Remove your sins.. Be saved, be baptized!

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The Church teaches that it is heretical to believe that John’s Baptism had the same efficacy as Christ’s Baptism. John’s Baptism was a precursor , a call to repentance.

The Council of Trent says:
Canons On Baptism Canon 1. If anyone says that the baptism of John had the same effect as the baptism of Christ,[8] let him be anathema.
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John’s baptism did not forgive sins, dogknox. Those under John’s baptism were re-baptized, and there is only one baptism for the forgiveness of sins. If sins were forgiven, it is in the same way as through the Old Covenant, through God’s Grace in anticipation of the cross, not because the efficacy of the baptism itself. Your statement contradicts Ephesians 4 and the Nicene Creed. As another poster has pointed out, John’s variation on the Jewish mikveh was meant to prepare the way for Jesus’ baptism. John himself speaks of the differences in their baptisms, even though they both, we will see later, baptize with water. (Before anybody even says something like “Jesus didn’t baptize,” I will point out that the text and tradition say otherwise, despite how people sometimes construe John 4:1).

Jesus, according to the Catholic view and the views of the fathers such as Saint Ignatius of Antioch, was baptized to purify the very waters, to make it a Sacrament. His baptism allowed our baptism to to reverse the Fall, and restore our covenant relationship with God. If John’s baptism did this, suddenly you are making John the Baptist the fulfillment of the prophecy of Ezekiel 36:25, You are making John the Baptist the New Adam, you are making John the Baptist the fulfillment of the all OT typology, and you make the baptism of Jesus redundant. You contradict Ephesians, the Nicene Creed, Magisterium, Catholic (and some protestant) Bible commentary, Jewish traditions, the list goes on. Please don’t quote pages and pages of verses, I know them. Just think carefully not merely about what you believe, but instead about the implications of what you believe. God Bless.
 
dogknox said:
You miss the point.
Does not matter if it is John’s or the Brides… BOTH remove sins!
Paul wanted them to receive the GIFT!
The Groom had not yet sent the GIFT!
They had their sins removed by the waters of Baptism, all they needed was the GIFT, the Holy Spirit!
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Dude, I admire your zeal, but your theology has run off the rails at this point. Have you discussed this with your priest? Should.
 
Hello thistle you seem to think "John’s baptism does NOT remove sins!!

Mark 1:4
And so John the Baptist appeared in the wilderness, preaching a baptism of repentance for the forgiveness of sins.
5 The whole Judean countryside and all the people of Jerusalem** went out to him. Confessing their sins,** they were baptized by him in the Jordan River.

**CLEARLY **all the people of Jerusalem… “Confessed their SINS” verse #5 (above)
CLEARLY all the people of Jerusalem… must have believed, “**John’s baptism removed SINS!” **Otherwise why…
Why would they be confessing them!!!

Wait it does NOT stop there…
Matthew 3:7
But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees coming to where he was baptizing, he said to them: “You brood of vipers! Who warned you to flee from the coming wrath?
8 Produce fruit in keeping with repentance.
9 And do not think you can say to yourselves, ‘We have Abraham as our father.’ I tell you that out of these stones God can raise up children for Abraham.
10 The ax is already at the root of the trees, and every tree that does not produce good fruit will be cut down and thrown into the fire.

Do you see… “You brood of vipers"!? John is calling the Pharisees and Sadducees “Children of Satan”! All Jews knew the story of Adam & Eve, all Know the SNAKE is Satan!

thistle Do you also see… Who warned you to flee from the coming wrath?
OBVIOUSLY ** John is Preaching… The "Baptized will save from “God’s WRATH!”**

**Obviously **John is also preaching about becoming CHILDREN of God!
He calls the Pharisees and Sadducees “CHILDREN of Satan”!
He tells them they are NOT “Children of Abraham”!
He tells them God can make “CHILDREN from stones”!
Notice all about CHILDREN!

Baptism reforms… It forms people into God’s CHILDREN, Clearly this is the message from John!
Clearly right after… Jesus is Baptized and then: God proclaims: “Jesus is my child”!

FACT: Baptism makes God’s CHILDREN!
FACT: God has only ONE Son… Jesus!
If you want to be called…“Child Of God” you MUST be formed into the Body Of Jesus! AND…
And Baptism does just this… “It re-Forms the Dust Of The Earth into the Body of Jesus!”
It Re-FORMS >>US<< into the the “Body Of Jesus”!
Jesus is also formed from EARTH & Spirit as Adam was!

**Dogknox **🙂
 
po18guy said:
Dude, I admire your zeal, but your theology has run off the rails at this point. Have you discussed this with your priest? Should.
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I reply… With scriptures…
Matthew 3:11 “I baptize you with water for repentance. But after me comes one who is more powerful than I, whose sandals I am not worthy to carry. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire.

po18guy The WATER baptism does NOT stop with John’s death. The Church continues to Baptize with WATER! The Church is the Bride of Jesus! This also is scripture…
Ephesians 5:23
For the husband is the head of the wife as Christ is the head of the church, his body, of which he is the Savior.
&
Revelation 21:9
The New Jerusalem, the Bride of the Lamb ] One of the seven angels who had the seven bowls full of the seven last plagues came and said to me, “Come, I will show you the bride, the wife of the Lamb.”

po18guy **The BRIDE: **Forms God’s Children with the waters of Baptism.
She the BRIDE, has over one billion children on earth… yet she remains HOLY, without stain… Blameless!
po18guy The Bride of Christ… Remains a VIRGIN!

Ephesians 5:25
Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her
26 to make her holy, cleansing** her by the washing with water through the word,
27 and to present her to himself as a **radiant church, without stain or wrinkle or any other blemish, but holy and blameless. **

The Groom: Sends the “Holy Spirit”! Jesus will Baptize John tells you so: **He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire. **

po18guy It takes TWO parents to form a Child!
The Bride: My Mother is the Catholic Church!
The Groom: My Father is God!

The Body of God’s only son is “Formed from EARTH & Spirit!”
😃**
 
Seatuck said:
The Church teaches that it is heretical to believe that John’s Baptism had the same efficacy as Christ’s Baptism. John’s Baptism was a precursor , a call to repentance.

The Council of Trent says:
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The Baptism of Jesus was the GIFT of the Holy Spirit!
John himself tells you he does NOT send “FIRE and SPIRIT” he tells you his baptism is with WATER!

Seatuck The CHURCH baptizes with water… SHE has the same effect as Johns water baptism!
The BRIDE’S baptism is different then the GROOMS!!!

The Bride uses WATER… She does NOT send the Holy Spirit, the Groom does that!
The Brides WATER Baptism removes sins same as John’s does!
The Groom’s Jesus’s baptism is the poring out of the Holy Spirit!

38 Peter replied, “Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

"Repent be BAPTIZED for the Forgiveness of sins!"
The BRIDE does the water part.

The Groom sends the GIFT!

I am NOT saying; John sends the Holy Spirit… Scriptures do not say John sends the Holy Spirit! Johns Baptism only removes sins… But the removal of sins >>ALONE<< does not make God’s Children!
The REMOVAL of SINS plus the** GIFT**… Forms the Children of God!
😛
 
dogknox said:
The Baptism of Jesus was the GIFT of the Holy Spirit!
John himself tells you he does NOT send “FIRE and SPIRIT” he tells you his baptism is with WATER!

Seatuck The CHURCH baptizes with water… SHE has the same effect as Johns water baptism!
The BRIDE’S baptism is different then the GROOMS!!!

The Bride uses WATER… She does NOT send the Holy Spirit, the Groom does that!
The Brides WATER Baptism removes sins same as John’s does!
The Groom’s Jesus’s baptism is the poring out of the Holy Spirit!

38 Peter replied, “Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

"Repent be BAPTIZED for the Forgiveness of sins!"
The BRIDE does the water part.

The Groom sends the GIFT!

I am NOT saying; John sends the Holy Spirit… Scriptures do not say John sends the Holy Spirit! Johns Baptism only removes sins… But the removal of sins >>ALONE<< does not make God’s Children!
The REMOVAL of SINS plus the** GIFT**… Forms the Children of God!
😛
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Why can’t you give a plain answer. You seem to be going in circles.

Do you believe that both the baptism of John the Baptist and the baptism with water in the name of the Father, and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit have the same effect?

Yes or No??
 
thistle said:
Why can’t you give a plain answer. You seem to be going in circles.
Do you believe that both the baptism of John the Baptist and the baptism with water in the name of the Father, and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit have the same effect?
Yes or No??
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I reply it is NOT a simple “Yes or No!”
John did not baptize with the authority of the Father, Son and the Holy Spirit!
YES Both remove sins!
NO both do not make God’s family!

To be in God’s FAMILY you must be a “HIS disciple!”
Matthew 12:49
Pointing to his** disciples**, he said, “Here are my mother and my brothers.

**Question Yes or NO… “Are Disciples in God’s family!” Here are my mother and my brothers
**Question **“Yes or No” are the Disciple Jesus pointed at… “HIS”!!??
**Question **“Yes or No” are the Disciple Jesus pointed at… Johns???

**thistle **IF you believe the scriptures you will see…
Baptism of water removes sins!
You will understand…The Disciples of Jesus are IN Jesus’s FAMILY!
Question Yes or NO if you are "IN the Family Of Jesus is, God your father, is Mary your Mother, is Jesus your BROTHER!?

Here is the root of the whole thing…
How do you become a Disciple of Jesus… ? How do you become “Brother of Jesus!”?
The answer is in scripture…Jesus just told the Apostles the Authority of God is his…
Matthew 28:19
Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,

**thistle ** Do you see it? Jesus just said… make disciples of all nations, baptizing
**thistle ** How does Jesus make his disciples? Answer is; by Baptism!

Baptize in the Name of the Father, with all the AUTHORITY of the Father!
Baptize in the Name of the Son, with all the AUTHORITY of the Son!
Baptize in the Name of the Holy Spirit, with all the AUTHORITY of the Holy Spirit!
**thistle ** Make God’s children of all nations…with the Authority of God!
In the Name of God!

The Apostles have the Authority to make Brother’s for Jesus, of all nations!
NOT Brother’s for John… but for Jesus!
This is the difference between John’s and the Apostles baptism!
Both remove sins, John’s makes John’s disciples!
Jesus’s makes Jesus’s disciples, and All of Jesus’s disciples are are in God’s family!

John 4:1 **
Now Jesus learned that the Pharisees had heard that he was gaining and baptizing more disciples than John**— 2 although in fact it was not Jesus who baptized, but his disciples. 3 So he left Judea and went back once more to Galilee.

Dogknox🙂
 
dogknox said:
I reply it is NOT a simple “Yes or No!”
John did not baptize with the authority of the Father, Son and the Holy Spirit!
YES Both remove sins!
NO both do not make God’s family!

To be in God’s FAMILY you must be a “HIS disciple!”
Matthew 12:49
Pointing to his** disciples**, he said, “Here are my mother and my brothers.

**Question Yes or NO… “Are Disciples in God’s family!” Here are my mother and my brothers
**Question **“Yes or No” are the Disciple Jesus pointed at… “HIS”!!??
**Question **“Yes or No” are the Disciple Jesus pointed at… Johns???

**thistle **IF you believe the scriptures you will see…
Baptism of water removes sins!
You will understand…The Disciples of Jesus are IN Jesus’s FAMILY!
Question Yes or NO if you are "IN the Family Of Jesus is, God your father, is Mary your Mother, is Jesus your BROTHER!?

Here is the root of the whole thing…
How do you become a Disciple of Jesus… ? How do you become “Brother of Jesus!”?
The answer is in scripture…Jesus just told the Apostles the Authority of God is his…
Matthew 28:19
Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,

**thistle ** Do you see it? Jesus just said… make disciples of all nations, baptizing
**thistle ** How does Jesus make his disciples? Answer is; by Baptism!

Baptize in the Name of the Father, with all the AUTHORITY of the Father!
Baptize in the Name of the Son, with all the AUTHORITY of the Son!
Baptize in the Name of the Holy Spirit, with all the AUTHORITY of the Holy Spirit!
**thistle ** Make God’s children of all nations…with the Authority of God!
In the Name of God!

The Apostles have the Authority to make Brother’s for Jesus, of all nations!
NOT Brother’s for John… but for Jesus!
This is the difference between John’s and the Apostles baptism!
Both remove sins, John’s makes John’s disciples!
Jesus’s makes Jesus’s disciples, and All of Jesus’s disciples are are in God’s family!

John 4:1 **
Now Jesus learned that the Pharisees had heard that he was gaining and baptizing more disciples than John**— 2 although in fact it was not Jesus who baptized, but his disciples. 3 So he left Judea and went back once more to Galilee.

Dogknox🙂
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You are wrong.
Only baptism with water in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit removes sin.
For you to say that any other baptism has the same effect is heresy.
You are rejecting the teaching of the Church (document shown to you by another poster).
The teaching of the Church trumps your private interpretation of Scripture.
 
dogknox said:
I reply it is NOT a simple “Yes or No!”
John did not baptize with the authority of the Father, Son and the Holy Spirit!
YES Both remove sins!
NO both do not make God’s family!
Click to expand...
Dogknox-

Do you or do you not understand that your interpretation of Scripture on this point is in fact to Catholic teaching?
 
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