she-bang’, a very detailed set of laws that only canon lawyers are comfortable wading through with confidence.
The catechism is the everyday Catholic’s user manual. It was designed to explains key elements of the Church’s teaching, including canon law, in a way which non-lawyers can understand. "
P
PRmerger
Guest
Ah, so you were talking about Canon Law.
Canon Law concerns the behavior of those under the shepherding of the Church. It does not speak specifically to Mary’s PV, as that is part of the teaching of the Church. Not Canon Law.
So I believe you probably misunderstood what your priest was trying to tell you.
J
Jcc1960
Guest
Maybe, but it is also possible that the priest in question had beliefs that were at variance with the church teachings on the subject. This was an Irish missionary priest in the Caribbean who also had a “liberation theology” tendency. A really great friend, too.
Any way, sorry for pulling the discussion off topic. This is the Baha’i thread after all.
P
PRmerger
Guest
Well, I think this is a very good example of how some people who leave the Church leave a Church that they do not understand. :sad_yes:
S
SteveVH
Guest
Bingo!
J
Jcc1960
Guest
I had left the church before meeting this priest.
In any case I don’t believe that Mary was perpetually a virgin. I don’t see it as theologically necessary, because having children is not sinful.
The Baha’i Faith teaches that Mary was a virgin and Jesus was conceived through the Holy Spirit, without sexual relations. But, Mary and Joseph had children together afterwards, and there is nothing about that which diminishes Mary’s saintly character, or that of Jesus as a Manifestation of the Divine presence.
P
PRmerger
Guest
But the point remains that you didn’t know enough about your faith to answer the priest correctly.
P
PRmerger
Guest
The Catholic Church does not teach that having children is sinful.
C
Credo_in_Deum
Guest
I think the confusion here comes from the idea that the marriage act is the only way to beget children.
Mary didn’t stay a Virgin because she thought sexual relations were sinful or disgusting. No I believe Mary remained a Virgin for the exact same reason priests remain celibate. They know that by freely giving up the beautiful sacrament of marriage and the marriage act, they will exchange the ability to beget children in the flesh, for the ability to beget children in the spirit. Paul knew this joy which is why he called Timothy his son even though he wasn’t his son according to the flesh. I believe Mary knew this joy too which is why she didn’t have any more children according to the flesh because she was already going to be a spiritual mother to all who Christ would redeem. Let’s face it Mary wanted a HUGE family, one too big for poor Joseph to physically provide. Yet God in His infinite wisdom knew this which is why He selected Mary and which is why at the foot of the cross -after thinking of her eagerness at the marriage feast to have Him begin His Hour for our redemption, because she loves us- He spoke those beautiful words making His mother, Mother of us all.
"When Jesus therefore had seen his mother and the disciple standing whom he loved, he saith to his mother: Woman, behold thy son. After that, he saith to the disciple: Behold thy mother. And from that hour, the disciple took her to his own."
P
PRmerger
Guest
The belief in Mary’s PV comes from our belief in the Divinity of Christ.I think the confusion here comes from the idea that the marriage act is the only way to beget children.
Let’s face it Mary wanted a HUGE family, one too big for poor Joseph to physically provide. Yet God in His infinite wisdom knew this which is why He selected Mary and which is why at the foot of the cross -after thinking of her eagerness at the marriage feast to have Him begin His Hour for our redemption, because she loves us- He spoke those beautiful words making His mother, Mother of us all.
"When Jesus therefore had seen his mother and the disciple standing whom he loved, he saith to his mother: Woman, behold thy son. After that, he saith to the disciple: Behold thy mother. And from that hour, the disciple took her to his own."
As all teachings on Mary do, they only serve to enhance, nourish and highlight our understanding of Christ.
Everything about Mary points to Jesus.
Thus, if Mary had other children, non-Christians would have a more difficult time accepting the Divinity of Christ.
She was the Ark of the Covenant, which contained He Who Could Not Be Contained in her womb for 9 months.
Her womb would never have carried anything else. That would be like the Ark of the Covenant carrying some pretty desert pebbles, after it had contained the Divine Word.
A
arthra
Guest
I was a little unsure Jcc that we Baha’is teach “Mary and Joseph had children together afterwards” but did find a reference:
- Christ’s Brothers and Sisters Born Natural Way
(From a letter written on behalf of the Guardian to Dr. Shook November 19, 1945: Bahá’í News, No. 210, p. 3, August 1948)
Code:
(Compilations, Lights of Guidance, p. 489)There were traditions that Joseph may have had children from a prior marriage or that there were cousins involved.
For Baha’is it’s not an issue so much… as in the Qur’an Jesus birth was miraculous.
P
PRmerger
Guest
You are aware, arthra, that we don’t believe that immaculately conceived is the same as the virgin birth, right?
We don’t call the conception of Jesus the “immaculate conception”. That refers to Mary’s conception. Not Christ’s.
J
Jcc1960
Guest
The point was that I agreed with him!
But really, I consider questions like whether Mary was perpetually a virgin, or whether the brothers of Jesus might really have been cousins as minor doctrinal points. I would not have left the Catholic Church to become a Baha’i because of that.
The reason why I am a Baha’i is because I see the same truth in Baha’u’llah as I see in Jesus, and unfortunately, that is not something the Catholic Church accepts.
P
PRmerger
Guest
The point** I **was making, Jcc, was that you left a faith that you didn’t know.
C
Credo_in_Deum
Guest
Thank you my friend. My response to Jcc1960 was done the way it was, because Jcc1960’s remarks made it sound like Mary’s PV was an obstacle to her having more children when it is really the opposite which is true.
J
Jcc1960
Guest
Reading through the points you make here, Mary becomes a theological construct rather than a person who really lived. There seems to be a contradiction with saying Christ was both fully human and fully divine, but saying that the circumstances of His human life could not have been such that he had brothers born of the same mother, which is common to all who are fully human.
Or, maybe you are saying that it could have happened physically, but it would not have been appropriate for that to have occurred? But that is really the same issue as above, I don’t see anything that constrains Christ’s divine nature if Mary had other children. That is an essential aspect of Divinity, it is not constrained by any physical limitations, not even ones that we imagine.
P
PRmerger
Guest
Yup. You got it.
It is simply fitting that the womb which contained He Who Could Not Be Contained, contained no one else.
It speaks to the supremity of whom she carried.
Just like the Ark of the Covenant. It never carried anything except the Divine Word.
Bahaullah’s mother? What does the Bahai faith say about her? Was she set apart for your divine manifestation? Or was she mother for lots of brothers and sisters of the divine manifestation?
P
PRmerger
Guest
D
daler
Guest
I can hear a Jew saying to Paul: “The point is, you left a faith that you didn’t know.”
So the question arises, “Who really knows their faith?”
Did the Jew who remained a Jew really know his faith?
Or did Paul, who recognized Jesus to be the Messiah really know his faith?
So the matter really becomes one of recognition.
How does one come to “recognize” Jesus as the Messiah.
The answer is with spiritual eyes wide open.
How does one come to recognize Baha’u’llah, as Jcc has done?
With spiritual eyes …
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