Reload this Page BAHA'I thread IV - feel free to ask of Baha'i any questions

[fathercome]

I thought that I had already addressed these questions, in some detail, fathercome.

God is pure divine spirit and is therefore invisible. Jesus came to earth and assumed human nature. In his humanness he was visible as he had a body of flesh and blood. Jesus now has a glorified body; a spiritual body, capable of being visible or invisible as he wills. We will also have glorified bodies with the same capabilities.

You are avoiding my question.

Does only Jesus have a body in Heaven and the Father is bodyless?

 

[SteveVH]

Hi Steve,

Thanks for your explanations about the Trinity. Please let me repeat again, I am not proselytizing to you, I am simply trying to explain in my own way (and I am imperfect), the Baha’i ideas as they RELATE TO the Trinity as you have explained it. I am NOT fluent in Trinity, so you helping me is much appreciated!

I will do my best.

You say there is no other God but Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. And there is no other Unseen God. So are you saying that the Unseen God is both Holy Spirit and Father? And what is the God-Substance you referred to that is One thing in Three forms? Isn’t this God-Substance the One God you are referring to? Please again, I am not fluent in Trinity. How is having three Gods not polygamy if there is no such thing as a God-Substance who is Unseen?

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Now to my second point - the Baha’i writings say that Jesus longed for and prayed to Him. You say that you are not aware of Jesus longing for and praying to anyone else. So then what is the relationship between father and son? Did Father create Son (or did Father birth Son) or not? And I know we are getting into the territory of body vs. spirit, but that’s quite okay with me. Are you saying that Father took a part of Himself and put it in body of Jesus, which is the birthing process, and this body of Jesus rose up to Heaven (not sky Heaven but the other Heaven), and that this Body is the Son who is with the Father? Is the Body of the Father the same or separate from the Body of Jesus who is now sitting in Heaven??

This way I can try to explain the Baha’i belief in YOUR terminology.

 

[fathercome]

Glad to see that I am going to lengths to answer your questions to the best of my ability, but my questions bring about the end to the discussion. We need to be honest with each other if we want to communication with one another. Honesty with ourselves is also required if we want to understand and recognize Truth.

 

[SteveVH]

You say there is no other God but Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. And there is no other Unseen God. So are you saying that the Unseen God is both Holy Spirit and Father? And what is the God-Substance you referred to that is One thing in Three forms? Isn’t this God-Substance the One God you are referring to? Please again, I am not fluent in Trinity. How is having three Gods not polygamy if there is no such thing as a God-Substance who is Unseen?

Fathercome, in addition to the fact that we are attempting to explain the unexplainable and understand the incomprehensible, which is enough of a challenge, I think your difficulty in understanding is due to the Baha’i notion of “Manifestations of God” and an unfamiliarity with the philosophical terms “Person” and “Being”.

What we are really speaking of is the difference in natures. Human nature is different than the nature of an animal, for instance. We can immediately say “That is a human” and “that is an animal”. The same would apply to angelic nature. Angels have a different nature than do humans. And then we can speak about divine nature, only applicable to God. There is nothing on earth to which we can compare to the divine nature. We live in a physical, finite state of being. God does not.

We cannot anthropomorphize God. If God were a material being, three Persons in one Being would be contradictory because you can’t have a plurality of distinct physical persons except by material division or separation. But God is immaterial and infinite and therefore exists as Persons by a different mode of distinction. Rather than distinction by separation, it is a distinction by internal progression, contained entirely within his being, resulting in a real distinction of three.

So we do not have 'three Gods". There is only one divine Being.

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Now to my second point - the Baha’i writings say that Jesus longed for and prayed to Him. You say that you are not aware of Jesus longing for and praying to anyone else.

No, I didn’t say that Jesus didn’t pray to anyone else. He prayed to (conversed) with his Father. The Baha’i statement infers that Jesus longed for one whom he had not yet seen. The Father was always with Jesus, as was the Holy Spirit.

So then what is the relationship between father and son? Did Father create Son (or did Father birth Son) or not?

Jesus was not created. He has existed from eternity as the second Person of the Trinity. We use the term “begotten, not made”, consubstantial (one in substance) with the Father. The second Person of the Trinity then assumed human flesh, being born of a virgin, in order that a pure sacrifice might be made for the sins of the world. Subsequent to his resurrection he returned to the Father with his glorified human body.

And I know we are getting into the territory of body vs. spirit, but that’s quite okay with me. Are you saying that Father took a part of Himself and put it in body of Jesus. Is the Body of the Father the same or separate from the Body of Jesus who is now sitting in Heaven?

The Father has no body. He is pure divine spirit.

 

[SteveVH]

You are avoiding my question.

Does only Jesus have a body in Heaven and the Father is bodyless?

I assure you that I am not avoiding your question. If I misunderstood your question then please forgive me. I will never avoid your questions.

Jesus will forever have a glorified human body and yes, the Father has no body; certainly no human body, glorified or otherwise. He is immaterial and infinite.

 

[SteveVH]

Glad to see that I am going to lengths to answer your questions to the best of my ability, but my questions bring about the end to the discussion. We need to be honest with each other if we want to communication with one another. Honesty with ourselves is also required if we want to understand and recognize Truth.

To whom are you addressing this post? If it is to me, please demonstrate where I have not been honest? People spend their entire lives studying the nature of God in the Trinity and you want an entire course with in the confines of this forum. I would suggest that you do your own research. There are mountains of material addressing this issue that are at your fingertips. I am sorry if my explanations are not sufficient for you but please do not accuse me of being dishonest.

 

[fathercome]

So we do not have 'three Gods". There is only one divine Being.

I still don’t get it. So Jesus is not God because He has a Body?

No, I didn’t say that Jesus didn’t pray to anyone else. He prayed to (conversed) with his Father. The Baha’i statement infers that Jesus longed for one whom he had not yet seen. The Father was always with Jesus, as was the Holy Spirit.

Got it. Yes Baha’i belief is that we are today able to see the Father much as people are able to see the Son. Though “God” is beyond comprehension and beyond similitude and similarity, we as Baha’is are able to encounter both the Son and Father. Catholics, however, seem to only be able to encounter the Son Jesus, through Whom they recognize the Father. Right?

Jesus was not created. He has existed from eternity as the second Person of the Trinity. We use the term “begotten, not made”, consubstantial (one in substance) with the Father.

I don’t get it, sorry. What is the difference between Begotten and Created? Are you making up your own words? According to my dictionary, create and beget are synonyms.

The second Person of the Trinity then assumed human flesh, being born of a virgin, in order that a pure sacrifice might be made for the sins of the world. Subsequent to his resurrection he returned to the Father with his glorious human body.
The Father has no body. He is pure divine spirit.

So in heaven Jesus has a Body and the Father doesn’t have a Body but is pure divine spirit.

The claim of Baha’u’llah boils down to the appearance of the Most Great Spirit (the Father) on Earth without the intermediary of the Son. This is anticipated in the Bible as the coming of the “Spirit of Truth”. The word “Coming” is understood by Baha’is as a reference to the appearance of Baha’u’llah in human form without having been begotten.

 

[fathercome]

To whom are you addressing this post? If it is to me, please demonstrate where I have not been honest? People spend their entire lives studying the nature of God in the Trinity and you want an entire course with in the confines of this forum.

Many thanks. It has also been developed over many, many centuries, yes. Thanks for your personal understanding of it. What I am presenting is also my personal understanding of Baha’i beliefs.

 

[PRmerger]

I am still waiting for help understanding Trinity. My questions are still unanswered. Does Father have a body? Only Jesus has a Body in Heaven and no one else has a Body in heaven?

Mary has a body in heaven.

 

[PRmerger]

Baha’is claim such an event came to pass here on earth in Baha’u’llah.

And Catholics believe this happens daily, at every hour, at every Mass.

 

[SteveVH]

So Jesus is not God and did not live a physical life?

Please show me where I have made such a statement?

If God cannot anthropromorphize, then how can you say He exists in the person of Jesus?

To anthropomorphize means to attribute human characteristics to something which is not human. It has nothing to do with the second Person of the Trinity becoming human. We were speaking of the nature of the Holy Trinity, not the incarnation of Jesus Christ.

The rest of this went over my head, can you expand on it?

On what, in particular, would you like me to expand?

I still don’t get it. So Jesus is not God because He has a Body?

And do you arrive at this conclusion based upon what I have said?

Sure they were with Jesus in a spiritual sense. But How can Jesus see the Father if the Father doesn’t have a body?

Again, you are speaking in human terms. If the invisible God can see us without human eyes, I would suspect that Jesus can see the Father without human eyes.

I don’t get it, sorry. What is the difference between Begotten and Created? Are you making up your own words? According to my dictionary, create and beget are synonyms.

That would depend on which sense you are using the word. The Christian explanation makes it very clear that Christ was not “made” or “created”. He is “eternally begotten” of the Father. There is not a moment in which the second Person of the Trinity did not exist.

“In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God. All things came to be through him, and without him nothing came to be. What came to be through him was life, and this life was the light of the human race; the light shines in the darkness, and the darkness has not overcome it.”
(John 1: 1-5)

So in heaven Jesus has a Body and the Father doesn’t have a Body but is pure divine spirit.

That is my understanding.

John 1: 1-5The claim of Baha’u’llah boils down to the appearance of the Most Great Spirit (the Father) on Earth without the intermediary of the Son. This is anticipated in the Bible as the coming of the “Spirit of Truth”.

What is anticipated in the Bible is the coming of the Holy Spirit, not the Father.

The word “Coming” is understood by Baha’is as a reference to the appearance of Baha’u’llah in human form without having been begotten.

Does not Baha’u’llah have a human father and mother?

 

[PRmerger]

Also, This seems to be a bit different from the Baha’i belief, and less inclusive than the Baha’i belief, because the Divine Liturgy is Pre-Islamic not post-Islamic. Baha’is believe that Muhammad and the Qur’an are from God. The Divine Liturgy implies that the Qur’an and Muhammad (which came after the Divine Liturgy was already established) are false.

Yes–some of the things which the Koran and Muhammed professed are indeed false. :sad_yes:

 

[IgnatianPhilo]

I am still waiting for help understanding Trinity. My questions are still unanswered. Does Father have a body? Only Jesus has a Body in Heaven and no one else has a Body in heaven?

Ask in pm or open a specific thread in which to talk about the trinity. The trinity is not something that will remain only a partial conversation in this thread, it will soon consume the entire thread and bahai will be neglected.

 

[fathercome]

And Catholics believe this happens daily, at every hour, at every Mass.

Really? So who is the “body” of the Father without the inter-mediation of the Son?

 

[IgnatianPhilo]

Certainly regarding racism and hate against people, Baha’i writings enjoin people to love all mankind, the unity of mankind is the pivotal principal of the Baha’i writings. The Baha’i revelation alone is considered the Will of God for this day. This is the whole point of the Baha’i Faith, to bring the different religions like Islam, Christianity, Judaism, Zoroastrianism, Sabeanism (the religion of John the Baptist) etc., as well as nations and peoples together.

Again, How do you suppose Baha’is claim to unite Islam, Christianity, Judaism, Zoroastrianism, Sabeanism all into One Faith?

The problem with that claim is that in its mere existence the bahai is another division within the realm of humanity. Rather than unite, all there is, is one more divided segment. That being said, if you are talking about the relgiions and not the people, I suggest that is impossible.

Religions do not all contain the same message, they contradict, bahai cannot unite islam and Christianity because both say things the other cannot believe. We say Jesus Christ is our creator, the ultimate judge, the one whom has all power in heaven and earth (this is what the new testament says). The Quran denies this. Bahai will ignore the differences in order to maintain that they have united these divided religions, seemingly unaware of the importance of these differences in teh first place which define these religions. The statement that bahai has united all faiths is the equivelent to saying Kingdom hearts has united the entire disney universe, snippets and edits taken selectively from the source material to create something new and apparently bold.

 

[PRmerger]

Really? So who is the “body” of the Father without the inter-mediation of the Son?

Huh?

Who is the “body” of the Father?

Wha???

 

[fathercome]

To anthropomorphize means to attribute human characteristics to something which is not human. It has nothing to do with the second Person of the Trinity becoming human. We were speaking of the nature of the Holy Trinity, not the incarnation of Jesus Christ.

How is this not a self-contradictory statement? If God is not anthropromorphic, how can you say the second person of the Trinity became human? So the “Holy Trinity” seems to be your One God, not Jesus, right?

Again, you are speaking in human terms. If the invisible God can see us without human eyes, I would suspect that Jesus can see the Father without human eyes.

How is this logical?

That would depend on which sense you are using the word. The Christian explanation makes it very clear that Christ was not “made” or “created”. He is “eternally begotten” of the Father. There is not a moment in which the second Person of the Trinity did not exist.

This is illogical to me, and self-contradictory. It seems you are playing with words, because begetting and creating mean the same thing. Do you simply mean that the Father created the Son outside of time, and so the Son is Eternal in the sense that He was created out of time?

What is anticipated in the Bible is the coming of the Holy Spirit, not the Father.

Well, the Spirit of Truth is “coming”. But we are going TO the Father in heaven, no?

Does not Baha’u’llah have a human father and mother?

Yes.

 

[fathercome]

Huh?

Who is the “body” of the Father?

Wha???

Then, no, the same thing is not happening in Mass that Baha’is claim happened with the coming of Baha’u’llah.

 

[IgnatianPhilo]

Fathercome take my advice and open a room asking about the trinity. Or would you like me to open one for you?

 

[SteveVH]

How is this not a self-contradictory statement? If God is not anthropromorphic, how can you say the second person of the Trinity became human? So the “Holy Trinity” seems to be your One God, not Jesus, right?

How is this logical?

This is illogical to me, and self-contradictory. It seems you are playing with words, because begetting and creating mean the same thing. Do you simply mean that the Father created the Son outside of time, and so the Son is Eternal in the sense that He was created out of time?

Well, the Spirit of Truth is “coming”. But we are going TO the Father in heaven, no?

I have already explained all of this. At this point I think we are derailing this thread. If you would like to discuss the Trinity in detail then I suggest that you start a new thread. Your questions are becoming nonsensical.