Remember Abduh Rahman?

  • Thread starter Thread starter cestusdei
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
I see Pro_Jihad is in here. The Madrassa is active.

Summation of the madrassa position:
  1. Everything Islam does is good.
  2. When Islamists do something bad, it is:
    A. The fault of Christians or Jews.
    B. Because the victims deserved it.
    C. Not really done by Muslims.
  3. Everything any Christian or, indeed, anyone west of Suez does that’s bad is the fault of Christianity in general and the Catholic Church in particular.
Readers who are not Muslims, remember: If you said the things you say in here in an Islamic country, you and your family would be killed for saying it.
 
How is this post a hate campain against Muslims? How can Pro say that?:confused:

Is the hate campain the murderous threating thug Muslims that are making a bogus threat?

Thats all I see here in regard to hate campain.
 
Well, what constitutes dogma in your eyes? There is no set definition, but I can definitely prove to you that Popes, Councils, and the greatest theologians have all supported this punishment for heretics and apostates.

Would that be enough? Or do you want something more?
No unfortunately. You’d have to provide a definitive piece of information that shows where in Catholic doctrine it teaches that a Catholic can be put to death for leaving the faith.

You won’t be able to do that. However, I can point out at least two verses in your Holy book that advocate the killing of “unbelievers”. Now, you may say that these verses are misinterpreted, and if so, that points to another problem.

Regardless of what pope says what, there is still a central teaching and authority within the Church that will never change. A Catholic can always know what the truth is regardless of what another Catholic says.

I don’t think you can say the same for Islam, and until there are more Muslim voices denouncing violence than are advocating it, Islam will ever be defined by this “fringe” element. And that means the ball is in your court. But I’m sure you’ve heard this all before. 🙂
 
No unfortunately. You’d have to provide a definitive piece of information that shows where in Catholic doctrine it teaches that a Catholic can be put to death for leaving the faith.

You won’t be able to do that. However, I can point out at least two verses in your Holy book that advocate the killing of “unbelievers”. Now, you may say that these verses are misinterpreted, and if so, that points to another problem.
Okay, then I’ll ask the question again:

What is Catholic doctrine? What will you accept as proof of catholic doctrine?
Regardless of what pope says what, there is still a central teaching and authority within the Church that will never change. A Catholic can always know what the truth is regardless of what another Catholic says.
Okay, but what about the Pope, Councils, Cardinals, Bishops, Laymen, Saints, and Theologians? What if all of those supported punishing heretics by death?

Would that be a doctrine?
 
How is this post a hate campain against Muslims? How can Pro say that?:confused:

Is the hate campain the murderous threating thug Muslims that are making a bogus threat?

Thats all I see here in regard to hate campain.
Look at cestusdei’s post history. He wants to blame all of Islam for these crimes.

That is a hate campaign against Muslims. It’s like posting stories about people losing their homes to Jewish bankers over mortgage payments in order to “prove” that Judaism robs people of homes. Exact same method.
 
Okay, then I’ll ask the question again:

What is Catholic doctrine? What will you accept as proof of catholic doctrine?

Okay, but what about the Pope, Councils, Cardinals, Bishops, Laymen, Saints, and Theologians? What if all of those supported punishing heretics by death?

Would that be a doctrine?
You could look it up in the Catechism of the Catholic Church:
christusrex.org/www1/CDHN/ccc.html

IF the Pope, Councils, Cardinals, Bishops, Laymen, Saints, and Theologians got together to create doctrine that infallibly said Catholic converts should be killed, you’d find it somewhere.
 
You could look it up in the Catechism of the Catholic Church:
christusrex.org/www1/CDHN/ccc.html

IF the Pope, Councils, Cardinals, Bishops, Laymen, Saints, and Theologians got together to create doctrine that infallibly said Catholic converts should be killed, you’d find it somewhere.
There is no list of doctrines, but yes, every single one of those organs of the Church has condoned the death penalty for heretics and apostates.

You can see: Papal Bull, Ad Abolendum (Lucius III, condemning heretics to punishment)

Fourth Lateran council: fordham.edu/halsall/basis/lateran4.html
But if a temporal ruler, after having been requested and admonished by the Church, should neglect to cleanse his territory of this heretical foulness, let him be excommunicated by the metropolitan and the other bishops of the province. If he refuses to make satisfaction within a year, let the matter be made known to the supreme pontiff, that he may declare the ruler’s vassals absolved from their allegiance and may offer the territory to be ruled lay Catholics, who on the extermination of the heretics may possess it without hindrance and preserve it in the purity of faith; the right, however, of the chief ruler is to be respected as long as he offers no obstacle in this matter and permits freedom of action.
The Saint, and Doctor of the Church, Thomas Aquinas:newadvent.org/summa/301103.htm
On their own side there is the sin, whereby they deserve not only to be separated from the Church by excommunication, but also to be severed from the world by death. For it is a much graver matter to corrupt the faith which quickens the soul, than to forge money, which supports temporal life. Wherefore if forgers of money and other evil-doers are forthwith condemned to death by the secular authority, much more reason is there for heretics, as soon as they are convicted of heresy, to be not only excommunicated but even put to death.
fordham.edu/halsall/source/1382wycliffe.html#bull

Another Bull, condemning John Wycliffe to arrest and punishment.

How’s that for doctrine?
 
pro, Blame muslims? Yep because they are doing it right now, or was it the Jains that want to kill Rahman and kidnapped an Italian? Maybe it was the Amish? Possibly the Methodists? Gee, could it be…maybe…just perhaps…the MUSLIMS that did it? Why yes! Unless you want to show that someone else wants to kill Abdul.
 
Let me get this straight.

A guy in Afghanistan converted from Islam to Christianity (no word on which church?).
The government decided to execute him for leaving the Islamic religion.
He received asylum in Italy.

An Italian guy converted from Christianity to Islam.
This second guy is now in the hands of other Muslims.
These Muslims really want to execute the first guy.
They only have their hands on the second guy.
They are threatening to kill the second guy unless someone lets them kill the first guy.

Have I got the facts right? Because if I do, the scenario doesn’t make a whole lot of sense to me. Two-year-olds in the midst of a temper tantrum can come up with that logic.“If you won’t let me break your cell phone, then I’ll break my toys until you give it to me.” It seldom works with parents, but will it work in the international community?
 
Loren, you indeed have it right. Welcome to the wonderful world of Islam. Fasten your seatbelt, tighten your burka, and prepare for stoning.
 
There is no list of doctrines, but yes, every single one of those organs of the Church has condoned the death penalty for heretics and apostates.

You can see: Papal Bull, Ad Abolendum (Lucius III, condemning heretics to punishment)

Fourth Lateran council: fordham.edu/halsall/basis/lateran4.html

The Saint, and Doctor of the Church, Thomas Aquinas:newadvent.org/summa/301103.htm

fordham.edu/halsall/source/1382wycliffe.html#bull

Another Bull, condemning John Wycliffe to arrest and punishment.

How’s that for doctrine?
It’s not - it’s a series of opinions (there are other examples of “bad” papal bulls, and there are quite a few Catholic theologians who disagree with aspects of St. Thomas Aquinas’ opinions) and yes, while the 4th Lateran Council did include language about heretics, it was in decree of the Crusades. All of this is “official” and yes, some papal bulls I’m sure have aided to the development of doctrine, but the killing of Catholics for leaving the faith isn’t a defined doctrine.

I’m not trying to play tit-for-tat here but I don’t want to get too much off topic - It’s still not doctrine regardless of the extreme language or opinions. In any case, these are examples that are centuries old. We are dealing with a current case of a Muslim being killed for converting.
 
It’s not - it’s a series of opinions (there are other examples of “bad” papal bulls, and there are quite a few Catholic theologians who disagree with aspects of St. Thomas Aquinas’ opinions) and yes, while the 4th Lateran Council did include language about heretics, it was in decree of the Crusades. All of this is “official” and yes, some papal bulls I’m sure have aided to the development of doctrine, but the killing of Catholics for leaving the faith isn’t a defined doctrine.

I’m not trying to play tit-for-tat here but I don’t want to get too much off topic - It’s still not doctrine regardless of the extreme language or opinions. In any case, these are examples that are centuries old. We are dealing with a current case of a Muslim being killed for converting.
Okay, so tell me, what makes “official doctrine” that isn’t on my list? What basis do you have for saying that this is not doctrine?
 
No unfortunately. You’d have to provide a definitive piece of information that shows where in Catholic doctrine it teaches that a Catholic can be put to death for leaving the faith.

You won’t be able to do that. However, I can point out at least two verses in your Holy book that advocate the killing of “unbelievers”. Now, you may say that these verses are misinterpreted, and if so, that points to another problem.

Regardless of what pope says what, there is still a central teaching and authority within the Church that will never change. A Catholic can always know what the truth is regardless of what another Catholic says.

I don’t think you can say the same for Islam, and until there are more Muslim voices denouncing violence than are advocating it, Islam will ever be defined by this “fringe” element. And that means the ball is in your court. But I’m sure you’ve heard this all before. 🙂
You’re wrong. The Church adopts the “OT” as part of its scripture. It calls for the death of those who practice idolatry. Now you will rightly say the Church does not follow that. But it is in your holy book.

How is that different from a muslim responding that the way a passage is written is not the way it is followed?
 
You’re wrong. The Church adopts the “OT” as part of its scripture. It calls for the death of those who practice idolatry. Now you will rightly say the Church does not follow that. But it is in your holy book.

How is that different from a muslim responding that the way a passage is written is not the way it is followed?
Because they DO consider the Quran to be a straightforward and clear guide for all times.
 
Because they DO consider the Quran to be a straightforward and clear guide for all times.
But we know that for the vast majority of muslims that is not the case. We do not have 1 billion people running around screaming for the death of infidels or apostates. There are a few Jews who take a strict reading of the Tanakh and conclude that Israel should not exist. That does not mean that the destruction of Israel is mandated by Judaism.
 
You’re wrong. The Church adopts the “OT” as part of its scripture. It calls for the death of those who practice idolatry. Now you will rightly say the Church does not follow that. But it is in your holy book.

How is that different from a muslim responding that the way a passage is written is not the way it is followed?
The Chruch interprets scripture, including the OT, by first acknowledging that there are many different forms of writing used by the authors. It is not correct to interpret scripture using only a literal view at all times.

Christians do indeed revere the OT as part of God’s revelation, inspired by God, and it contains many truths and foreshadowing of God’s plan for man. It is still a useful and inspiring book, but many of its passages no longer apply to us today because God ushered in a new era of salvation, a final redeeming of mankind through Jesus Christ, who you can read about in the NT.

Catholics like to say, “The NT is hidden in the OT, and the OT is revealed in the NT” The themes you find in the OT you’ll see reflected, though in a different way, in the New.

In the OT, God had to lay down a set of laws that seem very rigid and forceful to us now. But mankind in that time was very wild and without any sort of moral guide that we have today. God wanted to wage war in order to cleanse the area of paganistic worship and tendencies, ways that are contrary to God’s image of mankind.

Those OT themes are still relevant in the NT, and while St. Paul sometimes talks in the NT in militaristic terms, the difference in the NT is that Jesus speaks of spiritual warfare, dying to Christ, instead of literally waging war against infidels.

God commands the execution of adulterers in the OT in order to cleanse the “tribe” of “bad seeds” whose ways could taint the whole community. This is symbolic of how we are taught in the NT that one’s individual sin can destroy the whole body of believers, as we are all interconnected.

It’s also symbolic of how St. Paul tells us that once there were adulterers in the Church, but now they have the opportunity to cleanse themselves through the sacrifice made by Jesus Christ, rather than getting stoned to death.

This is an important difference - in the days of the OT, sinners would be stoned to death, but now with the ushering in of the new covenant in the NT, we can see that we can convert ourselves to Christ, and be washed clean of our sins and be eternally saved.

But this is only done by using our own free will. It is not compelled.

Those Christians who use the bible to condone the killing of other Christians for conversion or for anything sinful aren’t correctly interpreting scripture.

We Catholics can be sure of that because we have the fullness of Truth. We can definitively know the correct interpretation because of our hierarchical structure and teaching authority handed to St. Peter by Jesus Christ and going on from there. The Church is protected from making doctrinal errors in faith and morals through God’s protection and promise that the “gates of Hell would not prevail” against it.

There is no likewise central authority in Islam, nor in most other non-Catholic religions.

I hope I made that logical and correct. I ask anyone to add or correct if needed please!! 🙂 Especially Cestus as he’s an authority. 😉 😃
 
Valke2 has as much right to tell Catholics how we use Our Holy Book as much as pro or I or the bum off the street drinking out of a bottle in a paper bag has to say about the Jewish books and how they should be interpreted and used.

I wont even argue with Pro how the Qu’ran and other books of Islam should be used. I’ll ask Pro.

Valke2 is more brave. 🙂
 
But we know that for the vast majority of muslims that is not the case. We do not have 1 billion people running around screaming for the death of infidels or apostates. There are a few Jews who take a strict reading of the Tanakh and conclude that Israel should not exist. That does not mean that the destruction of Israel is mandated by Judaism.
did you come up with this on your own Valke2?

Pro, is the Qu’ran a straightforward guide for all times?

If a muslim denies this can they be muslim?
 
Valke2 has as much right to tell Catholics how we use Our Holy Book as much as pro or I or the bum off the street drinking out of a bottle in a paper bag has to say about the Jewish books and how they should be interpreted and used.

I wont even argue with Pro how the Qu’ran and other books of Islam should be used. I’ll ask Pro.

Valke2 is more brave. 🙂
Of course, my point was that what is written and what is followed can be two different things. I’m actually agreeing with you.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top