Reload this Page BAHA'I thread IV - feel free to ask of Baha'i any questions

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Why thank you Arthur, but that very literal description is most certainly a metaphore right? So why can’t I read the 1000 year promise as being a metaphore? No matter how literal the text might indicate? In trying to mock what I admit is my very poor spelling and often times very poor grammar you cannot address the purely arbitrary nature of interpreting a text which lays before you. You will insist beyond all reasonable doubt that Luke must be describing a metaphore, that Jesus Christ did not raise from the dead despite Luke presenting Christ as very physical, not a ghost, eating with his apostles, proving to his aposltes he is real. But with absolute dogmatic certitude every bahai must believe the 1000 year thing is literal. This is a problem for bahai and ignoring it, like you have done with so many of our criticisms doesn’t help you in the end.
About this 1000 year thing. As i humbly understand it, it means 1000 literal years. i think there is even another quote in the Writings where either Bahá’u’lláh or His Son stated that each of these years is composed of 365 days.

Previously i saw another post where it helped me to understand when a quote might be more metaphorical than literal: when the literal goes against common sense and/or science. Thankfully we are taught in the Bahá’í Faith that we need to use our powers of reasoning and of science and that God does not require us to believe things which make no sense.

And finally, i think we as believers in the One, the Un-Created Creator of all, that “He doeth whatsoever He willeth and ordaineth that which He pleaseth.” So that it is even possible that even though He has instructed Bahá’u’lláh, the Blessed Beauty to reveal this item about the 1000 years, that in less than 1000 years He might see fit to change His mind and send another Manifestation. Who knows what tests and challenges He might be inclined to send that generation to test them so that the truly-God seeking might be distinguished from the merely outward-appearance followers. Pretty cool, eh? It’s not as easy as it looks i suspect - lol.

Have a great afternoon! 🙂
 
i see,so the bahai who posted not so long ago who said that they miss their next of kin,in body,wishes that they were there…body as Well.
Thankyou for your considerate thoughts doormouse.

Anyone who misses their wife, after they have passed away, only misses them because the wife is in the spiritual realm and the husband resides in the physical realm. The reunion and same overwhelming loving emotion returns when the husband dies and enters the spiritual realm 🙂 there is no need for a body when there is love.

Love is not a PHYSICAL attribute of the body, it is a SPIRITUAL attribute of the soul. It is expressed physically sometimes in a hug, a kiss or a lovers embrace, but none of those physical expressions are a requirement for expressing love. When I just think of my wife, my heart bulges and I get tingles (only on tuesdays mind you lol…just joking)

The human mind and the human soul are intimately connected. The human mind is not part of the physical brain. Science is increasingly coming to this realisation now…
God comes to us in every way possible so he is with us.BODY and all.
This sounds very much like pantheism doormouse. God is not found in everything, only His attributes are found in this physical realm…
its a crying shame that YOUR MAN cant do that,i wonder why, if God can do this for us but not for his supposedly next in line the bab…
Baha’u’llah has cut through all the symbolic representations and got to the very root and core of what is truly divine, and what is a symbolic representation of the divine. He provides us with all the manna that we can possibly nourish ourselves with …and much much more 🙂
 
Proofs? Heres some simple answers:
  1. He never had any schooling yet expounded more eloquent verses than the lead cleric of the country.
Formal schooling isn’t needed to write eloquently, sorry. Abe Lincoln’s a pretty good example. Is he God?
  1. I know you like miracles, He did plenty (Baha’is don’t care about those however)
Prove that those “miracles” occurred, please. Just saying that they happened doesn’t prove squat. We already know that you Bahai have fibbed about one of the “miracles” that supposedly occurred. Also, please prove that these miracles are of God and not of the devil (which the Church is always careful to investigate). Good luck!
  1. Thousands upon thousands of people have been willing to die in His name rather than recant their Faith. (even today)
Thousands of Muslims are willing to die in hate and sacrifice others in the doing for their faith, too. That doesn’t stand on its own.
  1. One verse from His Writings can bring together the letters B and E and it shall BE.
Non-sequitor claptrap.
  1. His Revelation has brought about the nucleus for the unification of the human race.
Then the Bohama’s been lazy on the job. I’ve never seen a world so torn.
  1. He has fulfilled every prophecy from every religion starting from the indigenous spiritual traditions, through to Buddhism, Hinduism, Zoroastrianism, Judaism, Christianity and Islam.
…no, no he hasn’t. Not even close. Not even a little. Prove them all. Every last one, in detail.

Begin.
Thats just a few from the top of my head.
Hope that answers your question 🙂
No, that post was mostly garbage and outright lies. Try again.
 
…no, no he hasn’t. Not even close. Not even a little. Prove them all. Every last one, in detail.

Begin.
Lochias,

. If you are seriously interested in learning of the prophecies fulfilled by the coming of the Bab and Baha’u’llah, I would urge you to do an unbiased study.
.
. Several short chapters from Some Answered Questions will begin to acquaint you with some evidence and understanding, if you so choose:

reference.bahai.org/en/t/ab/SAQ/

Further comprehensive research by Hushidar Motlagh can be found online or in a compilation of 25 years work entitled “I Shall Come Again”
 
Lochias,

. If you are seriously interested in learning of the prophecies fulfilled by the coming of the Bab and Baha’u’llah, I would urge you to do an unbiased study.
.
. Several short chapters from Some Answered Questions will begin to acquaint you with some evidence and understanding, if you so choose:

reference.bahai.org/en/t/ab/SAQ/

Further comprehensive research by Hushidar Motlagh can be found online or in a compilation of 25 years work entitled “I Shall Come Again”
Oh, no no no. You’re the one with something to prove, so do your homework. Highlight what you’re wanting to get across, post it here for all to see, and I’ll cross-reference from there. Let’s see it.
 
Formal schooling isn’t needed to write eloquently, sorry. Abe Lincoln’s a pretty good example. Is he God?

Prove that those “miracles” occurred, please. Just saying that they happened doesn’t prove squat. We already know that you Bahai have fibbed about one of the “miracles” that supposedly occurred. Also, please prove that these miracles are of God and not of the devil (which the Church is always careful to investigate). Good luck!

Thousands of Muslims are willing to die in hate and sacrifice others in the doing for their faith, too. That doesn’t stand on its own.

Non-sequitor claptrap.

Then the Bohama’s been lazy on the job. I’ve never seen a world so torn.

…no, no he hasn’t. Not even close. Not even a little. Prove them all. Every last one, in detail.

Begin.

No, that post was mostly garbage and outright lies. Try again.
Right back atcha for Jesus, my man 🙂

By your standards for needing evidence, God doesn’t even exist LOL 👍 :eek:

I haven’t seen ONE, NOT ONE CASE of a Muslim being forced to recant his Faith or be put to the sword…are you thinking clearly??
 
Lochias,

. If you are seriously interested in learning of the prophecies fulfilled by the coming of the Bab and Baha’u’llah, I would urge you to do an unbiased study.
.
. Several short chapters from Some Answered Questions will begin to acquaint you with some evidence and understanding, if you so choose:

reference.bahai.org/en/t/ab/SAQ/

Further comprehensive research by Hushidar Motlagh can be found online or in a compilation of 25 years work entitled “I Shall Come Again”
Dale, I must advise you that Lochias only wants proof of Baha’u’llah’s Divinity in 2 sentences max…

Links to scholarly articles are not going to even be clicked.

Do you have 2 sentences?
 
Ignation wrote:

This still leaves you with the problem that I can use a similar explanation here, about the spiritual reality of the teachings of mirza Hussain as to the number of years meaning a thousand. in fact a thousand years to God is as a day right? Therefore there might have been a manifestation immediately after, or maybe it is just symbolic language to describe a mystical reality.

Actually Ignation you’re pretty close and probably don’t realize it! Someone already beat you to the"punch"!

Here is the interpretation of Abdul-Baha the authorized interpreter of the Writings of Baha’u’llah:
  1. *O servant of God! We have noted what thou didst write to Jinab-i-Ibn-Abhar, and thy question regarding the verse:
‘Whoso layeth claim to a Revelation direct from God, ere the expiration of a full thousand years, such a man is assuredly a lying impostor.’

The meaning of this is that any individual who, before the expiry of a full thousand years – years known and clearly established by common usage and requiring no interpretation – should lay claim to a Revelation direct from God, even though he should reveal certain signs, that man is assuredly false and an impostor.

This is not a reference to the Universal Manifestation, for it is clearly set forth in the Holy Writings that centuries, nay thousands of years, must pass on to completion, before a Manifestation like unto this Manifestation shall appear again.

It is possible, however, that after the completion of a full thousand years, certain Holy Beings will be empowered to deliver a Revelation: this, however, will not be through a Universal Manifestation.

Wherefore every day of the cycle of the Blessed Beauty is in reality equal to one year, and every year of it is equal to a thousand years.

Consider, for example, the sun: its transit from one zodiacal sign to the next occurreth within a short period of time, yet only after a long period doth it attain the plenitude of its resplendency, its heat and glory, in the sign of Leo. It must first complete one full revolution through the other constellations before it will enter the sign of Leo again, to blaze out in its full splendour. In its other stations, it revealeth not the fullness of its heat and light.

The substance is, that prior to the completion of a thousand years, no individual may presume to breathe a word. All must consider themselves to be of the order of subjects, submissive and obedient to the commandments of God and the laws of the House of Justice. Should any deviate by so much as a needle’s point from the decrees of the Universal House of Justice, or falter in his compliance therewith, then is he of the outcast and rejected.

As to the cycle of the Blessed Beauty – the times of the Greatest Name – this is not limited to a thousand or two thousand years…

When it is said that the period of a thousand years beginneth with the Manifestation of the Blessed Beauty and every day thereof is a thousand years, the intent is a reference to the cycle of the Blessed Beauty, which in this context will extend over many ages into the unborn reaches of time.*

~ Abdu’l-Baha, Selections from the Writings of Abdu’l-Baha, p. 67

The universal cycle of the Blessed Beauty is given as 500,000 years:

BAHA’I CYCLE, CYCLE OF FULFILLMENT - to last 500,000 years:
Code:
1. The Bab
  1. Bahá’u’lláh - Universal Manifestation for this Universal Cycle a. Heroic, Primitive, or Apostolic Age - 1844-1921 (or 1932 - the death of Bahiyyih Khanum) i. Ministry of the Bab (1844-53)
ii. Ministry of Bahá’u’lláh (1853-92)

iii. Ministry of `Abdu’l-Bahá (1892-1921) b. Formative, Transitional, or Iron Age - 1921
  • i. First Epoch (1921-44/46) - Erection of the Administrative Order
ii. Second Epoch (1946-63) - spread of the Faith beyond the confines of the Western Hemisphere

iii. Third Epoch (1963-86) - emergence of the Faith from obscurity and initiation of social and economic development plans

iv. Fourth Epoch (1986- ) - national communities taking on the responsibility for their own development

v. Successive further Epochs c. Golden Age

Successive Epochs leading to the Most Great Peace 3. Further Manifestations - under the shadow of Bahá’u’lláh END OF PRESENT UNIVERSAL CYCLE

bahai-library.com/momen_encyclopedia_ages_cycles

So now we have a Baha’i perspective on our history as well as a perspective on our future… We are generally future oriented in the Faith.

😉
 
Anyone wishing to interpret Bahaullahs Verses in a different manner than is commonly seen are entitled to do so.

Ignatian, go ahead, give us your symbolic meaning of the thousand year verse…

What happens after a single day after Bahaullah revealed His Mission?
How does your symbolic interpretation of this reflect on the 500,000 year Bahai Cycle?
Oh i agree, I have no right to interpret these texts under any actual standard of interpretation, context of the teaching, history, language and etc. But what I am doing is the bahai standard of interpretation, allegorizing anything and finding any support in any document to establish my spiritual interpretation. When you insist it must be literal, how are you any different from the Christians who have the gospels and the new testament and insist that these are literal documents for the most part? Thats been our tradition, yet bahai tell us we’ve had it wrong since the begining! Only the bahai have the true understanding of our texts which have been read in their original language for two thousand years and have been the mainstay doctrines of Christianity. Another point I might add is that manifestations are bound by the amount of years, look at Jesus and Budha or Abraham and Moses who both came about four hundred years with each other. My point in this discussion is to show the utterly arbitrary nature of bahai interpretation, especially of the gospels. Whenever something you don’t like is described in the gospels, it suddenly becomes a hullucination on the part of the apostles, it suddenly becomes an event which never happened. Two can play at that game and if bahai insist on this methedology for the gospels they ought be consistent with their own. Or do you think that no one after the bahai, perhaps in a thousand years won’t criticise you for your literal interpretation? There is no garuntee you have any understanding of your own texts as the history of the religions you believe are from God shows before you.
 
Oh, no no no. You’re the one with something to prove, so do your homework. Highlight what you’re wanting to get across, post it here for all to see, and I’ll cross-reference from there. Let’s see it.
Lochias,
. I have posted several times on the most significant time prophecies and several place prophecies. I hesitate to keep reposting the same material, but will honor your request, hoping that I am not offending the other guests by repeating the same.

. . You had specific questions about the BIBLE mentioning Baha’u’llah. In English this Title is “The Glory of God” The Bab, in English, means “The Gate”

. Ezekial 43: "Then the man brought me to the gate facing east, 2 and I saw the glory of the God (Baha’u’llah) of Israel coming from the east. His voice was like the roar of rushing waters, and the land was radiant with his glory. 3 The vision I saw was like the vision I had seen when he[a] came to destroy the city and like the visions I had seen by the Kebar River, and I fell facedown. 4 The glory of the Lord (Baha’u’llah) entered the temple through the gate facing east. 5 Then the Spirit lifted me up and brought me into the inner court, and the glory of the Lord filled the temple.

. Neh. 3:29 “…the Gate that looketh toward the east: And the glory of the Lord (Baha’u’llah) came into the house by the way of the Gate (The Bab) whose prospect is toward the east.”

. “And it came to pass, when the priests came out of the holy place, that the cloud filled the house of the Lord, so that the priests could not continue ministering because of the cloud; for the glory of the Lord (Baha’u’llah) filled the house of the Lord”. I Kings 8:10-11

… “For the Son of man shall come in the Glory of his Father (Baha’u’llah) with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works” Matt 16:27

. "Now when they heard this, they were cut to the quick, and they began gnashing their teeth at him. But being full of the Holy Spirit, he gazed intently into heaven and saw the Glory of God (Baha’u’llah) and Jesus standing at the right hand of God; and he said, “Behold, I see the heavens opened up and the Son of Man standing at the right hand of God.”… Acts 7:54…

Habakuk 2:14 “For the earth will be filled with the knowledge of the Glory of the Lord (Baha’u’llah) as the waters cover the sea.”

Baha’is believe that certain references to God’s Glory, or “the Glory of God”, are actual references to the coming of Baha’u’llah, which translates into English as “The Glory of God”, or “The Glory of the Lord”, or “The Glory of the Father”, (Baha means Glory, Light, and Splendor). The most common translation would be the first, Glory of God ( in Arabic is the word for God is Allah).

It should be pointed out that millions of Arabic speaking Christians refer to God as Allah, and worship Allah (God in their language). So that should not be a barrier, nor any fear or prejudice attached to it, as they also refer to Jesus as the Son of Allah.

Micah 7:12 “In that day He shall come to thee even from Assyria and from the fortified cities and from the fortress even to the river and from sea to sea and from mountain to mountain”

These place prophecies indicate the coming from Assyria, as Baha’u’llah, from the fort city of Constantinople to Akka, to the river Namayn, and from the Black Sea to the Mediterranean Sea, from the mountains of Sulaymaniyeh in Kurdistan to Mt Carmel.
All of this was as a Prisoner, not by His own will did He fulfill these prophecies and numerous others.

Jesus said, “As the lightening cometh out of the east and goes to the west, so shall be the coming of the Son of Man” This was fulfilled by Baha’u’llah’s banishment from ancient Elam or Persia from the east, to the west arriving in Palestine in 1868, still a Prisoner of the Ottoman Turks.

Jeremiah said: "The Lord shall set His Throne in Elam (SW Persia), where the Bab declared His Mission. Baha’u’llah as well came from Persia. Daniel’s great vision was in Elam foretelling both the coming of the Bab and Baha’u’llah in the exact years as recorded in the Book of Daniel, in 1260 AH, which is 1844 AD, and Baha’u’llah in 1280 AH, which is 1863 AD. These are the years in which the Bab declared His Mission in 1844 (1260) and Baha’u’llah in 1863 (1280), which declaration also fulfilled Daniel’s vision of 1290 days (years) after the public declaration of Muhammad in 613, ten lunar years before the Hijra which began the Muslim calendar in 622 AD. 1260 lunar years later was 1844, a date methodically arrived at by William Miller and countless other Bible scholars in the early 1800s, beginning the entire worldwide Adventist Movement which still exists today. As they failed to see Jesus come in the literal sky, they figured He wasn’t ready. They failed to look at what happened in Elam (SW Persia) in 1844 AD, or 1260 AH, where these prophecies unfolded.

continued next post…
 
Well, if you believe in this collective “social salvation”, then I guess I’m already saved through your being a Bahai. And THAT’S why I don’t have to be one, nor believe that Bahaullah is divine.

And that’s great for me. That way, I get to continue to have the One Flesh Union with Christ in the Eucharist as well as enjoy this collective “social salvation”.
…except that Baha’u’llah (and Jesus) has taught that personal salvation is a faith AND deeds kinda thing.

For personal salvation today, one must be engaged in the works that contribute towards “societal salvation”
 
…except that Baha’u’llah (and Jesus) has taught that personal salvation is a faith AND deeds kinda thing.

For personal salvation today, one must be engaged in the works that contribute towards “societal salvation”
Have you read the new testament? Salvation comes from Christ jesus and faith and grace through him. Why should we put our stock in worldly affairs? Salvation doesn’t come from obeying the law, it comes from the grace of Jesus Christ.
 
Oh, no no no. You’re the one with something to prove, so do your homework. Highlight what you’re wanting to get across, post it here for all to see, and I’ll cross-reference from there. Let’s see it.
Prophecies of the coming of Baha’u’llah continued:

Micah 7:15 “According to the days of thy coming out of the land of Egypt (which was 40 years) will I show unto him marvelous things.”

. This duration of the Israelites was forty years. Baha’u’llah was imprisoned first in 1852 and was imprisoned and exiled for 40 years until His death in 1892. His Revelation from God first occurred in the Siyah Chal, the Black Pit of Tehran, in 1852, and lasted exactly 40 years.

. Note how God prophesied to Noah that “I shall make it rain for 40 days and 40 nights”, that is, with “each day for a year in prophecy”, an allusion to 40 years of constant non-stop Revelation of Baha’u’llah.

. Further note the repetition of 40 years in the wilderness of Moses, Jesus fasting for 40 days forty days and forty nights, the forty days of appearances after His crucifixion, and while it is unimportant from your perspective, the Revelations of Muhammad began at the age of 40, beginning in the year 610 AD. This will become significant as well, for Muhammad’s cycle lasted 1260 years, ending in 1844, which is 2300 days (years) prophesied by Daniel to begin with the rebuilding of Jerusalem under Artaxerxes in the year 457 BC, as mentioned before.

. In Revelation the various time prophecies of 3 1/2 days corresponds to Daniel’s 3 1/2 “times”. A time was 360 days (years in prophecy), thus 3 1/2 X 360 = 1260. Also, in Revelation is mentioned 42 months, times 30 days per month = 1260.
. So for the students of “time prophecies” who reckon 1844 AD as the fulfillment of the 3 1/2 times from Daniel, the year 1260 AH of the Muslim calendar being exactly the same year, there is either one helluva coincidence going on, or Islam must be understood as part of the picture.

. With this being said, further references in Revelation about “the Beast” begin to apply to the Ummayyads and the Caliphate of Islam, who usurped the True Message and Religion of Islam from its intended Successor appointed by Muhammad, that being Ali. These were actually the Meccan Idolators who feigned allegiance to Muhammad to regain a foothold after He came and destroyed their hundreds of Idols and their corrupted perversion of the Ka’aba first established by Abraham…

. Note: Keep in mind the prophecies of Abraham regarding he descendants of Ishmael, son of Hagar, “I will also make a nation of the descendants of Hagar’s son”, in Arabia, i.e. those who became the followers of Muhammad. So both Muslims and Jews are prophesied in Genesis, to be part of the last days, and of course we know the Jews have already returned to Israel, which process began with the Edict of toleration (or submission) signed on March 23, 1844, exactly 2300 years after Artaxerxes issued the decree to rebuild Jerusalem… hmmmm

. Now consider also the words of Jesus: “But of that day and that hour knoweth no man. No, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father.”

. One could look at this verse and understand it to mean that, like Daniel, the “hour” of the 2nd coming was likewise “sealed” to Jesus, for He plainly, very Plainly here, says so.

. I cannot discard this verse. I must go to the verse where He says, “Look to Daniel, the prophet”, which was given in answer to the question:

. “When shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?” Matthew 24:3

. I have “not” failed to see that the Light came into the world when Jesus appeared. I have not. I recognize that Light. That same Light, which “He” said would come again into the world “has” come, exactly as he said it would, in fulfillment of the prophecies of Daniel, which pointed both to Christ the Messiah being “cut off”, or crucified, in 34 AD, exactly 70 weeks (of years), or 490 years after the Decree to rebuild Jerusalem, which occurred in 457 BC under Artaxerxes, which began also the 2300 days (years) prophecy, which was fulfilled in 1844 AD, with the coming of the Bab.

. Jesus also said of that day “Until Jerusalem would be trampled underfoot by the Gentiles” which was given as 42 months X 30 = 1260 AH - 1844

. Hence, the same prophecies which pointed to the coming of Jesus pointed to the coming of the Bab, as well as Baha’u’llah, as foretold by Daniel the prophet, whom Jesus said to refer to.

. Briefly, time (360) times (720) and a half (180) equals 1260 years. Daniel also refers to 1280, 1290, and 1335. The Book of Revelation also refers to 3 1/2 days (years of 360 X 3/12 equals 1260) Also 42 months X 30 days equals 1260.

. The year 1260 AH “is” the year 1844 AD, which is 2300 years after 457 BC. As there was no year zero: 456 + 1844 = 2300.

. The Bab declared His Mission in 1844 AD, or 1260 AH, in “Elam”, where Daniel had his vision, and where Jeremiah said the Lord would appear to set “His Throne”, in Elam.

. Baha’u’llah declared His Mission in 1863 AD, which was 1280 AH, fulfilling Daniel’s prophecy, which Jesus said to refer to about His coming.

. 1280 AH is also 1290 years after the Revelation was first received by Muhammad.

. It all fits. Hence, the Light “reappeared”, right on schedule. The same schedule that foretold Its first appearance. There is no contradiction. This must be considered.

. Do want more prophecies? There are many more. From many Holy traditions. Please let me know. Thank you. Please forgive some redundancy at this point. Kind of tired. Its after midnight here.

God bless, Lochias
 
Oh i agree, I have no right to interpret these texts under any actual standard of interpretation, context of the teaching, history, language and etc.
Yes you do, absolutely you do. No need for context, it is written in English and it is written with the clarity that provides an obvious meaning. No-one can remove that right from you to provide an understanding. The beauty of the Baha’i Revelation is that it is incredibly vast. More often than not, when a verse has a slightly obscure meaning, there are other, often several other. verses which will clarify things more…as is the case with the 1000 year verse, which has been further clarified by the verse arthra posted. This in itslef is one of the proofs of Baha’u’llah’s Revelation, namely that there is very little room for disputation, the entire Revelation is founded upon creating unity on earth.
But what I am doing is the bahai standard of interpretation, allegorizing anything and finding any support in any document to establish my spiritual interpretation.
No my friend, the Baha’i standard of interpretation is shared by those who have delved deeply into the historical context of the Biblical verses, the fact that some verses are historically factual and some verses are spiritually factual, yet historically unsubstantiated. Baha’u’llah did not make it up as He was going along, He was there when Jesus was crucified, and He was there beyond the crucifixion too.
When you insist it must be literal, how are you any different from the Christians who have the gospels and the new testament and insist that these are literal documents for the most part?
When it is specifically outlined that this verse is to be taken literally, then thats what we do. Its called obedience to God. I really don’t know how a mind cannot understand this concept. Its almost unfathomable…
Thats been our tradition, yet bahai tell us we’ve had it wrong since the begining!
Nope, yet again, you are placing words into our mouths. Baha’is say you had it very much right at the beginning. As a theological professor once told me:

"How about: some wise people of old gave us a story to contemplate, and some yahoos came along and took the story and said it was supposed to be historical fact, and then some powerful yahoos came along and made the story dogmatic, and then some lesser yahoos believed the powerful yahoos, and…well…here we are in yahoo land, forgetting entirely the message that the wise people of old gave to us many, many centuries ago."
Only the bahai have the true understanding of our texts which have been read in their original language for two thousand years and have been the mainstay doctrines of Christianity. Another point I might add is that manifestations are bound by the amount of years, look at Jesus and Budha or Abraham and Moses who both came about four hundred years with each other. My point in this discussion is to show the utterly arbitrary nature of bahai interpretation, especially of the gospels. Whenever something you don’t like is described in the gospels, it suddenly becomes a hullucination on the part of the apostles, it suddenly becomes an event which never happened.
Nope, yet again, no Baha’i has said that it was all a hallucination. The gospel writers were not on LSD or Ice, my man, nor were they on anything else. They were incredibly wise men, who truly recognized the Majestic Beauty of Jesus and wrote the gospels to relay the spiritual narrative which would enable as many people as possible to embrace this All-Embracing outpouring of grace which had been shed upon mankind through Jesus’ Ministry
Two can play at that game and if bahai insist on this methedology for the gospels they ought be consistent with their own. Or do you think that no one after the bahai, perhaps in a thousand years won’t criticise you for your literal interpretation? There is no garuntee you have any understanding of your own texts as the history of the religions you believe are from God shows before you.
You are very welcome to tango and play this so called “game”, except the reality is this, we are not playing any sort of game.

God plays no games, man plays the games, just like the Pharisees and Sanhedrin. At the end of the day, God judges you on your sincerity. Baha’is are being sincere to the best of their capacity 🙂
 
Have you read the new testament? Salvation comes from Christ jesus and faith and grace through him. Why should we put our stock in worldly affairs? Salvation doesn’t come from obeying the law, it comes from the grace of Jesus Christ.
You should put your stock in worldly affairs,Ignatian… unless you wish to be labelled a “gnostic” 😉
 
Oh, no no no. You’re the one with something to prove, so do your homework. Highlight what you’re wanting to get across, post it here for all to see, and I’ll cross-reference from there. Let’s see it.
Lochias,
. As I am really tired, but with to conform to your request, I will post a long explanation on COMMENTARY ON THE TWELFTH CHAPTER OF THE REVELATION OF ST. JOHN. "

We have before explained that what is most frequently meant by the Holy City, the Jerusalem of God, which is mentioned in the Holy Book, is the Law of God. It is compared sometimes to a bride, and sometimes to Jerusalem, and again to the new heaven and earth. So in chapter 21, verses 1, 2 and 3 of the Revelation of St. John, it is said: “And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea. And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and He will dwell with them, and they shall be His people, and God Himself shall be with them, and be their God.”

Notice how clear and evident it is that the first heaven and earth signify the former Law. For it is said that the first heaven and earth have passed away and there is no more sea—that is to say, that the earth is the place of judgment, and on this earth of judgment there is no sea, meaning that the teachings and the Law of God will entirely spread over the earth, and all men will enter the Cause of God, and the earth will be completely inhabited by believers; therefore, there will be no more sea, for the dwelling place and abode of man is the dry land. In other words, at that epoch the field of that Law will become the pleasure-ground of man. Such earth is solid; the feet do not slip upon it.

The Law of God is also described as the Holy City, the New Jerusalem. It is evident that the New Jerusalem which descends from heaven is not a city of stone, mortar, bricks, earth and wood. It is the Law of God which descends from heaven and is called new, for it is clear that the Jerusalem which is of stone and earth does not descend from heaven, and that it is not renewed; but that which is renewed is the Law of God.

The Law of God is also compared to an adorned bride who appears with most beautiful ornaments, as it has been said in chapter 21 of the Revelation of St. John: “And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.” 1 And in chapter 12, verse 1, it is said: “And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars.”

This woman is that bride, the Law of God that descended upon Muḥammad. The sun with which she was clothed, and the moon which was under her feet, are the two nations which are under the shadow of that Law, the Persian and Ottoman kingdoms; for the emblem of Persia is the sun, and that of the Ottoman Empire is the crescent moon. Thus the sun and moon are the emblems of two kingdoms which are under the power of the Law of God. Afterward it is said: “upon her head is a crown of twelve stars.” These twelve stars are the twelve Imáms, who were the promoters of the Law of Muḥammad and the educators of the people, shining like stars in the heaven of guidance.

Then it is said in the second verse: “and she being with child cried,” meaning that this Law fell into the greatest difficulties and endured great troubles and afflictions until a perfect offspring was produced—that is, the coming Manifestation, the Promised One, Who is the perfect offspring, and Who was reared in the bosom of this Law, which is as its mother. The child Who is referred to is the Báb, the Primal Point, Who was in truth born from the Law of Muḥammad—that is to say, the Holy Reality, Who is the child and outcome of the Law of God, His mother, and Who is promised by that religion, finds a reality in the kingdom of that Law; but because of the despotism of the dragon the child was carried up to God. After twelve hundred and sixty days the dragon was destroyed, and the child of the Law of God, the Promised One, became manifest.

Verses 3 and 4. “And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads. And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth.” 2 These signs are an allusion to the dynasty of the Umayyads who dominated the Muḥammadan religion. Seven heads and seven crowns mean seven countries and dominions over which the Umayyads had power: they were the Roman dominion around Damascus; and the Persian, Arabian and Egyptian dominions, together with the dominion of Africa—that is to say, Tunis, Morocco and Algeria; the dominion of Andalusia, which is now Spain; and the dominion of the Turks of Transoxania. The Umayyads had power over these countries. The ten horns mean the names of the Umayyad rulers—that is, without repetition, there were ten names of rulers, meaning ten names of commanders and chiefs—the first is Abú Súfyán and the last Marván—but several of them bear the same name. So there are two Muáviyá, three Yazíd, two Valíd, and two Marván; but if the names were counted without repetition there would be ten. The Umayyads, of whom the first was Abú Súfyán, Amír of Mecca and chief of the dynasty of the Umayyads, and the last was Marván, destroyed the third part of the holy and saintly people of the lineage of Muḥammad who were like the stars of heaven.

continue…
 
Oh, no no no. You’re the one with something to prove, so do your homework. Highlight what you’re wanting to get across, post it here for all to see, and I’ll cross-reference from there. Let’s see it.
Continued Commentary

Verse 4. “And the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour the child as soon as it was born.” 3 As we have before explained, this woman is the Law of God. The dragon was standing near the woman to devour her child, and this child was the promised Manifestation, the offspring of the Law of Muḥammad. The Umayyads were always waiting to get possession of the Promised One, Who was to come from the line of Muḥammad, to destroy and annihilate Him; for they much feared the appearance of the promised Manifestation, and they sought to kill any of Muḥammad’s descendants who might be highly esteemed.

Verse 5. “And she brought forth a man child, Who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron.” This great son is the promised Manifestation Who was born of the Law of God and reared in the bosom of the divine teachings. The iron rod is a symbol of power and might—it is not a sword—and means that with divine power and might He will shepherd all the nations of the earth. This son is the Báb.

Verse 5. “And her child was caught up unto God, and to His throne.” This is a prophecy of the Báb, Who ascended to the heavenly realm, to the Throne of God, and to the center of His Kingdom. Consider how all this corresponds to what happened.
Verse 6. “And the woman fled into the wilderness”—that is to say, the Law of God fled to the wilderness, meaning the vast desert of Ḥijáz, and the Arabian Peninsula.
Verse 6. “Where she had a place prepared of God.” The Arabian Peninsula became the abode and dwelling place, and the center of the Law of God.

Verse 6. “That they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days.” In the terminology of the Holy Book these twelve hundred and sixty days mean the twelve hundred and sixty years that the Law of God was set up in the wilderness of Arabia, the great desert: from it the Promised One has come. After twelve hundred and sixty years that Law will have no more influence, for the fruit of that tree will have appear
ed, and the result will have been produced.

Consider how the prophecies correspond to one another. In the Apocalypse, the appearance of the Promised One is appointed after forty-two months, and Daniel expresses it as three times and a half, which is also forty-two months, which are twelve hundred and sixty days. In another passage of John’s Revelation it is clearly spoken of as twelve hundred and sixty days, and in the Holy Book it is said that each day signifies one year. Nothing could be clearer than this agreement of the prophecies with one another. The Báb appeared in the year 1260 of the Hejira of Muḥammad, which is the beginning of the universal era-reckoning of all Islám.

There are no clearer proofs than this in the Holy Books for any Manifestation. For him who is just, the agreement of the times indicated by the tongues of the Great Ones is the most conclusive proof. There is no other possible explanation of these prophecies. Blessed are the just souls who seek the truth. But failing justice, the people attack, dispute and openly deny the evidence, like the Pharisees who, at the manifestation of Christ, denied with the greatest obstinacy the explanations of Christ and of His disciples. They obscured Christ’s Cause before the ignorant people, saying, “These prophecies are not of Jesus, but of the Promised One Who shall come later, according to the conditions mentioned in the Bible.” Some of these conditions were that He must have a kingdom, be seated on the throne of David, enforce the Law of the Bible, and manifest such justice that the wolf and the lamb shall gather at the same spring.

And thus they prevented the people from knowing Christ.
Note.—In these last conversations ‘Abdu’l-Bahá wishes to reconcile in a new interpretation the apocalyptic prophecies of the Jews, the Christians and the Muslims, rather than to show their supernatural character. On the powers of the Prophets, cf. “The Knowledge of the Divine Manifestations,” p. 157; and “Visions and Communication with Spirits,” p. 251.

from Some Answered Questions by Abdul Baha
 
Thankyou for your considerate thoughts doormouse.

Anyone who misses their wife, after they have passed away, only misses them because the wife is in the spiritual realm and the husband resides in the physical realm. The reunion and same overwhelming loving emotion returns when the husband dies and enters the spiritual realm 🙂 there is no need for a body when there is love.

Love is not a PHYSICAL attribute of the body, it is a SPIRITUAL attribute of the soul. It is expressed physically sometimes in a hug, a kiss or a lovers embrace, but none of those physical expressions are a requirement for expressing love. When I just think of my wife, my heart bulges and I get tingles (only on tuesdays mind you lol…just joking)

The human mind and the human soul are intimately connected. The human mind is not part of the physical brain. Science is increasingly coming to this realisation now…

This sounds very much like pantheism doormouse. God is not found in everything, only His attributes are found in this physical realm…

Baha’u’llah has cut through all the symbolic representations and got to the very root and core of what is truly divine, and what is a symbolic representation of the divine. He provides us with all the manna that we can possibly nourish ourselves with …and much much more 🙂
This sounds very much like pantheism doormouse. God is not found in everything, only His attributes are found in this physical realm…

God is every we’re with me throughJesus Christ . I said what I did meaning that I hold Jesus hand every were. And he holds mine. Not the way that you thought it to be like a Hindu faith etc . Now does bab come to you in body and blood along with spirit, to be with you? That is what I would call holding your hand.

Btw I lost my parents and brother in the space of three years. But they only come to me in memories , and in spirit.
 
This sounds very much like pantheism doormouse. God is not found in everything, only His attributes are found in this physical realm…

God is every we’re with me throughJesus Christ . I said what I did meaning that I hold Jesus hand every were. And he holds mine. Not the way that you thought it to be like a Hindu faith etc . Now does bab come to you in body and blood along with spirit, to be with you? That is what I would call holding your hand.

Btw I lost my parents and brother in the space of three years. But they only come to me in memories , and in spirit.
Mouse,
. Dear friend, my heart goes totally out to you at the loss of your parents and brother. How can I convey my deepest sympathies. I lost a daughter 4 years ago at only 24 years old. How crushed was my heart, and her mother’s heart, and her identical twin sister’s, heart, and the hearts of their younger twin sisters, and all the relatives and countless friends who loved our beloved girl.
. I say this only to support you, my friend, with deepest sympathies coming from my own heart to yours. Truly, there is nothing that compare to such hurt and loss. But just take some comfort and know that the Lord is real, and heaven “IS” real, and they are ok now, and together.
. I have dreams of my dear daughter, sometimes talking with her and holding her hand. They give me much needed strength and I believe somehow they are real. They are with us. This is a heavy burden on one’s soul. God bless you. God bless you!
 
God is every we’re with me throughJesus Christ . I said what I did meaning that I hold Jesus hand every were. And he holds mine. Not the way that you thought it to be like a Hindu faith etc . Now does bab come to you in body and blood along with spirit, to be with you? That is what I would call holding your hand.
Hi doormouse 🙂

God bless you for having Jesus with you wherever you may be. May I ask, when you are in the fields walking, or having dinner with your friends, or at a restaurant, are you partaking in the Eucharistic Sacrament?

In terms of the Baha’i “ways” of partaking in the “union” with God, we have the 19 Day Feast where Baha’is gather together in their communities to partake of the spiritual manna, the recitation of devotions, prayers and the consultation on community affairs. This is how we share in the “Last Supper” as it were 🙂

There is also a very mystical connection we have with God, through Baha’u’llah where we are enabled to commune with Him through our daily prayers, and more intimately through our daily Obligatory Prayers and especially so during our month of Fasting.

The Fasting month especially, I can personally vouch for a state of blissful union with our Beloved, so intimate, and so loving 🙂
Btw I lost my parents and brother in the space of three years. But they only come to me in memories , and in spirit.
I’m sorry to hear of your loss dear friend. I will pray for the progress of their souls. You will assuredly be re-united with them one day, and be assured that their presence is always there, assisting you with so many decisions in your life.

My father passed away 25 years ago, and to this day, I feel he has aided me with so many important decisions, its almost as though he is “working through me”. He was there when I met my eventual wife, he was there when my children were born, and so many other instances, too many to mention here. In all those circumstances, I was assured of his presence through seemingly miraculous circumstances, again, very personal for me, which will remain private if you wouldn’t mind 🙂

God bless you dear friend 🙂
 
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