Reparative Therapy: Attempting to Repair The "Gay Man". Good or bad?

[Qoeleth]

As I understand it. orientation and preference are flexible. A lot of people with normal orientation become homosexuals when they a placed in prison, or send a lot of time in the navy. The reason why other people become homosexuals (as I understand it) is rejection by women, or abnormal relationships with their mothers, etc.

Homosexuals could probably be cured by exposure to attractive women, which would restore them to a healthy orientation, or perhaps by psychoanalysis, and a detection of the origins of their homosexuality.

I think this would be a good thing. Curing a person of a distorted sexual preference (whether homosexuality, pedophilia, necrophilia) is a very good idea. A normal, heterosexual orientation is necessary for proper functioning as either a man or a woman, whether in a relationship or celibate.

 

[grandfather]

I think certain people who sincerely want to change can be successfully “repaired” to the extent that they can abstain from having gay sex.

But I don’t think these people ever actually stop having those feelings. And that’s the danger to me. If you’re denying something that basic to who you are, it can be ultimately be destructive.

How do you know what is basic to who you are? Until recently all medical professionals saw homosexuality as a disorder. The Church says it is “intrinsically disordered”.

You might be an alcoholic. This is a disorder. It is not the persons identity, who the person is.

You can not change your identity. If a homosexual person can in fact be changed through treatment as is claimed, then he is not denying who he is. He is changing what he is.

As with any medical therapy I suspect not all patients are successfully treated. If there are people who claim that post therapy they no longer are sexually attracted to the same sex their claims are either true or they are lying.

 

[ASimon]

How do you know what is basic to who you are? Until recently all medical professionals saw homosexuality as a disorder. The Church says it is “intrinsically disordered”.

“Until recently” means, in this case, until 1974. So it’s been close to 40 years since the American Psychiatric Association classified homosexuality as a psychiatric disorder. The Catholic Church’s opinion on this issue is irrelevant to me.

As with any medical therapy I suspect not all patients are successfully treated. If there are people who claim that post therapy they no longer are sexually attracted to the same sex their claims are either true or they are lying.

Since the basis of homosexuality is dependent on certain (probably several) factors in the brain, it means that, in principle, we may eventually be able to alter those factors and “turn” a gay person straight (or vice versa).

But here’s the thing - we don’t know how to do that yet. And worse, the methods we’ve devised to do the job are roughly analogous to trying to remove someone’s brain tumor with the tools of a 17th century doctor. Even if your patient survives the procedure, the odds are that you would’ve done just as much harm as good.

That’s all I’m submitting here. Even if you think homosexuality is an abomination and anyone would be better off straight than gay, the tools aren’t even close to there to do the job, and the tools being used are, in most cases, doing more harm than good.

 

[grandfather]

I have difficulty crediting self-reports of “ex-gays” who claim they used to live a homosexual lifestyle, but have since been repaired so successfully that they don’t even have sexual feelings for people of their own gender anymore.

 

[Dakota_Roberts]

So somebody who thinks that they are bisexual or gay might not actually be bisexual or Gay? Could it be that their attraction is purely “pathological”, that it is a manifestation of sexual insecurities, and is only as persistent as the time that it goes untreated?

That’s interesting. That gives me some hope I think. The reason I say this is because I did not always experience attraction to the same sex. My earliest sense of attraction was to girls only. But I was bullied and emasculated as a boy. I was called a “poofter” at a young age, as if it was something to be expected of me, and I didn’t even know what it meant. I had an almost overwhelming fear of girls because I was attracted to them, but I felt outcast, less than the other boys, and I was even bullied and beaten up by girls when I was a child. I was resented by my dad; I remember clearly that it was because I was not a man’s man. He was ashamed and embarrassed by me. I remember the prettiest girl in secondary school had a crush on me and I was too scared to deal with it. I only began to experience a real sense of attraction to the same sex around the ages of 17, and 19 was when it was really apparent to me that I had attraction to men; but I had an equally strong if not stronger attraction to women.

The reason I bring this up is because I had a fear of becoming gay when all these feelings were developing, and I was wondering if my attractions are just a pathological response to being demoralised, emasculated, and humiliated as a man.

Don’t get me wrong. I am fully prepared to accept that it may be biological and is something I am going to have to live with; but I am exploring the possibility of reparation. Something about what you said rings true to me.

Your opinion is welcome. God bless.

You actually sound like the ideal patient for reparative therapy according to practitioners of it.

Maybe. Not in all cases.

It’s good and should be available to those who want to give it a try. I don’t believe that it could cause harm.

As to the individual motivations of the organisations offering or recommending it, I cannot say.

Personally, even though my homosexual inclination is disordered, could lead me towards sin and means I must live a celibate life, if I could take a pill to change it in an instant, I wouldn’t.

Things are not that rosy on the other side, and I quite like what this burden has made me.

If there were such a pill, however, I’d do everything I could to make it available to those who want to take it.

I support Reparative Therapy. Even if it’s not particularly effective, its acceptance as a legitimate therapeutic method would mean more research would go into it and it could become more effective with time.

I would personally find that pill very very tempting. The concept of it magically going away sounds wonderful, but then the grass always looks greener on the other side of the fence.

Good.

I see no reason to believe sexuality is inborn, genetic, or permanent. I believe it is an issue of conditioning.

One thing that sets it apart is that sexual arousal and even pleasure may be obtained by mere thought, whereas with something like candy or heroin, the substance must actually be ingested for effect. This means that to condition one’s sexuality, one must put all their effort into shunning all thoughts of undesirable sexual activity to distance oneself from that condition.

It’s just altogether more difficult due to the sexual properties of the human body.

And what of those people who are afraid, embarrassed, angry about those feelings or just otherwise want them gone and have never encouraged those feelings?

Conditioning is psychological. It’s even taught in psychology 101… see: Pavlov’s dog, etc.

And what about the people who have constantly tried to fight off those feelings.

As I understand it. orientation and preference are flexible. A lot of people with normal orientation become homosexuals when they a placed in prison, or send a lot of time in the navy. The reason why other people become homosexuals (as I understand it) is rejection by women, or abnormal relationships with their mothers, etc.

Homosexuals could probably be cured by exposure to attractive women, which would restore them to a healthy orientation, or perhaps by psychoanalysis, and a detection of the origins of their homosexuality.

I think this would be a good thing. Curing a person of a distorted sexual preference (whether homosexuality, pedophilia, necrophilia) is a very good idea. A normal, heterosexual orientation is necessary for proper functioning as either a man or a woman, whether in a relationship or celibate.

They don’t become homosexual, they just get desperate for sex and they crack because they are weak.

One would think that if homosexuals were cured by exposure to attractive women that working in the fashion industry would cure them, but…

 

[kch86]

Since the basis of homosexuality is dependent on certain (probably several) factors in the brain, it means that, in principle, we may eventually be able to alter those factors and “turn” a gay person straight (or vice versa).

But here’s the thing - we don’t know how to do that yet. And worse, the methods we’ve devised to do the job are roughly analogous to trying to remove someone’s brain tumor with the tools of a 17th century doctor. Even if your patient survives the procedure, the odds are that you would’ve done just as much harm as good.

I see what you are saying, though I can see a clear psychological genesis to my own homosexuality and am aware of the factors that led up to it, so at least for some, it is certainly not something that is “inborn.”

While I may be happy to remain with the way I am, this is something that many homosexuals would like to change about themselves if they could, and they’re not just religious guys. If we keep denying that it is a problem, then just as much as “we don’t know how to do that yet,” if we don’t try, we’re not going to find out.

That’s all I’m submitting here. Even if you think homosexuality is an abomination and anyone would be better off straight than gay, the tools aren’t even close to there to do the job, and the tools being used are, in most cases, doing more harm than good.

I agree with you that the tools are inadequate. Now, in real life, I’ve only met secular homosexuals, and I myself was one among them. Of the secular homosexuals I have spoken to, at least a third or maybe even more than half have said to me that if they could, they would change their orientation not because they see anything wrong with it but because it makes their lives difficult, because of the practicalities of there being a limited number of potential partners, the problems of gay culture, the practical difficulties in sustaining a long term relationship, discrimination, and even for those not interested in relationships, the very high risk of HIV.

So even if for you, the Church’s opinion is irrelevant, I hope you would agree that if one seeking therapy (be he religious or secular and for whatever reasons) accepts that it is experimental and might cause more harm than good (and I personally do not see how that would be likely), then it cannot be permissible to deny him that opportunity.

 

[kch86]

I would personally find that pill very very tempting. The concept of it magically going away sounds wonderful, but then the grass always looks greener on the other side of the fence.

Back when I was secular, I was curious and would in the course of conversation present the “pill” scenario to homosexuals I talked to. Of course, my sample is too small to be representative, but close to half said they would take the pill. These were secular guys who by responding to this scenario essentially implied that if they could get rid of their homosexuality in an instant, they would, even though it’s not something that they might have readily admitted if you asked them literally.

I really do think that we do serious harm to those who wish to change by denying them the opportunity to do so. These people, even if they’re not religious, have a right to seek treatment for a condition that deep down they feel that ails them. And even if that treatment is experimental and of unknown consequences or effectiveness, it should be offered, because the patient consents to the experiment. The potential harm is not physical in nature, and I am quite sure that there is little chance of any significant harm whatsoever, even if the treatment is ineffective.

Those in the gay “scene” who scream and shout about the damage such therapy may cause probably only represent those homosexuals who do not wish to change, and I’ve even heard one secular homosexual humorously say to me that these people are scared that fresh meat might get taken off the market.

Regardless, before anyone should accept that therapy causes damage, I should like that they be presented with solid, scientific evidence to prove that fact. If somebody is suggesting that an experimental therapy be denied to those who want it without providing scientific evidence as to why, his reasons are not scientific but political.

 

[tonyrey]

Back when I was secular, I was curious and would in the course of conversation present the “pill” scenario to homosexuals I talked to. Of course, my sample is too small to be representative, but close to half said they would take the pill. These were secular guys who by responding to this scenario essentially implied that if they could get rid of their homosexuality in an instant, they would, even though it’s not something that they might have readily admitted if you asked them literally.

I really do think that we do serious harm to those who wish to change by denying them the opportunity to do so. These people, even if they’re not religious, have a right to seek treatment for a condition that deep down they feel that ails them. And even if that treatment is experimental and of unknown consequences or effectiveness, it should be offered, because the patient consents to the experiment. The potential harm is not physical in nature, and I am quite sure that there is little chance of any significant harm whatsoever, even if the treatment is ineffective.

Those in the gay “scene” who scream and shout about the damage such therapy may cause probably only represent those homosexuals who do not wish to change, and I’ve even heard one secular homosexual humorously say to me that these people are scared that fresh meat might get taken off the market.

Regardless, before anyone should accept that therapy causes damage, I should like that they be presented with solid, scientific evidence to prove that fact. If somebody is suggesting that an experimental therapy be denied to those who want it without providing scientific evidence as to why, his reasons are not scientific but political.

I agree with you. We exist in order to choose for ourselves what to believe and how to live. Life is essentially about taking risks we believe are justified…

 

[kch86]

Conditioning is psychological. It’s even taught in psychology 101… see: Pavlov’s dog, etc.

I agree with you that conditioning may reinforce the problem once it exists, but I don’t think that it is the root cause. I didn’t receive a treat every time I was attracted to a man. Nobody tried to give me homosexual attractions. And if conditioning were the root cause, you’d think that at best that would just mean that some men are bisexual. Furthermore, given the amount of de-conditioning that many homosexuals put themselves through, you’d think a lot more would be turning straight. Whatever the root cause of homosexuality is, it doesn’t just result in an attraction to members of the same sex, but it often completely suppresses the natural attraction to members of the opposite sex. So it’s more complicated than that.

And if you think the Taj Mahal is beautiful, awe-inspiring and amazing, I might come along and say, “Yeah, it’s okay, but it doesn’t do much for me.” I can look at it all I want, plaster my bedroom with images of it, learn its history and intricacies and still be quite unimpressed with it. I may even recognise that it’s symmetrical and lovely and all, but it doesn’t elicit an emotional response. I can’t make myself have an emotional response to something that doesn’t provide it in the first place. Emotions are beyond one’s conscious control.

But maybe there’s an underlying reason why I cannot get the sense of awe and amazement other people get when looking at that particular structure. That’s the thing that needs to be investigated.

 

[grandfather]

I agree with you. We exist in order to choose for ourselves what to believe and how to live. Life is essentially about taking risks we believe are justified…

This is most certainly not remotely why we exist, our reason to be. It is not the purpose for which we are made. Anyone who would say something like this can not possibly know why we exist and is confused.

We exist to love and be loved. We exist to know love and express love. This is the purpose for which we are made. We do not figure this out by the power of our finite intellect. It is revealed to us by our maker and its knowledge is knowable through religious faith, believing what we are told.

Those recognized as the greatest human geniuses in history can not tell you why they exist. They can discover the physical laws, quantum mechanics and the theory of relativity. They can not tell you why they or you exist and they do not even try.

Underlying everything we do is an attempt to fulfill the purpose for which we are made, to achieve this end. It is what we seek consciously or subconsciously in what we do. We will either succeed or fail in achieving our purpose which is also our proper destiny.

There are paths that will help us to our fulfillment and those that will prevent it. We do not know where a path we are on will take us until we get where it is going, unless someone who does know tells us. We either choose to believe or not believe what we are told by the same source that tells us why we exist and who gave us existance.

My cousin died of AIDS. It was a horrible experience. I loved him and still do. He was caught up in the homosexual lifestyle in NYC. He told me what it was like. According to him gay men a vicious and mean to one another. He could not escape it. He was trapped and could not find a way out, like anyone enslaved by any sin. He indeed made his choices for himself on what to believe and how to live. He rejected religion all his life.

As death approached he was terrified. He was afraid to close his eyes knowing he would not open them. He remained awake for five days in this terror. His family although never religious in any sense prayed for him as people tend to do when faced with great trauma.

In his last hours in a state of semiconciousness he spoke the things he was thinking. There were two voices in a debate he was having within his soul. One voice condemned him for the life he led and the other attempted to justify it. His sister listened to it from beginning to end. She was a nurse for 30 years and watched many people die. She said she never saw anything like her brother’s death. Finally the voice of conscience convicted him. He became lucid and said to his sister, “I have wasted my life”. He fell into a peaceful sleep and slept for about 24 hours.

He awoke and said to the nurse in the room, “I am ready to die now”. His sister was grieving there with him in bedside vigil. She stepped outside the room. A 96 year old Baptist minister came by and spoke with her in the hall. She told him her brother was in the room dying and the minister asked if he would like someone to pray with him. She said she would ask, but knowing he rejected religion the answer would probably be no. He agreed and the minister spent about a half hour alone with him. He died at peace.

Religion does not condemn the drunk, the thief, the adulterer, or the homosexual. It says these paths will not lead us to our proper destiny which we can not yet see, or know until we get there. It says in order to get where we are supposed to be going we need to turn off these paths, repent, change. If we say we can not change, change is impossible, then we are destined to take them to wherever they lead. If we refuse to believe freedom from slavery is impossible, or that we prefer slavery, then we will be slaves.

 

[ivebeenshown]

And what of those people who are afraid, embarrassed, angry about those feelings or just otherwise want them gone and have never encouraged those feelings? And what about the people who have constantly tried to fight off those feelings.

I’ll say this: some people have an extremely difficult time getting their diet in order, and conditioning themselves away from junk food and towards healthy food. Some even die of morbid obesity. They might be afraid, embarrassed, or angry about their propensity towards eating junk and they might constantly try to fight off those cravings and constantly fail…

…but does that mean they should not try, and that it is impossible? NO!

 

[kch86]

I’ll say this: some people have an extremely difficult time getting their diet in order, and conditioning themselves away from junk food and towards healthy food. Some even die of morbid obesity. They might be afraid, embarrassed, or angry about their propensity towards eating junk and they might constantly try to fight off those cravings and constantly fail…

…but does that mean they should not try, and that it is impossible? NO!

So you declare it to be solely the result of conditioning. On what authority?

Do you have scientific evidence to back your point of view up?

Are you homosexual and have you been able to gain some unique insight into your condition?

Could you provide some anecdotal evidence from your extensive experience and interaction with homosexuals?

 

[ivebeenshown]

So you declare it to be solely the result of conditioning. On what authority?

Do you have scientific evidence to back your point of view up?

Are you homosexual and have you been able to gain some unique insight into your condition?

Could you provide some anecdotal evidence from your extensive experience and interaction with homosexuals?

I didn’t say it was solely the result of conditioning. I believe biological factors may influence conditioning and its end result, but not that the biological aspects are the be-all-end-all-make-or-break of sexuality.

Do I believe that people can get to a point where they live the long rest of their life without even once experiencing a homosexual temptation again? I really doubt that. What I do know is that since I repented, things have got MUCH better for me. (Anecdotal, not scientific, I know.)

 

[kch86]

I didn’t say it was solely the result of conditioning. I believe biological factors may influence conditioning and its end result, but not that the biological aspects are the be-all-end-all-make-or-break of sexuality.

Do I believe that people can get to a point where they live the long rest of their life without even once experiencing a homosexual temptation again? I really doubt that. What I do know is that since I repented, things have got MUCH better for me. (Anecdotal, not scientific, I know.)

I think I agree, though I personally see biological factors as the least important, although I don’t exclude them. I’m just uneasy with the word “conditioning” because it almost implies the disorder was picked up as a habit through some sort of repetition of behaviour which was either intentional or intentionally permitted, when I think that many if not most homosexuals strongly and actively suppressed their feelings at the beginning.

Regardless of how the problem is caused and whether it can be remedied and if so, to what extent, it is not having temptations that is sinful, just acting on them. And so, irrespective of whether there is an effective therapy that could make life easier, we can manage if there isn’t.

In any case, I’m really happy for you that things have got much better for you. God bless.

 

[meltzerboy]

So somebody who thinks that they are bisexual or gay might not actually be bisexual or Gay? Could it be that their attraction is purely “pathological”, that it is a manifestation of sexual insecurities, and is only as persistent as the time that it goes untreated?

That’s interesting. That gives me some hope I think. The reason I say this is because I did not always experience attraction to the same sex. My earliest sense of attraction was to girls only. But I was bullied and emasculated as a boy. I was called a “poofter” at a young age, as if it was something to be expected of me, and I didn’t even know what it meant. I had an almost overwhelming fear of girls because I was attracted to them, but I felt outcast, less than the other boys, and I was even bullied and beaten up by girls when I was a child. I was resented by my dad; I remember clearly that it was because I was not a man’s man. He was ashamed and embarrassed by me. I remember the prettiest girl in secondary school had a crush on me and I was too scared to deal with it. I only began to experience a real sense of attraction to the same sex around the ages of 17, and 19 was when it was really apparent to me that I had attraction to men; but I had an equally strong if not stronger attraction to women.

The reason I bring this up is because I had a fear of becoming gay when all these feelings were developing, and I was wondering if my attractions are just a pathological response to being demoralised, emasculated, and humiliated as a man.

Don’t get me wrong. I am fully prepared to accept that it may be biological and is something I am going to have to live with; but I am exploring the possibility of reparation. Something about what you said rings true to me.

Your opinion is welcome. God bless.

I don’t generally advocate reparative therapy; however, everyone’s story is somewhat different, and based on what you’ve stated, I think you should give this a try. Of course, the outcome of any therapy depends on what is called nonspecific factors, as well as the technical skill of the therapist. These factors include the patient’s trust in the therapist, the therapist’s empathy for the patient, and the nature of the therapeutic relationship, among others. IOW, you have to find the therapist who’s right for you.

 

[ivebeenshown]

I think I agree, though I personally see biological factors as the least important, although I don’t exclude them. I’m just uneasy with the word “conditioning” because it almost implies the disorder was picked up as a habit through some sort of repetition of behaviour which was either intentional or intentionally permitted, when I think that many if not most homosexuals strongly and actively suppressed their feelings at the beginning.

I believe conditioning because when I was a teen I was told it was okay to masturbate and okay to be gay, I put two and two together and made a conscious decision to associate males with sexual stimulus. That is my experience though, so of course I ‘project’ that and assume that most if not all others who identify as gay had a little more of a conscious role in their sexuality than they will admit to. Really, I can’t be sure. But ultimately I will choose to side by what the Church teaches.

Regardless of how the problem is caused and whether it can be remedied and if so, to what extent, it is not having temptations that is sinful, just acting on them. And so, irrespective of whether there is an effective therapy that could make life easier, we can manage if there isn’t.

Right. Even Jesus was tempted in the wilderness. However as widely accepted with eating disorders and drug abuse, there are ‘triggers’ and of course ‘stinking thinking’ with ANY type of sin or temptation you could imagine. We can fight against it, and the battle is our cross.

In any case, I’m really happy for you that things have got much better for you. God bless.

Thank you, God bless you too! Stay strong against Satan, he is more prevalent than ever!

 

[Dakota_Roberts]

I’ll say this: some people have an extremely difficult time getting their diet in order, and conditioning themselves away from junk food and towards healthy food. Some even die of morbid obesity. They might be afraid, embarrassed, or angry about their propensity towards eating junk and they might constantly try to fight off those cravings and constantly fail…

…but does that mean they should not try, and that it is impossible? NO!

Fighting off those cravings when dealing with obesity means not acting on them. When someone is attracted to the same sex the equivalent would be not indulging those thoughts.

I believe conditioning because when I was a teen I was told it was okay to masturbate and okay to be gay, I put two and two together and made a conscious decision to associate males with sexual stimulus. That is my experience though, so of course I ‘project’ that and assume that most if not all others who identify as gay had a little more of a conscious role in their sexuality than they will admit to. Really, I can’t be sure. But ultimately I will choose to side by what the Church teaches.

Right. Even Jesus was tempted in the wilderness. However as widely accepted with eating disorders and drug abuse, there are ‘triggers’ and of course ‘stinking thinking’ with ANY type of sin or temptation you could imagine. We can fight against it, and the battle is our cross.

Thank you, God bless you too! Stay strong against Satan, he is more prevalent than ever!

If someone was taught that it isn’t okay to masturbate and doesn’t; and know that homosexual acts are very wrong and doesn’t act on them or entertain those thoughts then shouldn’t those feelings not take root? The problem appears to be that you are projecting your experience and while your circumstances may be similar to others or even be common it isn’t necessarily universal.

 

[grandfather]

If someone was taught that it isn’t okay to masturbate and doesn’t; and know that homosexual acts are very wrong and doesn’t act on them or entertain those thoughts then shouldn’t those feelings not take root? The problem appears to be that you are projecting your experience and while your circumstances may be similar to others or even be common it isn’t necessarily universal.

Suppose there were ten people in a dark room looking for a way out. They all had similar expereinces feeling their way along the walls high and low, tripping over furniture and one another, crawling under tables. Suppose one person found a way out. From another room where the lights were on he called back in to his friends who were still trapped. He says I escaped and this is how. You can do it also.

Those still lost refuse to believe him and say he is projecting his experience on others.

Of course that is what he is doing.

Jesus helped me overcome my sin. I am projecting this experience on everyone. Try it.

Some say that may be true for me, but they don’t want to go that way. OK, keep doing what you are doing. See where it gets you.

 

[Sair]

People have said that they have been cured from homosexuality. Others, both Christian and Atheist, think its dangerous and does more harm than Good.

Do you think sexual orientation can be changed?

Is Reparative theorapy good, or are private doctors and Christian organisations misleading young people into thinking that change is possible?

Therapy is often necessary to help people with persistent harmful disorders, such as depression or alcoholism, for example - things that have a demonstrable negative effect upon a person’s wellbeing.

But you know, there’s a particular saying - “once an alcoholic, always an alcoholic.” If you have a particular inclination, sometimes it’s not possible to change it, only exert a measure of control over it.

The real question is not whether therapy to ‘cure’ homosexuality is effective or not (I have my doubts, to be honest - could a heterosexual person be counselled into homosexuality?) but whether homosexuality is actually something that requires ‘curing’ or is merely a natural variation of human sexuality. And moreover, whether being told that your inclinations, though not demonstrably harmful in themselves, are “wrong” and “disordered” is actually more harmful than beneficial - is it really good for a person to be schooled into avoiding the intimacy they need and desire as a human being, because it’s with the “wrong” gender? Or to seek it with those to whom they can’t fully respond sexually?

 

[Dakota_Roberts]

Suppose there were ten people in a dark room looking for a way out. They all had similar expereinces feeling their way along the walls high and low, tripping over furniture and one another, crawling under tables. Suppose one person found a way out. From another room where the lights were on he called back in to his friends who were still trapped. He says I escaped and this is how. You can do it also.

Those still lost refuse to believe him and say he is projecting his experience on others.

Of course that is what he is doing.

Jesus helped me overcome my sin. I am projecting this experience on everyone. Try it.

Some say that may be true for me, but they don’t want to go that way. OK, keep doing what you are doing. See where it gets you.

You make the fallacious supposition that all ten are in the same room