Reload this Page BAHA'I thread IV - feel free to ask of Baha'i any questions

[Nick44]

My two questions have not been answered.

How do you establish that the early church was corrupted (by which a manifestation was needed)?

What is the word? An abstract concept? A distinct substance apart from God? Or God himself? Or something else?

Why can’t we say the 1000 year prophecy was a metaphore? After all bahai declare when Jesus said “I am not a ghost, for ghosts do not eat,” a metaphore in the gospel of Luke. It seems to me perfectly reasonable that you have misunderstood your prophet just like Christians corrupted Chistianity (somehow).

Baha’u’llah is explicit in His meaning of ‘1,000 years’ Quote:

reference.bahai.org/en/t/b/GWB/gwb-166.html

 

[arthra]

Why thank you Arthur, but that very literal description is most certainly a metaphore right? So why can’t I read the 1000 year promise as being a metaphore? No matter how literal the text might indicate? In trying to mock what I admit is my very poor spelling and often times very poor grammar you cannot address the purely arbitrary nature of interpreting a text which lays before you. You will insist beyond all reasonable doubt that Luke must be describing a metaphore, that Jesus Christ did not raise from the dead despite Luke presenting Christ as very physical, not a ghost, eating with his apostles, proving to his aposltes he is real. But with absolute dogmatic certitude every bahai must believe the 1000 year thing is literal. This is a problem for bahai and ignoring it, like you have done with so many of our criticisms doesn’t help you in the end.

You’re welcome! After reading your posts for a year or so on the Baha’i Forums I felt moved to correct your spelling of resurrection…

You ask about Luke 24:36-45 verses … We have no specific statements I’m aware of so you’ll have to be content with my surmise that it could refer to a visionary experience of the disciples … similar to the one described on the Mount of Transfiguration… Visionary experiences were regarded as real as physical reality…

Showing the wounds revealed both who He was and His martyrdom and sacrifice…

The problem some scholars have is with the verse 40

40 *And as he spoke thus, he shewed them his hands and his feet.
*
Is that it is not in some of the earlier texts…

Luke 24:40 – “When he had said this, He showed them His hands and His feet” – is attested by all extant Greek copies of Luke except for Codex Bezae. It is also absent from seven Old Latin copies, and from both the Sinaitic Syriac and the Curetonian Syriac.

tcg.iphpbb3.com/forum/64774768nx21631/textual-criticism-general-discussion-f18/lk-2437-53-the-doctrinal-impact-of-some-textual-variants-t257.html

There may have been a doctrinal influence inserted…and this is found from the textual criticism.

In the issue you raise about the “1000 years” you may be referring to the statement revealed by Baha’u’llah that in no less than a thousand years a new Manifestation would appear…

The text reads:

Whoso layeth claim to a Revelation direct from
God, ere the expiration of a full thousand years, such a
man is assuredly a lying impostor. We pray God that
He may graciously assist him to retract and repudiate
such claim. Should he repent, God will, no doubt,
forgive him. If, however, he persisteth in his error,
God will, assuredly, send down one who will deal
mercilessly with him. Terrible, indeed, is God in
punishing! Whosoever interpreteth this verse otherwise
than its obvious meaning is deprived of the Spirit of
God and of His mercy which encompasseth all created
things.

(Baha'u'llah, The Kitab-i-Aqdas, p. 32)

So it has an obvious meaning and is authentic for us… No one has suggested any evidence of tampering with the text.

 

[Lochias]

I think when the Manifestation of God Himself says that this should be taken literally, then generally people know.

Apparently not, or else we’d all be Bahai.

 

[Lochias]

St. Francis once teased someone who was fond of long-winded and overly-flowery speeches by saying to them:

“I am but a little bird, too-ra-loo-ra-loo! Much do I say, but little do I do!”

I can think of nothing better to say to all of the Bahai in this thread. I have never seen group of people so incapable of simply ANSWERING A QUESTION IN A STRAIGHTFORWARD MANNER as these folks.

Good God.

 

[SteveVH]

Of course, it tells me that there is NEED and a REQUIREMENT for each age.

And so there was no need for humanity to live in peace and harmony in Jesus’ time through some sort of corporate salvation? Why is that? Why is it that we only need this now?

There is a reason why in Matthew, Jesus says that through our works we attain salvation, it’s not just by sitting back and having faith in Jesus, and that’s it, all our sins are forgiven, and heaven here we come…

It’s faith AND works. “These twin duties are inseparable…” (Kitab-i-Aqdas)

Yes, Catholics have always believed that both faith and works are necessary. This is certainly not a novel concept.

The clouds of obscurity have been removed and the splendour of the “I AM” can be seen with all it’s glory again

It can? Please show me the splendor of the “I AM” in all of HIS glory. I fail to see this in Baha’u’llah. If the clouds of obscurity have been lifted, should not this be very clear to everyone?

 

[Servant19]

St. Francis once teased someone who was fond of long-winded and overly-flowery speeches by saying to them:

“I am but a little bird, too-ra-loo-ra-loo! Much do I say, but little do I do!”

I can think of nothing better to say to all of the Bahai in this thread. I have never seen group of people so incapable of simply ANSWERING A QUESTION IN A STRAIGHTFORWARD MANNER as these folks.

Good God.

Is there a specific question you have in mind Lochias?

 

[Lochias]

Is there a specific question you have in mind Lochias?

It’s just a general observation on this and the other Bahai threads. It’s like pulling teeth, getting you folks to answer something straight, without all of the misdirection and fluff and poetry. It’s a forum for dialogue, not a coffee house or a Bahai place of worship.

 

[Servant19]

It’s just a general observation on this and the other Bahai threads. It’s like pulling teeth, getting you folks to answer something straight, without all of the misdirection and fluff and poetry. It’s a forum for dialogue, not a coffee house or a Bahai place of worship.

Theres plenty of dialogue and straight talking.

If you cant handle the odd quote from the Word of God directly from His Pen, then I suggest you humbly ask for the meaning of anything you are unable to understand.

Nothing brings more willingness to assist and accompany other peoples learning than the humble posture of willingness to understand.

Rather than kicking and screaming about the flowery language, do what a normal adult does, ask for further clarification.

So I ask you again, was there anything specific? Or have we upset you in any way?

 

[Servant19]

I hope the above was a straight enough answer for you

 

[Lochias]

Theres plenty of dialogue and straight talking.

Only after it’s hammered out of you for 3 pages. I’ve seen coal miners who looked less exhausted after a day’s work.

If you cant handle the odd quote from the Word of God directly from His Pen, then I suggest you humbly ask for the meaning of anything you are unable to understand.

I and others here understand a lot more than you might want us to. You have yet to prove that your guy’s anything but a nice, regular Joe that’s written some nice things, and all the quotes you’ve provided so far have offered absolutely zip in the way of that proof.

We’re still waiting.

Nothing brings more willingness to assist and accompany other peoples learning than the humble posture of willingness to understand.

Awesome. You should start practicing that straightaway.

Rather than kicking and screaming about the flowery language, do what a normal adult does, ask for further clarification.

I’m not confused about anything you’ve said, just exasperated that it takes three to four pages to get you to answer a simple, one sentence question without half o the the Bahama’s (irrelevant) life story getting thrown into the mix, every answer.

So I ask you again, was there anything specific? Or have we upset you in any way?

No, nothing specific, as much as you seem to wish there was. All that you’ve actually told us would fit in a thimble; not hard to understand. Have you upset me? Yes.

***Please answer questions like adults. ***

Thank you.

 

[Lochias]

I hope the above was a straight enough answer for you

It’s as rambling and off-the-topic as anything else you’ve posted so far. Not sure what I was hoping for, really.

 

[Servant19]

And so there was no need for humanity to live in peace and harmony in Jesus’ time through some sort of corporate salvation? Why is that? Why is it that we only need this now?

We need it now because human consciousness has developed to be globally embracing. 2000 years ago, a Jew in Judea had no idea what an Australian Aboriginal was, never mind embrace him as his equal. In fact, Jews struggled to embrace Gentiles full stop. The ability to embrace one’s neighbour was all that was required at the time in the steady step towards global solidarity, which is what we can embrace today.

Yes, Catholics have always believed that both faith and works are necessary. This is certainly not a novel concept.

Which goes to show that things really have not changed, from Gods perspective

But what has changed is the environment in which God’s Spirit finds itself today. How can we as human beings “harness” this eternal spiritual vibrancy that is released when God reveals Himself to man, and apply it to the current condition of society. Works means nothing if it doesn’t provide some benefit. You can’t go into a sweet shop and offer some sweets, it means nothing. What’s the point in selling a few sweets to a sweet manufacturer? At the same time, what’s the point in being the greatest sweet manufacturer when the entire governing system of the country is “anti-sweets”?

Extrapolating from this, what is the point in being the most just, loving and humble person when the entire system and social structure in which you reside in reflects injustice, hatred, and pride?

The social structures of society are rotten from the very inside, they are crumbling at the seams. The works of today reflect the bringing about of a new social order. Being engaged in such works, as an individual, brings individual salvation, AS WELL AS collective salvation. This is the difference. Baha’is works involves changing the very structure of society, with all the attributes of God at its very core.

It can? Please show me the splendor of the “I AM” in all of HIS glory. I fail to see this in Baha’u’llah. If the clouds of obscurity have been lifted, should not this be very clear to everyone?

It wasn’t so clear during the Ministry of Jesus, and for many it still isn’t. Nothing has changed with Baha’u’llah. God still works in His own way. Only us humans have shortcomings

 

[Servant19]

It’s as rambling and off-the-topic as anything else you’ve posted so far. Not sure what I was hoping for, really.

As much as you enjoy one sentence answers, Baha’is actually prefer to provide a good context to the answer to any questions. Providing quotes ensures that the correct perspective is given so that human interpretations cannot “pollute” the answer (if thats not too flowery a concept )

Many Catholics prefer to answer in this manner too. If you’ve read all the Baha’i threads, then I’m sure you would’ve come across a lovely Catholic poster by the name of Vouthon. Do you have the same qualms with him too? Does he make you upset?

Why do you get so easily upset Lochias?

 

[Sen_McGlinn]

or not it is “supernatural” or miraculous. My impression, thus far, is that anything that is not considered “normal” or not “naturally” observed in this world seems to be dismissed as “absurd” and therefore the Baha’i search for another meaning.

For example, when Christ demonstrated some the attributes of a glorified body (eating food while able to walk through solid objects) the Baha’i assume that this is simply “absurd” because this does not occur in the natural world. The fact that this is a supernatural act, therefore, by definition, something outside of and above the natural order, is simply not considered as a possibility, and this is in spite of the fact that we have eye witnesses to the event.

I would appreciate your thoughts.

Even it is not absurd - we still search for another meaning

In this, we Bahais can place ourselves in a long tradition of scriptural readings (exegesis), from Jewish symbolic interpretations, through Origen’s three-fold meanings, and on to more elaborate medieval and scholastic schemes. “The Bible as literature” is not a 20th century idea in fact. In all these traditions, Bahai included, the literary approach involves the question how we do know when the literal meaning is not the primary meaning? And among all the teleological and metaphorical and allegorical readings, how do we know which to reject? I don’t know of any easy answer to this, except for Origen’s rule of reading the scripture in the light of scripture, and then praying. Since “in the light of revelation” for Bahais includes the Bahai scriptures, we are likely to come to different readings. The words of scripture may mean something different to us as Bahais - without this entailing a claim that those words always REALLY meant what they mean to Bahais. To take an example, “…To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the hidden manna, and will give him a white stone, and in the stone a new name written, which no man knoweth saving he that receiveth it.” (Revelation 2:17) To a Bahai, the literal meaning of “a white stone” is not primary, while the teleological meaning appears as plain and loud as thunder. The verse has been reshaped by being transported into the Bahai context. The same could be said of scriptural verses which have had one meaning in early church history, and another at a later date. The application of the exodus to the abolition of slavery in the 19th and 20th centuries is an example. This is precisely the nature of scripture, that it is reinterpreted and re-applied time and again for many centuries.

Given my background, my understanding of the post-resurrection narratives is framed by a source criticism. The first accounts are those of Paul, on the road to Damascus, and then Mark, Matthew, Luke-Acts and John. When we put them in this order we see a development in the direction of physical resurrection and physical specifics. If we saw a development in the opposite direction, we could say, at first the church understood the physical resurrection, and over time they perceived there was more. For example, the Gospel of John with its doctrine of the Word can be understood as the results of reflection on the message of the other Gospels. But when physical details appear in a late record, such as those of Luke 24, we have to ask, where was the knowledge of these things in the previous generations? Did it even happen? is a legitimate question, to which we can have no answer. What can be salvaged from this after the source-critical demolition ball has done its work, is the philosophical reflection that, in any case, the primary significance of the text for us today is the message that the story is intended to convey, and not its historicity.

 

[Servant19]

I and others here understand a lot more than you might want us to. You have yet to prove that your guy’s anything but a nice, regular Joe that’s written some nice things, and all the quotes you’ve provided so far have offered absolutely zip in the way of that proof.

We’re still waiting.

Proofs? Heres some simple answers:

1. He never had any schooling yet expounded more eloquent verses than the lead cleric of the country.
2. I know you like miracles, He did plenty (Baha’is don’t care about those however)
3. Thousands upon thousands of people have been willing to die in His name rather than recant their Faith. (even today)
4. One verse from His Writings can bring together the letters B and E and it shall BE.
5. His Revelation has brought about the nucleus for the unification of the human race.
6. He has fulfilled every prophecy from every religion starting from the indigenous spiritual traditions, through to Buddhism, Hinduism, Zoroastrianism, Judaism, Christianity and Islam.

Thats just a few from the top of my head.
Hope that answers your question

 

[Lochias]

Okay, let’s break this down, then…

As much as you enjoy one sentence answers,

Misdirection. I said nothing about wanting answers in one sentence.

Baha’is actually prefer to provide a good context to the answer to any questions.

Sometimes. “Good” does not equal “extraneous filler”, however, which is what a lot of your answers devolve into.

Providing quotes ensures that the correct perspective is given so that human interpretations cannot “pollute” the answer

Misdirection. Most quotes you give are huge, and not to the point pertaining to the question you’re attempting to answer.

(if thats not too flowery a concept )

Misdirection. Insult to my intelligence.

Many Catholics prefer to answer in this manner too.

You should use our example, then.

If you’ve read all the Baha’i threads, then I’m sure you would’ve come across a lovely Catholic poster by the name of Vouthon. Do you have the same qualms with him too? Does he make you upset?

Misdirection. I’m not talking about other posters, or else I’d have mentioned them.

Why do you get so easily upset Lochias?

Misdirection. Off-topic, somewhat snide personal question.

So, your response could have been easily reduced to:

“Well, we prefer to provide context in much the same way as Catholics do. Make sense?”

See? Not hard at all.

 

[Servant19]

Okay, let’s break this down, then…

Misdirection. I said nothing about wanting answers in one sentence.

Sometimes. “Good” does not equal “extraneous filler”, however, which is what a lot of your answers devolve into.

Misdirection. Most quotes you give are huge, and not to the point pertaining to the question you’re attempting to answer.

Misdirection. Insult to my intelligence.

You should use our example, then.

Misdirection. I’m not talking about other posters, or else I’d have mentioned them.

Misdirection. Off-topic, somewhat snide personal question.

So, your response could have been easily reduced to:

“Well, we prefer to provide context in much the same way as Catholics do. Make sense?”

See? Not hard at all.

Wow, next time I’ll just pm you my posts and you can chisel away at them and make them into the 2 sentence post you just summarized my post into. Thanks!

(So you like 2 sentence responses it seems, I’ll try my best, otherwise expect a pm )

Either way it’s coming across as if you’re trying to misdirect from the current topic of the thread

 

[SteveVH]

We need it now because human consciousness has developed to be globally embracing. 2000 years ago, a Jew in Judea had no idea what an Australian Aboriginal was, never mind embrace him as his equal. In fact, Jews struggled to embrace Gentiles full stop. The ability to embrace one’s neighbour was all that was required at the time in the steady step towards global solidarity, which is what we can embrace today.

And yet it is self evident that the world is not embracing this concept, but rather going in the opposite direction.

But what has changed is the environment in which God’s Spirit finds itself today. How can we as human beings “harness” this eternal spiritual vibrancy that is released when God reveals Himself to man, and apply it to the current condition of society. Works means nothing if it doesn’t provide some benefit. You can’t go into a sweet shop and offer some sweets, it means nothing. What’s the point in selling a few sweets to a sweet manufacturer? At the same time, what’s the point in being the greatest sweet manufacturer when the entire governing system of the country is “anti-sweets”?

And so God is dependent upon man in order to reveal his plan?

Extrapolating from this, what is the point in being the most just, loving and humble person when the entire system and social structure in which you reside in reflects injustice, hatred, and pride?

To be a light in the darkness. That is the point. We are not called to be successful. We are called to be faithful even if everyone around us is unfaithful.

The social structures of society are rotten from the very inside, they are crumbling at the seams. The works of today reflect the bringing about of a new social order. Being engaged in such works, as an individual, brings individual salvation, AS WELL AS collective salvation. This is the difference. Baha’is works involves changing the very structure of society, with all the attributes of God at its very core.

And so we save ourselves by our good works, is that what you are saying? Where does the saving sacrifice of Christ fit into all of this? And, as I have said before, it has been roughly 150 years since Baha’u’llah’s death. Where is all of this wonderful change in the structure of society? There is zero evidence that this is true. And yes, I have read all of the evidence you have provided.

 

[doormouse73]

God is a spirit doormouse, as verified in the New Teatament. When communing and uniting ourselves with Him, we utilize our spiritual aspects and have no need for the flesh.

Only the human spirit attains eternal life, that which is flesh is flesh, and decomposes just like all other flesh. The spirit is made of another, ethereal, eternal substance. It does not rely on anything physical or fleshy.

i see,so the bahai who posted not so long ago who said that they miss their next of kin,in body,wishes that they were there…body as Well.

this is really interesting indeed…

you see we have God in the Father,the son (Jesus) and the HOLY Spirit…

God comes to us in every way possible so he is with us.BODY and all.

its a crying shame that YOUR MAN cant do that,i wonder why, if God can do this for us but not for his supposedly next in line the bab…

 

[eddie_too]

the bible says that a thousand years is as a day to the Lord.

so, it makes more sense to interpret the thousand year reference by the bahai as being only metaphorical and what is really meant is a single day, or not.

i am not so brazen and arrogant, such as have appeared so many of the bahai who post to this thread, as to suggest that i know the teachings of the bahai better they themselves know them.

sadly, the bahai have no problem telling christians that what they received from Christ and the apostles is all wrong.

bahai is a FALSE religion. it bears more resemblance to the cults of jim jones or david koresh than it resembles christianity.

it takes glaring blindness not to see the fallacies taught by bahaullah.

what foolishness is it for a human being to want to exist without his or her body?

what foolishness is it to deny the teachings of the apostles regarding what Jesus taught them?

what foolishness is it to deny that the apostles knew what they meant when they wrote the new testament?

what foolishness is it to call a teaching that encourages a one world government religious when it obviously requires political activity to achieve?

what foolishness is it to deny the God-man and proclaim Him a mere creature?

what foolishness is it to believe that a finite human creature has the means to atone for his or her sins against an infinite and perfect being?