Repeal of the Instruction against Gays

[bluealtec]

I hope and pray that the Vatican repeals the Instruction on persons with homosexual orientation in view of entering the Seminary and the Holy Orders.

I think its unfair to equate pedo with gays as what was done by this instruction.

 

[archangel04]

I hope and pray that the Vatican repeals the Instruction on persons with homosexual orientation in view of entering the Seminary and the Holy Orders.

I think its unfair to equate pedo with gays as what was done by this instruction.

The priesthood is not about “fair” it’s not a right. Wether you are Catholic or non-catholic no one has the right to become a priest. The Church has the authroirty to choose what man, yes I mean man as in male, can enter the priesthood. The instruction did not come out of thin air, much study was done before it came out. Man with same -sex attraction may still be able to enter seminary, but those with deep seeded attractions are not, and I see nothing wrong with this rule.

 

[Friar_David_O.Carm]

The instructions state that those with “deep seated” homosexual tendencies are to be excluded.

This is usually interpreted as those who are actively engaged in homosexual behavior or supporting the homosexual lifestyle, both of which are incompatible with the Catholic Faith.

 

[utah_rose]

I hope and pray that the Vatican repeals the Instruction on persons with homosexual orientation in view of entering the Seminary and the Holy Orders.

I think its unfair to equate pedo with gays as what was done by this instruction.

No, not all are pedophiles, but the temptation is there. Most of the molestation was done to boys, not girls, and many of the men were sexually abused when they were boys.

So, if you have that tendency you should not be around children at all. It would be as difficult as an alcoholic staying away from an alcoholic beverage that was available to him.

We all must avoid the occasion of sin. Perhaps these men are better suited for being lectors in the Church or serving the Church in another capacity.

Sadly, this is their cross to bear, but it would be unfair both to children and other men for homosexuals to be ordained into the priesthood.

 

[LemonAndLime]

No, not all are pedophiles, but the temptation is there. Most of the molestation was done to boys, not girls, and many of the men were sexually abused when they were boys.

So, if you have that tendency you should not be around children at all. It would be as difficult as an alcoholic staying away from an alcoholic beverage that was available to him.

We all must avoid the occasion of sin. Perhaps these men are better suited for being lectors in the Church or serving the Church in another capacity.

Sadly, this is their cross to bear, but it would be unfair both to children and other men for homosexuals to be ordained into the priesthood.

So you are saying that homosexuality and paedophilia are one and the same?

Here’s an interesting fact. Most paedophiles are white men married to WOMEN.

Now what do you have to say about that?

I will not stand for CAF members stating, on completely groundless “facts”, that homosexuality and paedophilia are the same or potentially lead to each other. It does not reflect the actual facts. If a man was to sexually abuse a 4 year old girl does that make it a “typical” heterosexual act? No? Well, it’s not okay then to suggest that a male abusing a male 4 year old as homosexual. Both suggestions are unfair and inflammatory.

 

[Joe_5859]

I hope and pray that the Vatican repeals the Instruction on persons with homosexual orientation in view of entering the Seminary and the Holy Orders.

I think its unfair to equate pedo with gays as what was done by this instruction.

Welcome to CAF!

I’m just curious, what type of discussion were you hoping to start here?

 

[Sonic]

I think its unfair to equate pedo with gays as what was done by this instruction.

This is a fact that was pointed out by Fr. Benedict Groeschel on EWTN:

Pedophilia is not a separate orientation in itself. There are heterosexual and homosexual pedophiles. Some pedophiles are attracted to children of their own gender, while others are not. So, we cannot separate the two.

Here is another fact…

The great majority of abuse cases have not been rooted in pedophilia. They have been rooted in pederasty, which is the attraction to adolescent boys by older men.

Either way, you cannot separate homosexuality from the issue no matter how hard you try.

 

[puzzleannie]

I hope and pray that the Vatican repeals the Instruction on persons with homosexual orientation in view of entering the Seminary and the Holy Orders.

I think its unfair to equate pedo with gays as what was done by this instruction.

the instruction does not say that

 

[Barbkw]

The great majority of abuse cases have not been rooted in pedophilia.

They have been rooted in pederasty, which is the attraction to adolescent boys by older men.

Either way, you cannot separate homosexuality from the issue no matter how hard you try.

That is why - SSA men with noncelibate inclinations - can not be admitted into the seminary.

 

[LemonAndLime]

This is a fact that was pointed out by Fr. Benedict Groeschel on EWTN:

Pedophilia is not a separate orientation in itself. There are heterosexual and homosexual pedophiles. Some pedophiles are attracted to children of their own gender, while others are not. So, we cannot separate the two.

Here is another fact…

The great majority of abuse cases have not been rooted in pedophilia. They have been rooted in pederasty, which is the attraction to adolescent boys by older men.

Either way, you cannot separate homosexuality from the issue no matter how hard you try.

Excuse me - is this Priest also a scientist, or a psychologist?

If he is, then I will take his opinion seriously. If he is only a Priest, I would be interested to know what authority he has to give “facts” on human sexuality apparently based on a kind of science. What research has he done to show this?

Most official Psychologist associations recognise paedophilia as an orientation in itself. I think they perhaps have more authority than a Priest of the Church on these matters.

The Bible has never claimed to be a scientific textbook, therefore the Church and its clergy should never profess scientific facts based on belief.

 

[PatrickSebast]

This is a fact that was pointed out by Fr. Benedict Groeschel on EWTN:

Pedophilia is not a separate orientation in itself. There are heterosexual and homosexual pedophiles. Some pedophiles are attracted to children of their own gender, while others are not. So, we cannot separate the two.

Unfortunately, the great majority of abuse cases have not been rooted in pedophilia. They have been rooted in pederasty, which is the attraction to adolescent boys by older men.

Either way, you cannot separate homosexuality from the issue no matter how hard you try.

Many pedophiles who have a homosexual orientation towards children also claim adult heterosexual attractions. Pedophilia and homosexuality are completely separate, and pedophilia tends to involve several other mental deficiencies in most cases. Regardless there is no benefit in trying to blend the two, they are clearly separate and this much has been noted by the research and councils that the Church itself built and paid for.

Epedophilia or pedastry is very different though and does have a much stronger link to sexual orientation, thus the inability to completely separate them in that case. Of course like heterosexuals the majority of homosexuals have little to no interest in such things, they just happen to be a bit more likely than heterosexuals to either have or act on the attraction.

 

[GloriousOrder]

Why would anyone want a repeal of an instruction from the Holy See? This can only be an indication of disobedient on our parts, asking such a thing. If it’s correct and holy, why ask for it to be repealed? This isn’t a political platform or a Member of Parliament’s opinion here, but the wisdom of a great and holy Pope.

 

[Sonic]

Excuse me - is this Priest also a scientist, or a psychologist?

If he is, then I will take his opinion seriously. If he is only a Priest, I would be interested to know what authority he has to give “facts” on human sexuality apparently based on a kind of science. What research has he done to show this?

Most official Psychologist associations recognise paedophilia as an orientation in itself. I think they perhaps have more authority than a Priest of the Church on these matters.

The Bible has never claimed to be a scientific textbook, therefore the Church and its clergy should never profess scientific facts based on belief.

My understanding is that Fr. Benedict Groeschel has a degree in Psychology. Maybe you should become more acquainted with him. Not only does he owe his entrance into the priesthood because of St. Pio, he is also a very prolific writer and has done several programs for EWTN dealing with psychology and suffering (including reporting on the scandals in the priesthood).

 

[Sonic]

Many pedophiles who have a homosexual orientation towards children also claim adult heterosexual attractions. Pedophilia and homosexuality are completely separate, and pedophilia tends to involve several other mental deficiencies in most cases. Regardless there is no benefit in trying to blend the two, they are clearly separate and this much has been noted by the research and councils that the Church itself built and paid for.

Epedophilia or pedastry is very different though and does have a much stronger link to sexual orientation, thus the inability to completely separate them in that case. Of course like heterosexuals the majority of homosexuals have little to no interest in such things, they just happen to be a bit more likely than heterosexuals to either have or act on the attraction.

Sources?

 

[Cristiano]

So you are saying that homosexuality and paedophilia are one and the same?

Here’s an interesting fact. Most paedophiles are white men married to WOMEN.

Now what do you have to say about that?

I will not stand for CAF members stating, on completely groundless “facts”, that homosexuality and paedophilia are the same or potentially lead to each other. It does not reflect the actual facts. If a man was to sexually abuse a 4 year old girl does that make it a “typical” heterosexual act? No? Well, it’s not okay then to suggest that a male abusing a male 4 year old as homosexual. Both suggestions are unfair and inflammatory.

I think that the main point is that a lot of abuses performed by priests were not based on pedophilia but on homosexuality.

 

[LemonAndLime]

My understanding is that Fr. Benedict Groeschel has a degree in Psychology. Maybe you should become more acquainted with him. Not only does he owe his entrance into the priesthood because of St. Pio, he is also a very prolific writer and has done several programs for EWTN dealing with psychology and suffering (including reporting on the scandals in the priesthood).

Hmm, I shall look into it, thank you. Although I must add that for them to be broadcast on EWTN they must agree with Church teaching. I would be very suspicious of a scientific fact being broadcasted on a channel with a vested interest in one result.

 

[Friar_David_O.Carm]

That is why - SSA men with noncelibate inclinations - can not be admitted into the seminary.

No one with nonchaste (or noncelibate) inclinations regardless of sexual orientation are to be admitted to seminary or religious life, period.

 

[Cristiano]

Hmm, I shall look into it, thank you. Although I must add that for them to be broadcast on EWTN they must agree with Church teaching. I would be very suspicious of a scientific fact being broadcasted on a channel with a vested interest in one result.

I think that you are correct about always being skeptical about scientific facts that could be biased by non-scientific reasons. I would also add that psychology is not a science, maybe there are a very limited branches in psychology (e.g. some aspects of neuropsychology) that could be called scientific. However, even if it not a science it is a discipline and I think that your approach still makes sense to me.

 

[JHow]

… it’s not okay then to suggest that a male abusing a male 4 year old as homosexual. Both suggestions are unfair and inflammatory.

We’ve been through the ages before. Four-year olds comprised fewer than 1% of the victims of the priest scandals, per the John Jay report. More than half (53%) were over 13 years of age.

See Table 4.3.2 VICTIM’S AGE AT FIRST INSTANCE OF ABUSE under Part 4.3 Characteristics of children who alleged sexual abuse by Catholic priests

usccb.org/nrb/johnjaystudy/

From the summary…

The majority of alleged victims were post-pubescent, with only a small
percentage of priests receiving allegations of abusing young children.

I will not particpate in this debate. I would encourage everyone who likes to trot out the “pedophile” argument to look at the Jay study and think about what really happened, regardless of what conclusions you draw regarding the fitness or unfitness of homosexuals to serve in whatever capacity.

 

[Orogeny]

My understanding is that Fr. Benedict Groeschel has a degree in Psychology.

Indeed he does.

“He is professor of pastoral psychology at St. Joseph’s Seminary in New York and an adjunct professor at the Institute for Psychological Sciences in Arlington, Virginia.”

“He received a Masters Degree in Counseling from Iona College in 1964 and a Doctorate in Psychology from Columbia University in 1971.”

from here: franciscanfriars.com/books/Fr_Benedict_Bio.htm

Peace

Tim